◊ zeidrich

The largest problem I have seen, before any terrain imbalances is attitude.

The #1 most heard phrase in an alliance bg in my battlegroup is "God, Alliance is RETARDED!" You hear it ingame, you hear it in the forums, you hear it everywhere. Why would you ever listen to, back up, help, or heal a bunch of retards?

The thing that the horde and the alliance both have in common? They hate alliance.

I do believe that the map is somewhat imbalanced. But not to the extent that causes us to get into such nasty losing streaks. The real problem is after losing a couple of games, we get easily demoralized, and resort to calling the whole faction a bunch of useless retards. And once everyone starts thinking that the whole faction is a bunch of useless retards that can never win a game, they stop trying. They start AFKing, they start just zerging with the shortbus group, and wiping on Galv until horde has taken everything up to the aid station.

Yes, terrain plays a great role in it. But I have won games despite that. But I rarely win anything when the majority of people want to lay down, close their eyes, and let the horde get it over with quickly.

 

Angerz

Hey, at least I can knock horde off the bridge with snowballs for the duration of the holiday.

 

Sindrath

Horde on Shadowsong EU (BG: Cyclone) ran 40 man pre's from 3pm yesterday until about 12pm. We barely even used tactics, just defend Galv and take everything on the way up to SP. Alliance die and res so far away while attacking Galv that eventually, it results in lots of them defending and our Galv team capping everyting down South. The bridge is a nightmare sometimes if we don't push quick enough, but generally this BG is a cakewalk. 606 was the number we were averaging for bonus honour, sometimes more sometimes less marginally.

The problem with AV for your general PUGer these days is, I genuinely don't think your avergae player understands how the game works.

 

Robespierre

I have, on my rogue, recaptured Stonehearth graveyard, bunker and Icewing bunker over and over again. Sometimes other Alliance players understand why I am doing so and help out and it usually leads to a win for the Alliance.

Usually when Stonehearth falls or is delayed in capture the Horde charging Stormpike are too delayed to mount another offensive and get stuck defending their graveyards from an Alliance assault.

Only once, with the help of two rogues, a night elf priest and a hunter have I ever defended Balinda and the graveyards/bunkers but the Horde that day sent such a token force to Balinda that it was easy to wipe out their two healers before their two DPS could save them.

The complaints about the length of AV amuse me, considering several times I would leave for work and come back to see the same AV going back during the original version of AV.

Clay: Orel, love gets in the way of the important things in life - like going to sleep or being left alone.

 

Cwealm

This is the difference between alliance and horde pvp that I have experienced as well. I think I may just quit pvping on my alliance toon (I can't even beg guild mates to arena consistently, alliance is so uninterested in pvp on my server) and solely raid on my alliance mage since it is way to late in the game to get my horde toon geared for raiding, and quite honestly, I don't have it in me to join a guild to learn kara and ssc and tk again. And no guild with those on farm is going to take someone without the gear, so raiding is probably out of the question.

Regardless, your two paragraphs summarizes two years of alliance pvp. After just a few weeks on my horde toon, I simply do not understand how I put up with it for two years as alliance.

See above. If the shoe fits...

 

Hudini

I've never played Alliance, but we get this kind of attitude on Horde side as well. Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but I really feel like setting up a couple well-reasoned macros and being communicative makes a difference. I've been doing this in my battlegroup when I have the energy and it results in very engaging games. I sorta "take the reigns" directing defense, reminding people by quoting timers and suggesting a course of action. I play the cheerleader too, sending out "nice job defense!" and "good work offense, keep it moving!" Keeping a positive, can-do attitude makes a big difference in peoples' performance. There are always naysayers and negative Nancys who just want to cap a tower, sit there, and either afk or flame /bg, but there are others who actually do want to play the game and PvP. The latter will listen to you and work together.

I kinda don't buy the idea that alliance are weaker simply because they are alliance. We are, by-and-large, the same kinds of people, the same kinds of gamers, and the cross-section of our opposing populations, I think, should look almost identical.

For what its worth, I've been noticing a change in alliance strategy since we started enforcing the IBChoke. Alliance are starting to take their time, sitting on IBTower with a massive unity until it caps, then doing the same with IBGY... I've even seen some successful SHGY defensives being put up against us.

 

◊ zeidrich

Honestly though, is this the symptom or the cause?

Obviously a bunch of apathetic players are going to be terrible.

