[Hunter] The PvP Thread - Page 11

ForestBoy · 03/11/08, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by Kierran

That's really too bad; I would love to have an alert that warns me when my pet's HP goes below a certain threshold (like SCT does for the player).

Hi. First post for me. Parrot is an ACE SCT type mod that does this for you. The default setting is to give a low pet health warning at 30%, but that's way too low. I cranked mine up to 70% cause you really need to know quick when your pet is being attacked. Parrot is super customizable and once you set it up you'll never go back to SCT.

I'm also a fan of spending 11 points in BM to get the improved outdoor movement speed. It makes it a lot harder for melee to kill your pet as you can wingclip them and the pet can get away.

Kaber · 03/11/08, 9:09 PM

Originally Posted by inphared

Awesome thanks so much for your help. Gonna try a BM Hunter+SL/SL Lock+Holy/Disc Priest setup and see how it goes.

Then you're probably going to want to spec Marksman and use a Scorpid for mana draining. BM is really lackluster for anything beyond a burst team.

Originally Posted by Seti

Great thread! I was wondering about suggestions for Hunter specific PvP/Arena UI addon's and layouts. My main is a resto Shammy, but I am working with my hunter to be my PvP fun toon. Anyways, any suggestions would be great. Thanks

There is a UI thread on this same page, use the search function. Hunters have no special needs aside from an Auto Shot bar which comes with Zhunter or some similar mod.

Kaber · 03/11/08, 9:11 PM

edit: delete, double post.

Kierran · 03/11/08, 9:50 PM

Originally Posted by ForestBoy

Hi. First post for me. Parrot is an ACE SCT type mod that does this for you. The default setting is to give a low pet health warning at 30%, but that's way too low. I cranked mine up to 70% cause you really need to know quick when your pet is being attacked. Parrot is super customizable and once you set it up you'll never go back to SCT.

I'm also a fan of spending 11 points in BM to get the improved outdoor movement speed. It makes it a lot harder for melee to kill your pet as you can wingclip them and the pet can get away.

Thanks for the tip on Parrot, I'll go check that out. And yes, I have Bestial Swiftness, though more for chasing druids than fleeing from melee.

As an update to my prior post on struggling with hunter/druid in the 1700 bracket, we had another lackluster string of matches last week and decided to give the dreamstate build a try. The difference was startling, with us picking up over 100 points by the end of the week. Nuking pets is trivial, making warlock/X and mirror matches much easier to handle. The extra DPS puts more pressure on healers allowing more viper sting opportunities, and we can actually burst someone down if their healer is out of LoS or away drinking. Supposedly the dreamstate build is more vulnerable to double DPS teams, but we haven't had any additional problems so far.

Rather than just being happy with these results, I find myself questioning why the extra burst damage is helping so much. It basically indicates to me that I wasn't putting out enough DPS pressure back when the druid was resto. This makes sense, as I struggled to bring down pets before and we had a hard time closing the deal against teams even when their healer was OOM. It shouldn't be a gear issue as I'm in almost full S2/S3 (unless my [Barrel-Blade Longrifle] is too fast for PvP?). More coordination of roots/traps with my partner would probably help, and I've taken to literally just DPSing everything in sight rather than doggedly pursuing one target. Any other tips on boosting my DPS output?

IRR3V3RSIBLE · 03/16/08, 5:20 PM

I've found a love for a 5/21/35 spec for +15% health, Scatter Shot, and Wyvern Sting. My question is, with all this CC, is it worth the potential dps loss? IS there a dps loss?

Sillyman · 03/17/08, 2:37 PM

Originally Posted by IRR3V3RSIBLE

I've found a love for a 5/21/35 spec for +15% health, Scatter Shot, and Wyvern Sting. My question is, with all this CC, is it worth the potential dps loss? IS there a dps loss?

Yah, you are loosing a lot of DPS with that. But, you gain a ton of survivability and utility. If that is your play style go with it. Especially in 2v2 and sometimes 3v3 they are all about out lasting your opponent anyway.

Kierran · 03/17/08, 3:40 PM

Compared to the 11/41/9 spec, you're not actually losing much damage with your build.

Assume 1600 base AP with AotH, 300 Int, 600 Agi, and 800 DPS, with 5 AP->1DPS as well.

