I've personally been trying a PMR combo for about 100 games yesterday, but we managed to lose about half the games, even with fairly decent gear, around 400 resilience for everyone, rogue was daggers but ended up with s1 maces for the second half of the games. We generally lose when either, I (the priest) get's taken down in like 4-5 seconds, like from a 3 dps team like rogue/lock/spriest where I don't get out of stun/dcoil before dying instantly, or their 2 dpsers manage to eliminate my rogue or me before I can really do anything. Any general tips on playing the combo, or against the majority of combos we will have trouble with?
You need to play to your teams strengths compared to the oposing team. PMR has alot of control and burst. It can even win the long game against some teams since you have a mana burn and they may not. Against 3 dps you have less burst but more CC so I believe your best bet would be to CC in the opening stages and wear down one of their dps slowly since they have no healers.
We've been running the Pal/DiscPst/war setup also and have ton pretty well against the PMR teams. The only real danger that this team presents is their "nova" or cooldown explosion. You need to be very aggressive and clear with your defensive cooldowns to win. I'd say about 80% of the time they focus our priest. We actually use freedom on the priest to kite the rogue (protected with fecundity buffs if possible), stuns, BoP, Pain Suppression, or bubble (for big uncounterable heals) during those. You do have you keep your warrior on the mage as much as possible, though, which means your priest needs to be aggressively dispelling offensively and defensively, and doing almost nothing else besides instant heals and opportunistic mana burns. If your warrior is on the mage, he won't be able to do an effective shatter combo because he won't be able to cast, which is really the key.
I find it funny how pally/priest/war plays completely differently against PMR then Druid/Priest/War does. We have our warrior go for their priest, he is kept clean of poly via priests dispells, who is kept clean of rogues via abolish and cyclone on the rogue. The moment the WE is out I cyclone the mage and the warrior kills the WE before he can burst with it. Even if they CS the cyclone, wich I cast mid frostbolt cast to buy ~1 second, i then feral charge the next frostbolt to buy enough time to get the cyclone off after the School lock effect. I mean, yeah of course it changes depending upon the oposing teams actions (does the rogue immediately trinket that first cyclone? Keeps more pressure on the priest but if the WE isnt out it is less burst when the WE does pop since the rogue is now CCable.)
Anyway, I just found it funny how a paladin instead of a druid forces you to play a much longer game instead of a druid due to needing to keep pressure on the mage. Depending on how well I can chain cyclones and roots and how well the priest can kite the rogue, sometimes the warrior just sticks to the priest like glue. 5 sunders + fairie fire and a well timed bash or a cyclone so the warriors intercept/pummel are up soon causes most priests to drop quickly to a warrior.
If there is going to be so much attention on 2s and 3s, they really need to reflect on their balance decision prioritizing 5s. These tournaments are all interesting to watch and learn from, but so few setups really have a chance.
^^ Yah. The thing is too if you watch the tournaments, the teams micro manage the set ups. How can one of the 3 team mates counter someone on the other team? There are so many expamles. One team switched out a warrior to a warlock, I think to counter a mage. I also recall at least once or twice a warrior was brought in to counter a rogue on the opposing team. Between the last two 3v3 tournaments, there are several examples of this.
I have no clue how to balance though based on all this. A rogue on yoru team might counter a warlock on the other team who is on your mage, but a druid ont he other team might counter your rogue, and yoru mage can counter their druid with CS at a specific point etc., etc. Not to mention it's a bit more complicated with other abilities countering in other ways like mana drains, purge/dispells, types of heals, various snares and so on.
Edit: Bah, I am tired. I meant to add Blizz keeps focusing on 5s like you mentioned, but it really seems in a way small scale pvp is as much a part of PvP in wow as 5v5 is.
A big issue I have with the switches is that it gives alot of guesswork to "Will they change classes to gain an advantage, do they think that we will change assuming they will change to..." and it gets annoying. Perhaps if only the losing team can change their line-up it will remove that feeling, but in general I feel that every team eventually goes up against its counter comp, so being able to change a line up to avoid counter comps locking down a team isn't necessary.