As a player who has played on both sides, I don't believe I am personally a better player when I'm on the horde side.

 

Cwealm

I agree with you. I don't think I am any better on the horde side, either, and said so earlier up the thread. But I sure can attest the experience is night and day. Regardless, this is starting to derail this thread into WoW forum QQ.

 

Melador

Honest question: is there ever a bottleneck south of Iceblood Graveyard? I've seen the occasional one at IBGY, and obviously the main one south of Stormpike Graveyard.

 

Illundai

Odd, I did AV all day (skipping sleep during AV weekend = $$$) and I had no issues getting honor. We lost the occasional one, but over 85% of them were wins. The horde in our BG doesn't know of the defending IB/Galv thing yet, thank god. I'll be glad when I'm done farming my honor before they find out. I'm not sure where you get the cakewalk idea from, considering you premade AV, then every pug is a cakewalk is it not?
Although, met a Ravencrest premade a few times yesterday who just rushed Vanndar. Which I didn't mind, since they let us kill Galv, we let them kill Belinda and Vanndar, we both go out with about 350 Honor in less than 3 minutes. I'm not complaining.

Yes, Death Knight tanks are/were too good in 3.0.x. Having 38k HP, 76.81% Avoidance (Miss incl.) and not gimping your threat in the first tier of gear is broken. (Yes this is clickable)

 

Spatula

You've never been south of Iceblood? If you're familiar with the map you know there are no chokepoints between Iceblood and the horde base. The horde base itself has one semi-chokepoint (the gate at the base of the archer towers), but that was ruined when the tower in front of the gate was changed to longer dismount people. And really, the only factor that ever made it effective in the first place was that assaulters got dismounted leading up to it. It's too short to stop mounted attackers, the extreme slope causes LOS problems for the defenders, the size of the gate itself creates vision issues for defenders (you all basically have to be standing on top of each other in order to target people coming up the slope, which is an issue when playing with tauren), and wounded assaulters can take refuge in the no-longer-considered-"inside" tower.

 

Hudini

I've had a completely different experience with this choke-point. I find the building prevents offensive forces from knowing what they're riding into. If I'm lucky enough to have a well-organized defense at that point it becomes a veritable meat-grinder for Alliance. We have hunters drop ice traps, shaman drop earthbind, mages sheep, you name it. Once they're slowed down, long-range artillery bombs them from a safe distance and can use the gate to drop line-of-sight on potential counterattacks. A few hunters and mages make this area quite the death-trap. If alliance retreats into the building, we have options for ambushing them from the left side... surrounding them from the entrance and exit... then it's fun with AoE time. All the while, the archers from the towers do a good job softening the targets.

Basically, the disadvantages you've cited can easily be seen as an advantage. Allies can ride through at 30% speed letting the whole defense beat the crap out of them unanswered, or (as they usually do) they dismount, freak out and die.

 

Roe

You're not kidding about Eitrigg. Very, very hard to find people with a constant interest in PvP, and who are even willing to PvP spec while PvPing. I almost never run into people in BG's from the same server.

The server is great, if you're into casual alt leveling. Illidan (sp) isn't even dead yet.

 

Spatula

They don't need to see when they can ride right by it. Sure, you'll catch a few of them, maybe most. If (for example), five alliance make it through - and they don't have that much ground to cover - you now have to choose between holding the gate or keeping your graveyard. If people run back to defend the graveyard, you're going to get overwhelmed at the gate. If they do not, you lose your respawn point. The distance from the tower (where you cannot target the attackers) to the gate is too short to keep a concentrated assault at bay.

(also, you don't have to pass through the gate to get to the Relief Hut)

 

Sindrath

Apologies for the confusion, I should have expanded that point a little. I was referring to the fact that with a little organisation and understanding of the mechanics of the BG, it's a total cake walk. Getting everyone on your team on the same page seems to be the issue. Everyone has their own idea of what works (when puging) and aren't prepared to hear any different.

 

Crowl

There you see the difference between a pug and a premade though, Alliance tends to do better than Horde in that BG in my experience. Horde victories in that battlegroup tend to be where they outraced the alliance.

Probably the main thing that keeps things the way it is in that battlegroup is that win or lose, both factions tend to get a couple of bunkers and the opposition captain so a fast loss works for both of them with the Horde having shorter queues to offset their greater number of losses.

