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11/23/07, 4:23 PM
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#16
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Juli
It may not be enough to win the match for you, but I'd think that feral charging poly -> cyclone while arcane is locked out could be good (it does lock out CS right?), effectively killing two birds with one stone; or two stones depending on how you look at it. :P
Possibly even bash -> cyclone, since hes got bash gcd (1.5s) + cyclone cast time (1.5s) = 3 sec to get out of stun and CS you, and 1.5 of that is consumed by the blink GCD to get out of the stun unless he trinkets. Factor in latency and he's got about 1.3s to react, blink, and start mashing CS with you targeted (and if you know the mage you're playing is quick enough to do that you can always try to fake it out and waste the CS).
Maybe not match-defining, but a nice tool for the toolbox nonetheless.
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CS is in the arcane tree with polymorph, so feral charging works to block his CS. Bashing doesn't really work at high levels of play; CS is off the GCD so a good mage will blink/CS.
Your best bet against that is to go for a cyclone when your warlocks has a 3 stack of bloom on him or isn't in immediate danger.
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11/23/07, 5:17 PM
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#17
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Don Flamenco
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CS is off the GCD but does not ignore the GCD, correct (you can't fire blast -> CS in a single button press macro, but you can CS -> fire blast, from my understanding)? So the point stands that even if he blinks out hes got 1.3s max to react, and if you know your opponent is quick enough on the draw you can either start a cyclone and cancel it immediately, or just shift out of bear and hope he instinctively CS's after being conditioned to expect you to cyclone after bash. Either way, yeah, feral charge poly is the better way to do it and on a shorter cooldown.
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11/23/07, 9:07 PM
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#18
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Bald Bull
Blood Elf Paladin
Mal'Ganis
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CS is on a completely separate cooldown; its like paladin judgements. A mage can use it anytime as long as the cooldown is up and he isn't currently casting.
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11/24/07, 4:04 AM
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#19
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Von Kaiser
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I'd also like to say that after playing against some better teams we don't feel we can reliably beat a good PMR team. 1.5m blind with all the cooldowns an ar/prep rogue has now is insane. We can't really touch it.
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11/24/07, 4:20 AM
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#20
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Sour Bear Mojo
Mex
Tauren Shaman
No WoW Account
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I would assume in that match up that the mage would have the druid focused, and use a CS focus macro, seeing as how the rogue can be relied upon to lock out any non-instants the warlock tries.
And yeah, I think the key to winning that match up is wearing them down, but it's also probably worth trying to get some cyclones off somehow, through range / LoS. Oh, and kill the WE.
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11/24/07, 8:39 AM
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#21
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King Hippo
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Originally Posted by Encross
We tried that. Just keep in mind that the mage -will- frost nova after sheep is dispelled, so I'll be rooted in place for 9 seconds. Even if my warlock jumps on top of me the Rogue can dodge around.
Edit: On top of that, there is Evasion eating through my damage.
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Was your druid using feral charge as a counterspell for the Priest or Mage's casts? Was he using bash or warstomp (I didn't check to see if you were Horde or Alliance) to chain into a cyclone? Was he ever going into cat form during a bash to get a single combo point to use main as an interupt for their next spell? Did you try getting onto Ming yourself to Hamstring or just plain do some damage to give your Warlock some breathing room?
Your biggest weakness is that you lack a dispell, which I'm sure I don't have to tell you, but your team's Crowd Control should be just as potent as their's. Did you try and change tactics at all, or were you on the priest every fight while the warlock was left kiting the Rogue and the Mage was left untouched? I would think you would want to have your warlock keeping the mage out of the fight as much as possible while your druid locks down the Priest and you keep Ming under control. They know your Druid cannot possibly hope to keep up with a Rogue's burst, so you have to do whatever you can to keep them from bursting your Warlock. Unfortunately this leaves you with a Druid/Priest or Druid/Mage match up, so you have to choose between mana drains and heals getting off or roots, snares, and sheep. Since the latter hurts you (as a Warrior) the most, and counterspell can really do some damage to the Druid, you will probably want your Warlock handling lockdown on the mage with your druid filling in with Feral Charge, Bash, and Main when absolutely necessary. This means your druid will have to dodge mana burns and the priest will be allowed to do a lot of healing. It also depends a lot on the map, but in Nagrand it is a lot easier to root and cyclone a Rogue when you have a pillar to hide from the Mage during casts.
One last thing though - did you kill the Ice Pet everytime it was summoned?