After playing PMR a bit more, i'm beginning to get the hang of the matchup (if this is the wrong place to ask, say so, but its a PMR thread after all :P)
One thing i've been having particular difficulties with are dealing with druids, and dealing with polymorph dispels. Atm im focusing heavily on CC - the only time i'll ever burst is usually when im sure that it wont just get healed off (because i have personally CC'ed the opponent in question).
Is this just a case of that i need to coordinate my CC's better with the rogue? Sometimes i'll shout "blind this dude" if im really stuck or in trouble, and we have a blanket rule about saving a well timed Imp CS and blind for the druid when it's needed.
In the case of polymorph dispels, i understand thats probably the case that i should be CCing the healer so he cant dispel it? We sometimes come up against healer+warrior+something and i really feel stuck who i should be concentrating on.
Or maybe i should concentrate on both the healer AND the warrior? (i.e - i need to L2p :P)
Lastly in a sort of, general battle plan, we are kind of confused as when to draw out the fight to go for mana burns and run the healer OOM, and when we should be attempting for full length CC to kill off one of their DPS quickly. I find it's hardest to CC vs druid matchups, yet I know druids are the best at running around pillars and dragging out the match as long as they can. Whereas someone like a paladin is significantly easier to CC, i risk 2 of their CC's just ganking our priest and then a place where i feel we can mana burn the paladin to nothing actually turns into a quick burst fight.
I, like many have mentioned before, am also having trouble with 2 particular makeups against us (PMR).
1) Druid/Warlock/_____
Druids just seem to be a royal pain for us. What we decided to go with that worked reasonably ok is for our rogue to stay on the rogue, our priest to chase around the druid and try to mana burn him when possible, and myself (mage) to keep the 3rd person CC'd. That CC either being sheep or frost nova of course. Usually that last person is a warrior for them in our experience.
2) 2 healers/Warrior
This one we have had some trouble on as well. At first we went for the warrior thinking we could try to CC the 2 healers, however that didn't work since one of them nearly always got out of some form of CC to get a heal off. The strategy we found that worked was to have the rogue be on one of the healers, again our priest on the other healer, and myself on the warrior.
Overall it seemed to us to be a combination of deciding between burst and CC. The 2 healer team it was difficult to keep that warrior CC'd because of 2 dispells usually (priest/pally), although burst DPS was nearly impossible with them.
The first example was difficult due to mana constraints. If I laid on too much DPS too early I would end up OOM too early in the fight. The other issue is mana burns from a spriest or the warlock on our priest.
If it became a mana fight, well-coordinated drinking sessions were a key as well. At one point myself and the priest had to drink and our rogue got lit up.
Any other helpful suggestions are appreciated that haven't been posted already!
If you stuck around a bit after the final match ended, pandemic's rogue actually revealed what went down that let the res go off: their mage CS silenced the druid before he could moonfire apparently, allowing the res to go off.
It is still a rookie mistake, even in 5v5s. When it is 2v3 the druid should just have shadowed the priest and hit him with moonfire every time he drops combat. If the priest is serious about ressing that makes it a 2v1 as both the druid and priest can do about the same on the run.
Back on topic, we had good success against PMR with disc priest/rogue/druid. Rogue locks down the mage, druid locks down the rogue, priests mana burn each other to oblivion. That leaves rogue/druid + dispel against mage/rogue + dispel, which is an easy win for rogue/druid. We do have a hard time against warrior/warlock/druid though due to too much control on our rogue.
I would also think that warrior/druid/priest is stronger against PMR than warrior/pally/priest. The pally cannot offer much to the priest in terms of escaping the rogue since his poison cleanse is weak and BoF gets dispelled. A druid brings much more to the table in that particular matchup.