On the subject of faction differences, people have mentioned horde being more willing to heal than alliance, this overlooks the obvious point that Horde usually have more healers in a battleground.

 

UnholY_Prince

Gonna agree that attitude, not terrain imbalances are the plague of AV. In BG9, the current AV is 90% wins for Horde, with Hour and a Half long ques. Half of the alliance AFKs in the cave because they don't feel they can win. Instead of changing their strats, they simply gave up.

The reason I know this is because Horde did the same thing back before the AFK changes, the situations were entirely reversed, we had instant ques but lost almost every game, and no one wanted to try to change it, they just AFKed or didn't que. Once that mentality sets in that "there's nothing I can do," its game over.

That's why I disregard cries of terrain imbalance as the cause of the problems in AV, because I've seen both sides. Four months ago, Horde lost every game and cried terrain imbalance, and Alliance said to suck it up and work out a better strategy. Now those same Alliance are crying terrain imbalance, and those same Horde are saying what the Alliance used to say. What's worse is self-righteous Horde people feeling good about their wins and downtalking Alliance, calling them pansies for not queing, when they did the exact same thing. People can't seem to realize that the other faction is human beings not much different than themselves.

 

Lodekim

Looking at some of the newer posts, YES, attitude makes it worse, but it started because of the imbalances, on stormstrike, I have stopped queueing because alliance don't win, it started when horde figured out the tactic that gave us 0 honor, and you're right, the alliance haven't gone and figured out tactics to get past it, and stopped caring. But the thing is, it requires us to simply play better than horde to win at the moment, and given that the alliance pugs on Stormstrike generally have minimal healing (if any) while it's true, horde has every paladin pretty much specced healing, plus a good portion of their other healers.

Attitude makes it worse, but it's still something that needs to be looked into, because pretty soon AV is just going to be a waste of time for everyone on BG 5 and 9, because alliance will queue less and less, and horde queues will become longer and longer. It should not be possible for two semi equally matched teams to lead to shut out games, and that's the issue.

 

Prismite

Unfortunately, I have to agree with Lodekim. Our battlegroup really does horrible these days.

I used to love AV for the massive honor gains. I abhor AV now. I have done 34 games since the new patch. I've been in 2 winning one. In both of those winning ones we netted about 300 TOTAL honor. Thats HK's and Bonus honor. In all the losses I'm seeing maybe 100, if were very lucky. I've been in more than a dozen where there was NO bonus honor.

Admittedly, I'm a mediocre player (at best), but I try to travel with the herd because alone I'm just target practice. Lately this BG leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

 

Melador

Well, yeah, the game rules have changed. Before reinforcements a stormpike turtle game was utterly pointless because it would drag on potentially forever -- now it's a viable (and typical) way for Horde to win because of tower locations and the bottleneck just south of stormpike.

When the accepted strategy was to just rush the opposing general, Alliance was favored because of how much easier the Horde base is to attack.

The problem is, general-rushing is STILL the best tactic for honor-per-hour, but it means that Horde are going to lose the majority of the games and, somewhat understandably, they're not willing to do that, so they end up hurting (or destroying on some BGs) the honor gains of both sides.

 

diotox

Well another thing to consider was that back when horde was losing the majority of AVs, we still got great honor from destroying towers and killing lieutenants. A lot of the games, the difference in the amount of honor the winner got and the loser got was only like 40 honor. Some games the loser would actually get more bonus honor if the winning side just blasted the general before letting towers blow up. Now, the way alliance is losing games, they are getting very little honor. The situation at first glance might just be reversed, but the amount of honor gained by the losing side in each case is very different. I can't blame alliance at all for not queueing anymore. Yeah, it sucked when we lost most AVs, but the difference in honor compared to winning was so small, and individuals could solo lieutenants or ninja towers no matter how many AFK or useless people were in the game. That made it tolerable for me. If I was alliance right now there's no way in hell I would be joining AV anymore.

 

Melador

So, strange thing happening on Vindication today -- the horde are rushing even more than normal, taking down Vann as soon as the second bunker is destroyed. We typically barely manage to cap TP when we lose -- Horde earning about 200 bonus honor, us about 100.

I suppose that works for Horde assuming they have no queues, but for Alliance who are seeing 9-10 minute queues, honor gains even in rush games are only about 6-700 per hour now.

