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Old 11/24/07, 12:19 PM   #31
doogless
Don Flamenco
 
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Draenei Shaman
 
Kil'Jaeden
The counter to Cyclone is focusing the Druid so he's forced to heal, or Counterspelling/Earth Shocking/etc the cast. It also requires 3.5 seconds of casting time to last as long as blind. I realize you're not being completely serious in that objection, but Blind and Cyclone are very different, despite sharing DR and being unremovable.

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Old 11/24/07, 12:23 PM   #32
♦ Praetorian
Mike Tyson
 
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Orc Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
Cyclone has a cast time, can be Grounded (and if I'm facing a druid I have him focused to shock/ground as many of these as possible), has a shorter duration, and requires perfect (unrealistic) timing to chain into other forms of lockdown without any gap, because of the immunity effect that accompanies it.

If I'm blinded I can get feared when I have 1sec left on my blind, and then silenced as my fear ends. If I'm cycloned, good luck managing that before my NS macro goes off in the split second I have as cyclone ends. That can make all the difference right there.

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Old 11/24/07, 8:39 PM   #33
 Mex
Sour Bear Mojo
 
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Mex
Tauren Shaman
 
No WoW Account
Shadow sight to protect against Blind / Poly is great. Beats BoSac anyday!

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Old 11/25/07, 1:53 AM   #34
Encross
Von Kaiser
 
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Blood Elf Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
Spec'ing Felguard was definatly a step in the right direction. We only lost to one PMR out of seven over the course of the night.

For any other similar line-ups struggling with PMR; have your Warrior split his damage on whatever is closest to him. The key is to have your Warlock timing a perfect death coil that will let your Warrior intercept for 5 seconds of breathing room. During that time, we would abolish crippling poison and hamstring kite the Rogue through his sprints and trinkets.


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Old 11/27/07, 3:54 AM   #35
Vermis
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Mage
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
Originally Posted by Mex View Post
Shadow sight to protect against Blind / Poly is great. Beats BoSac anyday!
as pmr has priest the sight can be dispelled, so thats about it. I find it problematic that this setup doesnt have any real counters and in 2.3.1 when mages get icy veins its allmost 1-shotting ppl when the healer gets locked. Imagine this cs druid/priest/pala/any healer, PI to mage pop elemental and IV rogue pops ar and blinds the last guy. How you survive that? With loads of defensive/offensive dispel they can drag it to wait game at some point that cs will be eaten.

Just makes me anxious to join the train in s3

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Old 11/27/07, 4:24 AM   #36
Abakus
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Alexstrasza (EU)
I think a priest with two felguard-locks might be able to counter PMR.

Without offensive and defensive dispell as well as strong defensive DD (preferable no melee) i can't imagine fighting this team (assuming equal skill).

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Old 11/27/07, 4:30 AM   #37
 Mex
Sour Bear Mojo
 
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Mex
Tauren Shaman
 
No WoW Account
Hrmmmm, I could have sworn shadow sight couldn't be dispelled. Either it wasn't classed as a magic buff or it was classed as a debuff, so only an ally could dispel it. I may just be crazy though.

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Old 11/27/07, 4:39 AM   #38
Abakus
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Alexstrasza (EU)
Shadow Sight

Can't go and check it within the next few hours, but i think Shadow Sight is a) a debuff and b) not dispellable..

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Old 11/27/07, 4:44 AM   #39
Mearis
Mr. Sandman
 
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Dwarf Priest
 
Defias Brotherhood (EU)
Originally Posted by Tiiki View Post
I think this encapsulates our current problem. Afflock/Rogue/Resto Shaman is limited in two ways- our afflock has to play defensively or he dies (even though it's the most offensive 'lock PvP spec), I can burst and am mobile, but with the 'lock just trying to survive, it's not enough to kill someone.... and yet we can't play the long game because after our shaman has trinketed, used grounding and used NS, he will take a full 10 second+ CC somewhere and one of us will die (before my second Blind would be up, even if it was 1.5m). It's very frustrating!
Have the warlock respec SL/SL - affliction only makes sense as a build in the context of protecting other classes DoT.

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Old 11/27/07, 4:56 AM   #40
Kaber
King Hippo
 
Tauren Druid
 
Stormreaver
Originally Posted by Vermis View Post
as pmr has priest the sight can be dispelled, so thats about it. I find it problematic that this setup doesnt have any real counters and in 2.3.1 when mages get icy veins its allmost 1-shotting ppl when the healer gets locked. Imagine this cs druid/priest/pala/any healer, PI to mage pop elemental and IV rogue pops ar and blinds the last guy. How you survive that? With loads of defensive/offensive dispel they can drag it to wait game at some point that cs will be eaten.