Playing against druid/lock/warrior is pretty easy setup if you execute it properly. As mage you should be on the warrior full time. Start with ice lance / rank 1 bolt / nova. After that you can poly 3 times (he probably will not trinket, if he does you got the chance to get a full blind on him. The rogue should play really aggressive on the warlock. Burn cooldowns as fast as you can and evasion if the warrior tries to harass you for a bit. As Mage its the most important thing that you cs a root/cyclone as soon as possible. (You usually miss the first one because of druid cycloning from stealth but the second should be yours. This forces the druid into healing afterwards and stop him from controlling. The priest can do various things, first he should dispell the warlock to nothing (should only take 2/3 dispells) and make sure he keeps the fel armor away. Use every fear offensive on the druid to force an early trinket. (silence cyclone into fear is a good way to force NS early in the game). Then he can either manaburn the druid if there is a chance, or manaburn the lock. If you got a cs on the druid or a fear burning the lock can be a good tactic. 5 stacks of wound poison, chain dispelling and being oom and needing to lifetap every 5/6 global cooldowns puts alot of pressure on him. When your CS/Fear is back on cooldown go for silence/fear/blind combo on the druid or just fear/silence and blinding the warrior.
Double healer warrior is hard of really hard depending on setup. Against Pally/Shaman we put the rogue on the shaman, mage on the warrior (dpsing) and the priest has to be spot on dispelling freedoms. Constant pressure on the shaman and warrior forces the paladin to heal which is easy locked out or feared. Alternative would be controlling the warrior (if he goes on priest), rogue on paladin and silence/fear shaman. Rotating strats to find whats working best for you. Against currently popular druid/mage/warrior we have the rogue on the priest, mage on warrior trying to control and cs-ing cyclones. Because there insane durability we try to force an early kill by doing 3x sheep on warrior (priest has a hard time dispelling because of rogue). CS cyclones and just burst the priest with everything we have. When the warrior is out he probably intercepts the rogue and just double evasion that period and go back to triple sheeps. Use offensive fears on the druid and try to get a kill. But we only have a 50% win against this combo either so still figuring out the better strat.
I, like many have mentioned before, am also having trouble with 2 particular makeups against us (PMR).
1) Druid/Warlock/_____
Druids just seem to be a royal pain for us. What we decided to go with that worked reasonably ok is for our rogue to stay on the rogue, our priest to chase around the druid and try to mana burn him when possible, and myself (mage) to keep the 3rd person CC'd. That CC either being sheep or frost nova of course. Usually that last person is a warrior for them in our experience.
2) 2 healers/Warrior
This one we have had some trouble on as well. At first we went for the warrior thinking we could try to CC the 2 healers, however that didn't work since one of them nearly always got out of some form of CC to get a heal off. The strategy we found that worked was to have the rogue be on one of the healers, again our priest on the other healer, and myself on the warrior.
As a general rule of thumb, Warriors simply can not counter your mage without the aid of his Warlock's Felhunter or teammates aggressiveness. If your Priest is countering their Druid while your Rogue is splitting damage on the Warlock and his pet, then you have elminated both threats to the Mage's ability to lock down whatever third they bring. This is obviously subject to a Reflect mid-game, but your line-up does not shine that far into the match. Your strength is in your powerful early-game. Druid/Warlock/X is an outlasting combo that requires time and well placed mana drains to swing the match into their favor.
I would suggest doing what you are already doing, except with your Rogue on their Warlock/Mage. Warlocks really can't do a whole lot as far as a casting bar is concerned inbetween hasted mace stuns and kicks. Your Priest needs to force the Druid into a lifebloom situation 'ala spam dispels. Basically, the only damage time X is going to have is if Blind is on a cooldown. They won't be able to keep up.
