I don't think most are arguing that randomness is "unfair" (though generally, randomness benefits the weaker team in matches with skill/gear disparities, by giving them that slight chance to pull something out through luck, rather than simply being beaten down by a superior team).
I think more would argue that randomness can be "unfun". Clearly things average out over time, given a sufficiently large number of games. But that doesn't make it remotely enjoyable to feel like you didn't have a chance because the random number generator decided to spit out something that gave you little/no chance.
In many ways pre-TBC PvP, with the small size of HP pools relative to single-hit damage was the same way. If most DPS classes landed a few consecutive crits on you, you were hosed. Now, consecutive crits are not the norm, and crit rates average out over time, but dying because a hunter got lucky and crit on aimed-auto-multi was *NOT FUN*. I think the same thing could be extended to chain mace stuns, fear sticking through 10k damage(or running you halfway across the map). Different mechanics, but the same fundamental issue - players hate feeling like they didn't have a reasonable chance to fight back, simply because of some random event beyond their control. When analyzing a match after the fact, there's something irritating about coming to the conclusion that you lost because the RNG screwed you, as opposed to a concrete mistake.
Another mechanic that can be irritating in its randomness is dispel magic/purge and the various resist talents. http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/5...toicismkj5.jpg happened the other day (rogue/priest 2s) on a warrior under 10% hp and I went oom soon after so many failed dispels.
Priests and Druids have this talent, too. It's pure buff protection and if anyone, paladins deserve it most, since they bring little to no buffs and their class defining abilities are magic buffs. Having a talent to protect them is fair. The talent is also in the middle of protection tree. If someone invested 17 points in protection just to get this talent, they very well deserve the 30% fail chance.
If you have a situation where you've gotten someone very low and in a position to dispell the BoP when it comes up, that BoP should come off every time. The onus should be on the casting team to ensure it's safety, not a dice roll. In many games the result can come down to whether the BoP or DS was removed fast enough to matter. In those games you might as well let them be dispelled every time and then once the deserving team has won give the game a 30% chance to reverse the result instead. That would be just as fair.
Lots of classes have dispel resist talents now, whether it be for buffs or debuffs. I know I hate when I fail to cleanse viper sting or roots of someone. The real difference is that debuffing classes (hunters, spriests, warlocks, mages) have "trash" debuffs that apply automatically with no GCD usage or mana cost that will prevent defensive dispelling, whereas aside from PvP relics buffing classes really have nothing to protect buffs, and if they do it costs mana/GCD.
You may hate when you fail to dispel BoP multiple times, but try spam dispelling through 3-4 stacks of scorpid poison (that constantly reapplies itself independent of the hunter) before you even GET to viper sting, or when you end up eating shadow embrace before drain mana, or winter's chill before polymorph. You just spent mana to remove what is essentially a worthless spell, and there's still a chance the spell you want to remove will get resisted. Whether or not you get the real debuff or just worthless shit is a measure of luck too, and the worthless shit takes no effort to apply in most cases. Even meaningful debuffs (warlock dots mainly) are applied as a matter of course, whereas the only meaningful buffs are usually incredibly expensive and useless to cast once they're gone. I'd rather cleanse corruption/siphon off trying to get a drain mana or fear, though, than cleanse winter's chill/frost armor trying to get to a nova.
Give me a way to protect that BoP besides a trinket on a 2 minute cooldown (ribbon of sacrifice) that requires 5 GCD's and a minimum of 900 mana to apply, one that doesn't require any effort or work on my part, that can and will protect my buffs (unlike PvP libram, since dispel/purge remove two buffs), and you can take away dispel resist. As long as you take it away from every class in the game.
If you have a situation where you've gotten someone very low and in a position to dispell the BoP when it comes up, that BoP should come off every time. The onus should be on the casting team to ensure it's safety, not a dice roll. In many games the result can come down to whether the BoP or DS was removed fast enough to matter. In those games you might as well let them be dispelled every time and then once the deserving team has won give the game a 30% chance to reverse the result instead. That would be just as fair.
And once again, dispels are much too powerful if they can remove anything at lightning speed. It takes a shaman all of 5-6 seconds to rip every single buff off of a player and they can remove them faster than another player can put them up. In the grand scheme of things that is not all that much time, and it leaves the focus target wide open to a mass dispel. Also, if a single dispel resist means the difference between a win and a loss, then there is something severely wrong with your strategy and you likely did not deserve to win. The onus being on the other team to "protect" the bubble, iceblock, or what-have-you is a cop out on your side. The buffing classes are also the healing, dispelling, and utility classes. If they are spam healing someone how do you suggest having the "onus" on them to protect a buff that is supposed to save someone? The buffs they put up for protection will simply get ripped right back off in seconds by a shaman or priest. It sounds like you are simply angry that dispel got resisted. Well the onus is on you to keep casting dispels it until the buff is removed.
And once again, dispels are much too powerful if they can remove anything at lightning speed. It takes a shaman all of 5-6 seconds to rip every single buff off of a player and they can remove them faster than another player can put them up. In the grand scheme of things that is not all that much time, and it leaves the focus target wide open to a mass dispel. Also, if a single dispel resist means the difference between a win and a loss, then there is something severely wrong with your strategy and you likely did not deserve to win. The onus being on the other team to "protect" the bubble, iceblock, or what-have-you is a cop out on your side. The buffing classes are also the healing, dispelling, and utility classes. If they are spam healing someone how do you suggest having the "onus" on them to protect a buff that is supposed to save someone? The buffs they put up for protection will simply get ripped right back off in seconds by a shaman or priest. It sounds like you are simply angry that dispel got resisted. Well the onus is on you to keep casting dispels it until the buff is removed.
Protecting BoP or DS usually means LOSing the dispeller or CCing the dispeller. BoPing someone is half of saving them when a shaman or priest is around, the other half is making sure it's not dispelled before it's done its job. IF dispells are too powerful, nerf dispells or make certain things immune to dispells. Making it sometimes work, sometimes not is a massive copout. And it's hardly ever just one dispell, a BoP'd priest for instance has so many trash debuffs you can't guarantee you're even going to hit the BoP before it needs to go and "until the buff is removed" is not enough since often the BoP has well and truly done its job by the third dispell. DS is the same except with the lovely bonus of having to waste mass amounts of mana each dispell. And clearly these things don't happen every game (which is the point, btw) but if a paladin is going to let himself get too low or get into a bad position and need to DS to survive his mistake, he should lose if there's a priest there free to dispell the DS.
12/21/07, 4:38 PM
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