11/41/9 offers:
+125 AP from TSA (-> 1725 AP)
+15% of Int as AP (-> 1770 AP)
+10% AP from Master Marksman (-> 1947 AP)
+2% total damage from focus fire and +2% total damage from Humanoid Slaying works out to 32 more DPS, plus the bonus from multishot talents (see below).

5/21/35 offers:
+15% Agi (-> 1690 AP, +2.25% crit) +3% crit from Killer Instinct.
+3% hit from Surefooted converted to AP is about 90 AP more in your item budget that you don't need for hit (-> 1780 AP)
+4% AP from Survival Instincts (-> 1851AP)
5.25% crit is 115 crit rating. Each CR is worth about 1.5 AP, so that's +173 AP for a total of 2024 AP.
+3% total damage from Humanoid Slaying. (+24 DPS)

So the 5/21/35 spec comes up ~80 AP (~16 DPS) ahead with an innate 8 DPS deficit compared to the tri-spec for a total gain of about 8 DPS (1%) minus whatever the Multi-Shot talents add (probably another percentage point or two). Your mileage may vary of course depending on your actual stats, but the point is the DPS loss is minor.

I think the more relevant matter is the abstract differences. You lose the burst potential of Multi-Shot, a lot of strength versus casters from Silencing Shot, weaker stings making it harder to drain, a fast pet revive, and a speedy pet. In return you get a number of minor boosts to survivability and a Wyvern Sting every two minutes. That's really not a good trade, at least for the standard 2v2 Hunter/Healer outlast setup. You'd need a different strategy. With Wyvern Sting, you're looking to contribute to a long CC train (probably on a healer) while you burn down the other player. You could make this work with a Mage, Rogue, or Warlock maybe. You'd likely get rocked by any double-DPS team though since they'll focus on you and nullify your DPS.

The problem is, Wyvern Sting is on a 2-minute cooldown, so you get one shot with whatever CC chain you try to pull off and then you're on the defensive until it's back up. It's an all-or-nothing approach, which means it's fragile. Can't hurt to try, but make sure you rigidly coordinate CCs with your partner.

Evil-Homer! · 03/17/08, 8:55 PM

Does anyone know a macro that will pull my pet back, feign death, and then drink during arena's?

Kierran · 03/17/08, 9:10 PM

/stopcasting
/target pettarget
/petstay <or /petfollow>
/cast Feign Death
/use Star's Tears

Pretty straightforward. Hit pet attack immediately after to send pet back in. You can add /cast !Shadowmeld after the Feign Death for you NEs out there.

Vasilii · 03/18/08, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by Kierran

Compared to the 11/41/9 spec, you're not actually losing much damage with your build.

Assume 1600 base AP with AotH, 300 Int, 600 Agi, and 800 DPS, with 5 AP->1DPS as well.

11/41/9 offers:
+125 AP from TSA (-> 1725 AP)
+15% of Int as AP (-> 1770 AP)
+10% AP from Master Marksman (-> 1947 AP)
+2% total damage from focus fire and +2% total damage from Humanoid Slaying works out to 32 more DPS, plus the bonus from multishot talents (see below).

5/21/35 offers:
+15% Agi (-> 1690 AP, +2.25% crit) +3% crit from Killer Instinct.
+3% hit from Surefooted converted to AP is about 90 AP more in your item budget that you don't need for hit (-> 1780 AP)
+4% AP from Survival Instincts (-> 1851AP)
5.25% crit is 115 crit rating. Each CR is worth about 1.5 AP, so that's +173 AP for a total of 2024 AP.
+3% total damage from Humanoid Slaying. (+24 DPS)

So the 5/21/35 spec comes up ~80 AP (~16 DPS) ahead with an innate 8 DPS deficit compared to the tri-spec for a total gain of about 8 DPS (1%) minus whatever the Multi-Shot talents add (probably another percentage point or two). Your mileage may vary of course depending on your actual stats, but the point is the DPS loss is minor.