As far as 2healer/1warrior teams are concerned, I can't really speak from personal experience of playing either of the line-ups in question. What works for us, though, is harassing their Paladin (if they have one, otherwise their Shaman) to the point of having to bubble to heal while putting damage on their other healer. Take out whatever buff is helping him (keeping the priest too focused to dispel, knocking out windfuries, faking freedoms, etc) and lock him down. He doesn't really have a target that will give him a lot of rage, so the match will only get tight if it is drawn out.
I just started playing Druid/Priest/Warrior and even with 0 prior experience running a 2 healer team with any of the 3 people, we find beating PMR to be fairly easy. We beat every pmr we faced except a 1900 rated one (which was very close) and in general we started the night 18-3 overall, got a bit tired/sloppy went 22-6 our first and only night ending around 1750.
They have a few possible strats:
1) Control me and mana burn the priest. we counter by sticking on the priest and dispelling the cc. Cyclone/root the rogue. Kill elementals immediately (while cycloning the priest) We may also be able to mana burn their priest, and worst case can PS the priest and innervate at the same time with lots of buffs up for a very hard to dispell mana regen.
2) Control the priest, kill the druid. We counter by sticking on the rogue to give the druid a chance to get away. The rogue will eventually have to blow vanish as he will get low from having his back to me (no dodges). When our priest isnt controlled, he can help heal the druid or mana burn their priest.
3) Kill the warrior, control the priest. Druid keeps me up and eventually i have 100 rage, intercept the priest and start bursting pretty hard. The rogue will typically follow and eat sweeping strikes whirlwind/cleaves. Either the
In most matches, if our target drops to 50%, the druid starts cycloning/feral charging/bashing their healer and the priest tosses a SW and a mind blast and the target tends to die.
The teams we have trouble with tend to win the mana war with mana drains/stings/burns or successfully burst down the druid or priest. Honestly so far it has always felt like our own fault when we lose, the class combination is very strong.
Hm, maybe my Priest/Druid/Warrior team just needs more practise then. We went 4-6 tonight, with 9 of those games being PMRs, and it really seems to be if they're halfway competent we're going to lose :-\ I do my best to cyclone/root when I can, but the amount of burst damage/control they have is ridiculous.
Options 2) and 3) are how we lost every time, if they focus the priest it's not really that much of an issue. I don't have 4 piece, and stupid mace stun + rogue stuns leaves me trapped in bear forever, with my priest unable to help (CS, sheep, blind, etc). If they focus the warrior and CC the priest, we have no way to remove frost nova, which was sticking through a rogue wailing on him + shatter combos. Unless I already have a lot of HoTs up, I can't keep up with the damage
It might just come down to our warrior needing to play a bit better (and upgrading his internet connection from tin cans and string). Still, 29-16 for the season so far, and we might try some different nights this week to avoid the glut of PMR .
Originally Posted by #elitistjerks
(Blackpatch) interesting
(Blackpatch) the theoretical weekly profit of hypersynaptic fibers in ISK is only 0.004% off of the speed of light in meters per second
(@ZYla) dammit steam
(@ZYla) i already own all these gays
I run a PRM myself, not a very successful one, but we have our moments. I think that if you fuck up your CC chain as PRM, you will have a hard time getting back in the fight, but if you make full benefits of your sap, blind, fear and poly, you can win the fight in a matter of seconds.
I remember going up against a pala, warrior, priest yesterday, i got a sap in on all three (not full dur) before we engaged, the paladin was sapped in the end, and we sheeped the warrior, and we actually managed to burst the priest down before the paladin had a chance to dismount, bubble/trinket and do something about it. He might have been a lousy paladin, or maybe the sapping all the target confused him, but that doesnt change that if left alone, their priest was toast in 5-10 seconds.
My shaman's health was brought from 10k->0 in ~3 seconds at the hands of a PMR team the other day. PI'd shatter combo off the bat combined with what I assume must have been a muti rogue. It was awful.
@LL -- you really need the 4 piece bonus, it makes escaping melee infinitely easier.
We play Pally / Warrior / resto-shamn (2100 ish last season) and prety much got farmed by good RMP after all the buffs in 2.3.