Just makes me anxious to join the train in s3
Actually I'm curious if Hunter/Priest/Rogue might be able to beat it. It's only 1 class away, though, so I don't know that you could properly call it a counter even if there was a chance they could win. Just to mess around I did a test run with alts this week - my 2v2 Warrior's poorly geared Priest, my poorly geared Hunter, and a decently geared Rogue. It was interesting, because we seemed to be bursting other teams rather than playing the longevity game like I was expecting. But this was at low ratings since we were just messing around. I'm also not sure on where I stand with the spec for my Hunter or the Priest. He tried full Holy then full Discipline, but his gear was so bad it did not really make any difference in his survivability that we could see. If this turns out to be more of a burst team, I may try Beast Mastery instead of Marksman since I would not need to protect Viper sting as much. Anyway, I just found it interesting, and I'm curious to see how it actually stacks up in theory or practice with people that might have more experience on a PMR or PHR.

Last edited by Kaber : 11/27/07 at 5:06 AM.

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Old 11/27/07, 5:06 AM   #41
Abakus
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Alexstrasza (EU)
Originally Posted by Kaber
Actually I'm curious if Hunter/Priest/Rogue might be able to beat it. It's only 1 class away, though, so I don't know that you could properly call it a counter even if there was a chance they could win.
You will be able to outlast them, but with the changes to the mage class, i think the team with the mage will be the winner (counterspell, icy veins, good usage of PI, poly).

Sooner or later the priest will eat a poly, and when he uses his trinket, he is vulnerable to blind.
Within that timespan, the hunter will be in serious trouble...

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Old 11/27/07, 6:13 AM   #42
Currylaksa
Piston Honda
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Gorgonnash
Have the warlock respec SL/SL - affliction only makes sense as a build in the context of protecting other classes DoT.
Atm, SL doesn't begin to mitigate the burst that new-improved rogues and PIed mages are dishing out.

Was your druid using feral charge as a counterspell for the Priest or Mage's casts? Was he using bash or warstomp (I didn't check to see if you were Horde or Alliance) to chain into a cyclone? Was he ever going into cat form during a bash to get a single combo point to use main as an interupt for their next spell?
Charging into the midst can open up a fear blind combo on you, which is good game.

It's a multitude of dilemmas here. Charge and you might get chain-CCed, don't charge and the warrior gets sheeped. Cyclone and you might be CSed, don't cyclone and your healing might not keep up. Expose to heal and you get mana burned, heal conservatively and your hots/abolish gets dispelled.

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Old 11/27/07, 7:53 AM   #43
Tiiki
Rogue About Town
 
Troll Rogue
 
<Moo>
The Venture Co (EU)
Stupid question here- but is it the case, therefore, that one SHOULD purge spam against druid healing? I was always of the impression that spammed lifebloom being continually purged made this more than selfdefeating? Especially as lifebloom is insanely cheap and heals for a big chunk on each dispel?

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Old 11/27/07, 8:54 AM   #44
♦ Praetorian
Mike Tyson
 
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Orc Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Tiiki View Post
Stupid question here- but is it the case, therefore, that one SHOULD purge spam against druid healing? I was always of the impression that spammed lifebloom being continually purged made this more than selfdefeating? Especially as lifebloom is insanely cheap and heals for a big chunk on each dispel?
It depends on your situation. If you're just doing it randomly in a mana war of attrition, that's probably not a very good idea. You're wasting your mana. But if the target is getting focused, then yes, a lifebloom popping every GCD isn't going to be enough healing to keep him up. That forces the druid to do something else, with a cast time. Either start casting regrowths or cyclone/roots (or blow his NS which is a temporary answer), which opens him up to interrupts and lockout. My logic is that if I have the upper hand in terms of dictating the pace (i.e. I'm in a position where I'm able to dispel instead of frantically spamming heals or something) then I want to pressure the druid. A druid with a safe set of HoTs on his target can turn his attention to more offensive/utility play, duck out of combat to drink, etc. A druid with no HoTs at all on his target needs to pay much more attention to healing.

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Old 11/27/07, 1:16 PM   #45
Mirya
Glass Joe
 
Human Warlock
 
Windrunner
As a warlock, I finished season 2 at 1992 rating with a rogue, druid, warlock group in 3v3. I definitely recommend that warlocks try out felguard spec for 3v3 and 5v5. It has good synergy with warrior & rogue teammates, as the felguard benefits from battle shout and hemorrhage. More importantly, the felguard allows the warlock to continue to do DPS and thus apply pressure to opponents while the warlock himself is being locked down by a melee class.

The felguard's melee and cleave attacks together causes a good amount of spell pushback when put on a priest or mage. If the warlock also maintains CoT on that target, it effectively locks them down to casting nothing but instants. A felguard will cause a mage a lot of trouble, as its Avoidance ability gives it a 50% chance to resist AoE effects - that includes frost nova, which is one of the few ways a mage can get away from a felguard. It's very hard for a mage to cast polymorph when he has both CoT and a felguard damaging him causing spell pushback. Ice barrier might help a mage against spell pushback against a felhunter, but a felguard will do enough damage to drop the ice barrier in short order. Especially on a team without any defensive dispels to remove a mage's CC (ie if you use a druid or shaman healer yourself), the felguard will put a lot of pressure on the mage - just be sure to keep CoT up on all times on the mage as well.

My felguard has about 225 resists to all spells in arena, thanks to the Void Star Talisman trinket and my druid teammate's mark of the wild buff. With the exception of the 2v2 bracket, I think felguard will really start to shine as one of the better specs for warlocks in arena season 3.

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