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11/24/07, 9:17 AM
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#22
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Piston Honda
Undead Warrior
Boulderfist
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Originally Posted by Errelno
I'd also like to say that after playing against some better teams we don't feel we can reliably beat a good PMR team. 1.5m blind with all the cooldowns an ar/prep rogue has now is insane. We can't really touch it.
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I think this is probably a good chunk of the problem. I've lost a ton of rating on all my teams in the 2 weeks since 2.3 came out just because Blind is so ridiculous now. Granted, I don't really even have the rights to be speaking in a 2400 arena thread, but having a blind that is for all intents and purposes only removable by a pvp trinket that is on a cooldown that's shorter than the pvp trinket is a little bit insane. The CC chains you can set up with an unremovable blind are pretty harsh, and it's also effectively a nerf to the PvP trinket. If you're fighting a rogue team, it might as well just be "Removes every other Blind" because you can't possibly risk using it more than that.
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11/24/07, 11:02 AM
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#23
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Rogue About Town
Troll Rogue
The Venture Co (EU)
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Not every rogue takes 1.5m blind, even those who have specced 0/31/30. Me, for example.
I don't often use my blind before someone has blown a trinket on something anyway, and the match is likely decided 1.5 minutes after that first blind anyway.
Am I totally wrong to think this?
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11/24/07, 11:07 AM
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#24
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Mike Tyson
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If you're on a 3 DPS team or something, sure. Otherwise 90sec really isn't that long, and to blind someone and force them to trinket and then know for a fact that they have no outs when your blind comes back up is pretty huge.
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11/24/07, 11:30 AM
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#25
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Rogue About Town
Troll Rogue
The Venture Co (EU)
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Originally Posted by Praetorian
If you're on a 3 DPS team or something, sure. Otherwise 90sec really isn't that long, and to blind someone and force them to trinket and then know for a fact that they have no outs when your blind comes back up is pretty huge.
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I think this encapsulates our current problem. Afflock/Rogue/Resto Shaman is limited in two ways- our afflock has to play defensively or he dies (even though it's the most offensive 'lock PvP spec), I can burst and am mobile, but with the 'lock just trying to survive, it's not enough to kill someone.... and yet we can't play the long game because after our shaman has trinketed, used grounding and used NS, he will take a full 10 second+ CC somewhere and one of us will die (before my second Blind would be up, even if it was 1.5m). It's very frustrating!
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11/24/07, 11:31 AM
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#26
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Piston Honda
Undead Warrior
Boulderfist
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Originally Posted by Tiiki
Not every rogue takes 1.5m blind, even those who have specced 0/31/30. Me, for example.
I don't often use my blind before someone has blown a trinket on something anyway, and the match is likely decided 1.5 minutes after that first blind anyway.
Am I totally wrong to think this?
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Well, look at it from the person you're facing's perspective.
We CAN'T trinket out of that KS, or Cyclone or whatever now, because if there's a rogue on the other side, we need to save that trinket for blind. Basically just having a rogue on the other team now totally dictates whether it's okay for me to use my trinket or not. That's a pretty huge advantage there.
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11/24/07, 11:32 AM
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#27
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Rogue About Town
Troll Rogue
The Venture Co (EU)
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I think the same about intimidating shout (and very often save my trinket for that), since it's the only way I can ever get out of it-- and yours is AoE, so what's the big deal, really?
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11/24/07, 11:42 AM
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#28
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Bald Bull
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Because there are multitude of counters to Intimidating Shout and only one to Blind?
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11/24/07, 11:52 AM
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#29
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Mike Tyson
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Pretty much. Blind is the best CC in the game right now. As the sole healer in a 3v3, if I get blinded and cannot trinket it, the game is almost certainly over (assuming they used the blind at a remotely reasonable time). That in turn modifies my style of play. I might ride out a fear or poly if no one is going to die that very second, because I know that if I use my trinket on any lesser CC, I will get blinded (and often have that blind chained into something else like a silence or fear as blind is about to wear off) and we will lose. With the new PMR, you can really control one-healer teams between psychic scream, poly, and blind. The second their healer pops his trinket after, say, eating a fear, the other team is about to be in serious trouble.
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11/24/07, 11:59 AM
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#30
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Von Kaiser
Tauren Warrior
Magtheridon (EU)
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How many counters are there to cyclone and whats the cooldown on this spell? =)
It doesn't even matter if the target has dots running or stands in AE, cyclone still works. Blind is strong now, yes i admit that, but after 3 years of frustrating poison cleansing totem, abolish poison and stoneskin removal of our only relieable CC on a 3 min CD it was about time imo.
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