I think the more relevant matter is the abstract differences. You lose the burst potential of Multi-Shot, a lot of strength versus casters from Silencing Shot, weaker stings making it harder to drain, a fast pet revive, and a speedy pet. In return you get a number of minor boosts to survivability and a Wyvern Sting every two minutes. That's really not a good trade, at least for the standard 2v2 Hunter/Healer outlast setup. You'd need a different strategy. With Wyvern Sting, you're looking to contribute to a long CC train (probably on a healer) while you burn down the other player. You could make this work with a Mage, Rogue, or Warlock maybe. You'd likely get rocked by any double-DPS team though since they'll focus on you and nullify your DPS.

The problem is, Wyvern Sting is on a 2-minute cooldown, so you get one shot with whatever CC chain you try to pull off and then you're on the defensive until it's back up. It's an all-or-nothing approach, which means it's fragile. Can't hurt to try, but make sure you rigidly coordinate CCs with your partner.

Good analysis, I assume you were using Cheeky's, did you make the target have 400 resilience?

You could shift 5 points from BM into MM for the improved stings, but this is still not optimal (no reason to really have the 5 points in BM). Lack of beastial swiftness basically means you have either have to use a pet with dash or a druid will be able to get away extremely easily without and if you're using a dash pet you're not covering your viper sting with poisons. Also if your pet dies, its GG because the amount of mana and 10 second cast time for a pet rez will be too hard to pull off against good teams. WS is nice for double dps teams but 2 racial abilities can cleanse it and the long CD makes it pretty meh in general. It also seems to break early.

Kierran · 03/19/08, 4:11 PM

I used Cheeky's indirectly to pull the base stats out, although I didn't do a direct comparison between the two talent builds within the spreadsheet. And yes, the target was modified for resilience (300 or so).

If I were to use WS, I'd run a 0/27/34 build and team with a Mage or Warlock. With long, frequent Freeze Traps, Wyvern Sting, and Poly/Fear, you could hopefully keep one opponent locked down enough to burn the other.

Fleabite · 03/21/08, 3:27 PM

Evening guys.

I had my first taste of proper PvP arena last week with a guildie (who is quite heavily immersed in arena) and i really enjoyed it, mediocre gear on my behalf but the matches tended to go quite smoothly, and we called it a night at 1607 rating. This weekend I feel slightly more prepared, and I would like us to hit 1700.

Partner is a Holy paladin and vastly outgears me (4/5 S3, s3 wep etc). As opposed to my 3piece s1, &vengeful chest.

A couple of adjustments i've made through readings the forums
1) - I'm not turning with keyboard anymore (probably shouldn't admit that..)
2) - Got focus frames, and sorted out target focus macro's for viper stings, silence shot, scatter shot etc
3) - couple of addons to give me more information - Proximo, afflicted, antagonist

2 Main queries, whats the general consensus with regards to spec for 2v2? Last weekend i ran 11/45/5 (Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft However I felt that the imp concussive shot gave poor value, and that improved clips / entrapment might be much more viable. I like the improved health/speed for my pet, and felt it gave an advantage in keeping people from drinking, and a few more seconds of survivability when the warriors inevitably started pounding on it.

The build i used incorporated Careful aim - I don't know whether to sacrifice the points here this weekend, as it gives me 104ap, and although drain is the name of the game, i don't want to end up completely devoid of dps to finish people off - Thoughts?

Finally our major stumbling block last week, and the only set up we lost too more than twice was a Warrior Shaman combo) - With manatotems, water shields etc, despite draining every cooldown i found it too hard to keep him oom without leaving myself devoid of mana, it was a war of attrition they sadly won :/ How do you guys deal with this set up?

Thoughts, imput, critiscisms thorougly welcome and appreciated,
Cheers.

*edit
One more thing(!) Is it worth teaching the Scorpid any other focus using ability other than Scorpid poison, I'm worried that its focus will be drained and that I won't get a reapplication of poison, which seems far more important than it having claw

EzMac · 03/21/08, 9:41 PM

Originally Posted by Fleabite

2 Main queries, whats the general consensus with regards to spec for 2v2? Last weekend i ran 11/45/5 (Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft However I felt that the imp concussive shot gave poor value, and that improved clips / entrapment might be much more viable. I like the improved health/speed for my pet, and felt it gave an advantage in keeping people from drinking, and a few more seconds of survivability when the warriors inevitably started pounding on it.