 

horzy

It has been weeks now since I last did an AV on Stormstrike. I have watched the commentary here with some interest and particularly the Horde complaints about long Cue times for the AV. Part of my concern was the apparent inequality of honor buildup between the Horde and the Alliance. I am not writing this note to compare strategies nor the fairness or lack there of for the maps.

I have been noticing more and more lately that the horde seem to be better geared than the alliance in the AB, EOTS and WSG runs I have been making. It is my belief that the imbalance of honor from AV is now spilling over into better geared Horde and an over all imbalance across the board in the other BG events. I might give an example of my evening a few days ago where it took me 8 attempts to win the daily. I believe that particular day it was EOTS. From what I can see, the same is becoming more and more true.

I am curious to see if anyone else has noticed this phenomena. I dont begrudge the Horde their gear at all. It is much funner when I win a fight against a decently geared player. I do feel a lot more squishy though when I am not much more than a bit of road kill.

I would like to commend the Horde that I have seen however. I almost never see a solo flag runner, I dont see the alliance flag attacked by a solo player much either. I am beginning to suspect that Teamwork is a Horde word many alliance folks have never learned. It doesnt seem to matter if it is WSG, EOTS, or AB. The same seems to be the case across the board. If only the alliance would stop playing in such an embarrassing manner.

I once had a young man comment to me during a high level bowling league that he hated bowling against the older players. His rational was that " those old farts just wont quit." I have to wonder if immaturity is one of the defining characteristics of many stormstrike alliance players.

I am Hrzk and I am old enough to know better.

 

Calantus

Even though people harp on about it way too much, positive thinking is pretty huge for performance. WoW players in general have had for a long time the feeling that alliance are terrible at PVP and now with losing the one BG we always had for so long that's going to hit harder than ever. People are much more likely to give up if they believe they are going to lose no matter what. People feel that alliance just lose anyway so why bother? Solo efforts are also much more likely when you feel your team is incompetant. I think a situation like we have in bloodlust and stormstrike is very, very bad in that it's going to slowly go through the entire alliance and break their fighting spirit. Alliance PUGs slowly become more dejected and defeatist and it just spirals from there to where only premades win for alliance.

 

Questioner

I'm sorry to the alliance people (and to me for the queue times I've created) but I haven't seen any REAL effort by alliance to implement an effective strategy. The time I've wound up in an AV against an alliance premade all of a sudden its 534-100 in favor of the alliance, which seems to tell me that when playing against a group with some idea of what they are doing its going to be a rough game.

Why do I seriously question how much the map effects things? Because I have rarely seen anything but the default strategy of "Everyone ride around Balinda, touch SF and the into Galv/IBT/IBGY and die." I've lost one game to a defense at SH. It was a slow game, about 40 minutes, but Allies won. I've only seen and lost one game to an all out zerg on IBGY early on...where the allies backcapped everything we had. Which is the exact same strategy we use except going South.

Even comments on here indicate to me Alliance forces aren't really trying to win. And if you aren't trying, its no wonder, probably nobody else on your team is trying. If you care only about the honor you are getting and not about winning, why should I care when I beat you 600-0?

Why do allies let me ride all the way to Dun Baldar North, often 2-3 minutes before anyone tries to cap it back. I ride past allies at Icewing, I ride past them at their spawn cave, I ride past them sitting at SP...nobody tries to stop me until I've tapped a tower. Since the patch Horde will kill ANYONE riding south. Why haven't allies adapted to this strategy?

Allies are complaining about getting bottlenecked at the Icewing Hill, but I've never seen anyone of them ride on the upper side, the path I use when starting the game. Its exactly the same when Horde is trying to get into SP and the mindless masses run straight through the middle road of doom. Every good Horde knows to go high road or under the bridge.

How come nobody ever mentions the amazing bottleneck that is the south side of IBGY? If you are a Horde trapped South of an alliance IBGY, you are going to get slaughtered.

Ok, so Horde has a big defense at IBGY....settle in at SH and let strike teams spark the offense. How about you send 3 stealthers to a bypass the IBGY and pick off FWGY and then Tower Point. You'll split the Horde Defense, leaving IBGY open to attack. I just do not see the strategy coming into play, people would rather hope a quick win happens, or try again.

PS: The snowballs are awesome. Cap a tower and position yourself on an outer edge. Fight someone for awhile, then get inside the tower, and snowball knockback them off, often to their death.