However we have made a lot of adjustments and it's gotten much better recently.
Basically the good RMP teams have 2 sets of cooldowns and use them to perform 2 big bursts (AR + WE).
They will generally do their first burst imediatly, and the second burst shortly after.
The first thing we do is really focus on denying the roge his opener (duh!), then we plan out and use all of our cooldowns to survive the first burst, then we have our pally buble and spam through the second.
It's amazing how much popping the rogue early screws up this team. It means a lot more then just less early damage. If you pop the rogue your pally doesnt get sapped (can thus trinket blind), the poisions dont stack early, there is less early damage, and their focus target is not stuned and thus can avoid be spam purged early by the priest.
Either way our warrior starts on the rogue and as soon as he sees the AR animation he Disarms + Hamstring + Debuffs, then he intercepts the mage.
Once we get through the 2 heavy bursts and the other team is out of CD's (and getting low on mana usually) we switch to the Priest and go for the kill on him (this also denys mana burns which are punishing late game).
Hello, i currently run a pmr setup and we are doing fairly well in the start of the season. We hit 1850 quite easily going 14-0 after picking up a priest to replace a shaman. Right now we are currently 1921, trying to hit 2k for our shoulders. What seems to be happening is whenever we come across another PMR or a variation of it (pally, mage rogue), we run into alot of trouble, the reason being is that our priest just dies when rogue and mage is on him. Our strat is to go after their mage while trying to CC either rogue or their healer. My question is, if our priest is able to survive a rogue, im always on the mage so it is extremely hard for him to get a shatter combo off, however the priest still goes down and from that point on we lose, we mostly get the mage down to 20 30%, but priest isnt able to get that md off that easily since theres a rogue on him. How do you guys suggest countering this mirror match?
The first thing we do is really focus on denying the roge his opener (duh!)
How do you generally do this? I'm assuming your profile's accurate and you guys are horde, which means no perception, and you obviously don't have a felhunter for paranoia.
I'm curious because even with engineering goggles and a warlock partner I've had rogues get openers on me, although this may simply be a function of my Aussie ping.
I'd be interested in any tips on unstealthing rogues for teams lacking both stealth-detection and non-PBAoEs.
Hello everybode.
Currently, I run a Pal/Shammy/Warrior Setu with me being the Warrior and we didn't get get to play that many games yet, but what we did manage was to get fucked up by said PMR setups.
We just don't know how to handle these setups. Mostly, the fight goes something like this:
Their Rogue goes for our Shammy and keeps him stunned. As soon, as I try to do anything, I get novaed and sheeped. Thing is, my Pally is busy healing the Shammy, which doesn't give any room for dispells. And as I get novaed and cone of colded etc, leading to some winter's chill stacks, my Pally can't chain dispell me to get rid of the sheep. And when I get dispelled, I mostly get sheeped again. All while their Priest starts to mana burn my Shaman or my Paladin.
We can't put any pressure on anyone.
I was thinking about trying to stay out of los of their Mage while doing some dmg to their Rogue, slowing him with hamstring but I don't really know
Any advice maybe besides going Pally, Priest, Warrior or Priest, Druid, Warrior?
I'd really appreciate it.
Sounds like your shaman needs to play better, to be honest. These sorts of matchups are all about momentum.
If your shaman doesn't help interrupt the mage and ground stuff like poly, then the shaman has rogue+mage on him and the paladin is too busy healing to cleanse the warrior much, so the warrior can't control their DPS; meanwhile the priest isn't having to heal at all so he can mana burn the paladin who will eat some because he can't stop healing to LoS them or the shaman will die, and the mage can continue to control the warrior because he isn't being pressured either, and it spirals downward towards an ugly loss.
On the other hand, hamstring the rogue and get key interrupts on mage CC and now the mage is taking a beating, the rogue is burning cooldowns to try and contribute, and the priest is healing the mage instead of playing offensively with burns/fears.