The build i used incorporated Careful aim - I don't know whether to sacrifice the points here this weekend, as it gives me 104ap, and although drain is the name of the game, i don't want to end up completely devoid of dps to finish people off - Thoughts?

Finally our major stumbling block last week, and the only set up we lost too more than twice was a Warrior Shaman combo) - With manatotems, water shields etc, despite draining every cooldown i found it too hard to keep him oom without leaving myself devoid of mana, it was a war of attrition they sadly won :/ How do you guys deal with this set up?

A generally accepted "best spec" for 2v2/3v3 is 11/41/9 (Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft). Careful aim is nice for extra dps, but, as a drain class, you're not looking for great burst damage. Most do not focus on Careful Aim because of the many other more useful talents (imp Wing Clip, Entangle, Bestial Swiftness).

Shaman/Warrior is a tough setup for most hunter/druid or hunter/disc priest teams. In my experience (not much, I admit), I have found that a good strategy is to CC the shaman and burst down the warrior. I believe Megatf has posted a video for this strategy recently, but I'm not sure where to find it.

Anyway, hope I helped.

Fleabite · 03/22/08, 7:07 PM

Thanks for that.

I've just had a another quick run in the arena (will do more later)

First match we hit...Warrior Shaman.... couldn't believe it :P Anyway, overall we came close again however making the shaman completely oom seems very tough. The main thing that happened was...

Warrior starts pounding on us (seemed to be splitting dps but i wasn't massively pressured) my pet is on the shaman permanently ... and he's hiding behind the pillars (nagrand arena). I manage to get my drains off .. however getting that last bit was seemingly impossible (mana spring totems)

What i'm wondering is, as my pet spends most of his time hugging the shaman...is it possible to make a macro that will quickly take the pet off the shaman, kill the mana spring totem, then go back to him?

If i'm fast enough and get the totem in the first 3-4 seconds, the shaman has just suffered a nasty return (90 mana totem for 25-50 mana return) this happens more than once and I think it will shake him up.

How do i make this happen?
I'm thinking along the lines of

/target Mana Spring
/petattack
/target focus
/petattack

I'm crap with macro's, really i am, but would something along the lines of this work? could anyone help me refine it?

Norgl · 03/22/08, 7:22 PM

It'll be Water Shield abuse that stops the Shaman going completely out of mana, not the Mana Spring (although it all adds up). An intelligent Shaman will simply keep recasting Water Shield if you keep your pet on him, it's not as effective as getting out of combat to drink but the regen is decent.

Versus a Shaman/Warrior combo, I wouldn't focus on completely draining the Shaman to zero mana, but rather getting him low then putting an Aimed Shot and some damage into the Warrior. It will force the Shaman to come into line of sight where you can then re-apply Viper Sting and immediately switch back to the Warrior.

Kierran · 03/22/08, 7:35 PM

You'll never fully drain a resto shaman; Water Shield, Mana Tide, and Poison Cleansing will see to that. Like Norgel said, your best bet is to drain him as far as you can, then pull your pet off and pressure the warrior. When you're ready to go for the kill, CC the shaman with trap/cyclone, Aimed Shot the warrior, and burn him down. Remember that the most effective way to drain a healer is to DPS the teammate, forcing the healer to use mana healing and also exposing him to Viper Stings.

As for the totems, there are various macros out there to have your pet attack totems. Something like

/petattack [target=Windfury Totem]
/petattack [target=Poison Cleansing Totem]
etc.

is probably your best bet, though you'll have to put the pet back on the Shaman afterward.

Fleabite · 03/22/08, 7:56 PM

Much appreciated chaps, thanks alot.

Whitemane · 03/23/08, 2:42 PM

What do hunters do when people try to kill your pet? Say warriors or rogues, with a druid partner. Is it healable in the long run?

Loshiis · 03/23/08, 5:52 PM

Originally Posted by Whitemane

What do hunters do when people try to kill your pet? Say warriors or rogues, with a druid partner. Is it healable in the long run?

If a Warrior/Rogue wants to kill your pet, it's going to die, unless one of two things happen: You dismiss it, or you are able to put out enough DPS while the pet is focused to force the other team onto the defensive. If you can't, then when you see your pet about to go down, it's probably a good idea to get into a position where you can cast the four second resurrect before the other team can stop you.