Pal/Sham/War matches up well against PMR, but you need to keep the upper hand in terms of control. I don't necessarily advocate being super-aggressive. When the mage has an elemental up and the rogue has AR, etc., you probably don't want to be rushing at them. Play for control -- have the shaman focus on interrupting and grounding the mage's casts, you should keep hamstring/piercing on as many of them as possible to make it easy for your partners to LoS and/or kite them, kill the Elemental when you get a chance, and keep pressure on the mage. The shaman with poison cleansing and such should really be able to kite a rogue once his initial cooldowns are blown. The shaman shouldn't be "stunned all the time." Sometimes a mace stun will land right as you were hoping to shock a cast. That happens, and it sucks, but if the shaman is consistently looking to stop the mage from controlling the warrior, things should work out pretty well.
Sounds like your shaman needs to play better, to be honest. These sorts of matchups are all about momentum.
If your shaman doesn't help interrupt the mage and ground stuff like poly, then the shaman has rogue+mage on him and the paladin is too busy healing to cleanse the warrior much, so the warrior can't control their DPS; meanwhile the priest isn't having to heal at all so he can mana burn the paladin who will eat some because he can't stop healing to LoS them or the shaman will die, and the mage can continue to control the warrior because he isn't being pressured either, and it spirals downward towards an ugly loss.
On the other hand, hamstring the rogue and get key interrupts on mage CC and now the mage is taking a beating, the rogue is burning cooldowns to try and contribute, and the priest is healing the mage instead of playing offensively with burns/fears.
Pal/Sham/War matches up well against PMR, but you need to keep the upper hand in terms of control. I don't necessarily advocate being super-aggressive. When the mage has an elemental up and the rogue has AR, etc., you probably don't want to be rushing at them. Play for control -- have the shaman focus on interrupting and grounding the mage's casts, you should keep hamstring/piercing on as many of them as possible to make it easy for your partners to LoS and/or kite them, kill the Elemental when you get a chance, and keep pressure on the mage. The shaman with poison cleansing and such should really be able to kite a rogue once his initial cooldowns are blown. The shaman shouldn't be "stunned all the time." Sometimes a mace stun will land right as you were hoping to shock a cast. That happens, and it sucks, but if the shaman is consistently looking to stop the mage from controlling the warrior, things should work out pretty well.
which is why a PMR should kill the paladin first vs restosham/pally/warrior.
How do you think guys, what's spec will be the best for rogue (RMP setup), after 2.3.2 with HARP nerf?
Combat mace, muti, still HARP? Or may be ShS? o_O
Hello, i currently run a pmr setup and we are doing fairly well in the start of the season. We hit 1850 quite easily going 14-0 after picking up a priest to replace a shaman. Right now we are currently 1921, trying to hit 2k for our shoulders. What seems to be happening is whenever we come across another PMR or a variation of it (pally, mage rogue), we run into alot of trouble, the reason being is that our priest just dies when rogue and mage is on him. Our strat is to go after their mage while trying to CC either rogue or their healer. My question is, if our priest is able to survive a rogue, im always on the mage so it is extremely hard for him to get a shatter combo off, however the priest still goes down and from that point on we lose, we mostly get the mage down to 20 30%, but priest isnt able to get that md off that easily since theres a rogue on him. How do you guys suggest countering this mirror match?
I'm pretty noob at arena - but one thing that i have seen in videos which have really caught out PMR's in mirror matches, is that both the mage and the rogue nuke the other mage, and the priest gets ready for a mass dispel. As soon as iceblock hits mass dispel and burn him down.
Early on your priest may probably take a beating from the other rogue, which could prove problems for mass dispel, but if everyone uses instant CC's properly (fear, blind, nova) and just rush the opposing mage that seems to be a pretty good "shock" tactic.
12/09/07, 12:45 AM
and a mind blast and the target tends to die.
Similar Threads