Edit: This is with a Shaman healing it; with a Druid healing it, results may vary.

Whitemane · 03/23/08, 8:22 PM

Originally Posted by Loshiis

If a Warrior/Rogue wants to kill your pet, it's going to die, unless one of two things happen: You dismiss it, or you are able to put out enough DPS while the pet is focused to force the other team onto the defensive. If you can't, then when you see your pet about to go down, it's probably a good idea to get into a position where you can cast the four second resurrect before the other team can stop you.

Edit: This is with a Shaman healing it; with a Druid healing it, results may vary.

But you can't revive your pet until it's dead and I guess that's a big problem, since when the pet dies they're immediately out of combat and drinking. Just seems that eventually your pet will die and your opponent will drink, then it's game over.

Taidaisher · 03/23/08, 8:45 PM

Originally Posted by Whitemane

But you can't revive your pet until it's dead and I guess that's a big problem, since when the pet dies they're immediately out of combat and drinking. Just seems that eventually your pet will die and your opponent will drink, then it's game over.

I don't think the pet is healable in the long run. I use my scorpid (with rank 4 poison) to deter/interrupt the healer/caster until they are out of mana (hopefully). If that works then it's game over for them. If the other team is melting my pet, I cast a mend pet, pull it back to me, send it back in, etc. while my partner and I are focus firing on the heavy hitter of the other team. Basically, I try to yo-yo my pet, so they have to work to hit it.

BTW, sorry for the newbness here, but could someone explain what you mean by focus? I was understanding it as what you are targetting on or focussing on, but apparently I am wrong.

Whitemane · 03/23/08, 9:31 PM

Originally Posted by Taidaisher

I don't think the pet is healable in the long run. I use my scorpid (with rank 4 poison) to deter/interrupt the healer/caster until they are out of mana (hopefully). If that works then it's game over for them. If the other team is melting my pet, I cast a mend pet, pull it back to me, send it back in, etc. while my partner and I are focus firing on the heavy hitter of the other team. Basically, I try to yo-yo my pet, so they have to work to hit it.

BTW, sorry for the newbness here, but could someone explain what you mean by focus? I was understanding it as what you are targetting on or focussing on, but apparently I am wrong.

Focus: Primarily killing something or doing extraordinary things to take it down.

Loshiis · 03/23/08, 10:11 PM

Originally Posted by Whitemane

But you can't revive your pet until it's dead and I guess that's a big problem, since when the pet dies they're immediately out of combat and drinking. Just seems that eventually your pet will die and your opponent will drink, then it's game over.

The match is not over if your opponents drink a few ticks of mana, and your healer should be there attempting to keep them in combat as well. If the other team drinks, so be it; your healer can drink as well if he/she is not keeping the other team in combat. Either way, the fight is not over as your pet is back up and neither you nor your healer has died.

Edit: The nice thing about Hunter/Healer teams is that the fight is never over until someone dies. One mistake does not seal the game, so don't get disheartened, just keep going.

Kierran · 03/24/08, 12:19 PM

It's hard for your healer to keep you up while a Warrior/Rogue beats on you, let alone your zero-resilience 7k HP pet. The solution is not to just heal through the damage but to also CC the opposing DPS and give your pet time to get away and mend up.

You've got to be on the ball when you see them focus your pet; the previously-mentioned Parrot add-on can provide an early warning. Make sure you're teammate is aware of the target switch as well. Toss a Mend Pet to help with the healing and pull your pet back if its HP gets low. Your biggest advantage during a determined pet focus is that your opponents' attention is not on you. Maximize your DPS and CC during this period, and take advantage of every drain opportunity if they have a healer.

Whitemane · 03/24/08, 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by Kierran

/stopcasting
/target pettarget
/petstay <or /petfollow>
/cast Feign Death
/use Star's Tears

Pretty straightforward. Hit pet attack immediately after to send pet back in. You can add /cast !Shadowmeld after the Feign Death for you NEs out there.

By the way, is this guaranteed to work? Tried other macros much similar to this, but they sometimes seem to fail. What's the reason to that? Nothing more annoying than fd'ing in arena and not being able to drink afterwards :/ Also it gimps your mana regen by a LOT in arenas.