[Hunter] The PvP Thread - Page 16

Ingmar · 10/27/08, 6:49 AM

Originally Posted by Mearis

How do people feel about the scaling that viper sting received? Are people worried that hunters basically end up as one-trick ponies again in the expansion? Right now with how good viper sting is, all non-druids are on a huge clock against hunters before they end up OOM.

I don't understand why they don't fix the other things wrong with hunters instead of making them rely on an incredibly powerful ability that leads to very boring gameplay.

What exactly do you mean with viper scaling? Going from 1368 on 70 to 3092 mana at 80? To me, that is not scaling, that's just keeping up with gear/mana pool progression. From what I've heard ~10-11k mana pools now are going up to 20k+ in LK, so it's really only a fair upgrade.

Anyway, as far as I can see the only class in trouble with hunters is priests really, every other healing class can dispell the sting and double DPS shouldn't rely on a full mana bar to win anyway (and the clock is very good in that sense, "do or die" vs a healer/dps outlasting).

Besides that, the drain game pre 3.0 was already pretty hard except for draining pallies (but do try killing something while being OOM as a hunter) and currently is completely useless in 3.02.

Mearis · 10/27/08, 6:55 AM

Chimera shot refreshes it, so you can have it ticking constantly. Manaburn by comparison scales much much worst than viper sting from 70 to 80.

I just think vipersting is a stupid ability in general, but I am of course very biased by the class I play. Abilities that function as hard counters to certain classes in general are dumb.

Ingmar · 10/27/08, 7:15 AM

Originally Posted by Mearis

Chimera shot refreshes it, so you can have it ticking constantly. Manaburn by comparison scales much much worst than viper sting from 70 to 80.

I just think vipersting is a stupid ability in general, but I am of course very biased by the class I play. Abilities that function as hard counters to certain classes in general are dumb.

Right, its 1029-1079 now to 1478-1562 in LK so perhaps mana burn should get a bump up in that sense. Basically you're arguing for a priest buff rather than discussing Hunter PvP at the moment

Remember that mana burn truly scales with a stat, being Haste, which is likely to become more widely spread on PvP gear in LK. Hunters will get a base drain which will never change, regardless of gear.

Why is Viper Sting a stupid ability? Surely it's annoying for other mana based classes (it even is for hunter vs hunter) but I believe that without it hunters would have been utterly underpowered in any arena setting. Removing it would require serious rebalancing.

Mearis · 10/27/08, 7:17 AM

Originally Posted by Ingmar

Why is Viper Sting a stupid ability? Surely it's annoying for other mana based classes (it even is for hunter vs hunter) but I believe that without it hunters would have been utterly underpowered in any arena setting. Removing it would require serious rebalancing.

I completely agree with this. I also think you need to look at the reverse - for serious rebalancing you'd need to nerf it more make it less powerful.

If hunters are not seriously buffed, viper sting shouldn't be touched - but I think that going from being a DPS class to the last drain class in PvP is quite a serious change.

Ingmar · 10/27/08, 8:31 AM

Originally Posted by Mearis

I completely agree with this. I also think you need to look at the reverse - for serious rebalancing you'd need to nerf it more make it less powerful.

If hunters are not seriously buffed, viper sting shouldn't be touched - but I think that going from being a DPS class to the last drain class in PvP is quite a serious change.

Well, it's not really a change. Pre 3.0 hunters never really were a DPS class, they were a drain/cc class with some (quite avoidable) DPS with an "in-combat keeper" against enemy healers. I can only hope that hunters can play the drain game again, because they lost kiting and DPS game a long time ago.

I'm getting the idea that you don't dislike Viper sting, but drain games in general. Quite frankly I don't mind playing the drain game, but the pillar/hump drinking usually ruins your day, 20+ min games are quite common because of this, not because of the hunter's drain

Making the PvP drinks Unique(10) or 20, or whatever limited number, would already improve the situation. If you take away the drains/burns along with this, mortal strike effects will then be mandatory for any setup along with all implications that would bring.

Griffen · 10/29/08, 6:36 PM

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

I do want to mention that it is currently possible to exploit the fact that Aspects have no GCD -- it is possible to benefit from Viper and another Aspect by rapidly swapping back and forth (which doesn't make servers happy either by the way). Our concern of course is that all hunters feel like this power Aspect twisting becomes the right way to play.

If we can't find another way around this, we might have to put Aspects back on the GCD or make the shared cooldown a lot longer than 1 sec. Other solutions (like Viper doesn't kick in for 10 sec or whatever) also seem, well, bleh.

We're hoping this isn't as big a problem now that you don't need to swap to Monkey immediately once you have Dragonhawk. But I did want you all to be aware of the problem.

MMO-Champion BlueTracker - How are people liking Dragonhawk?

I can see the aspect swapping problem. I think increasing the internal-CD of the aspects is a possibility. The only problem I can see if you accidentally switch to AotCheetah when you wanted AotDragonhawk or something

A CD of 2-3 seconds should make it impossible to benefit from AotViper on a shot fired when you were in AotDragonhawk.

Xavias · 10/30/08, 1:30 AM

*Oops, they removed Priest's alpha dispel poison.

And yes, Hunters would be in a terrible place PvP-wise if Viper were to suddenly disappear.

Cythera · 10/30/08, 2:49 AM

Every healing class can dispel poison?

Griffen · 10/30/08, 8:31 AM

Originally Posted by Cythera

Every healing class can dispel poison?

Nope. Unless you're a dwarven priest that is.

Edit: Or am I missing something?

Anyhow, it would not change much from before, it just means we have to mask it on priests as well, as we've done with druids/paladins/shamans.

Mearis · 10/30/08, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by Xavias

Viper Sting should be less of an issue now that every Healing class can dispel Poison.

And yes, Hunters would be in a terrible place PvP-wise if Viper were to suddenly disappear.

Priests? Priests are on a 1 minute countdown if fighting a hunter, after 1 minute, you have lost. That means that priest teams are only viable if hunter teams are not, which is a shitty situation balance wise.

Elendril · 10/30/08, 3:15 PM

Originally Posted by Mearis

Priests? Priests are on a 1 minute countdown if fighting a hunter, after 1 minute, you have lost. That means that priest teams are only viable if hunter teams are not, which is a shitty situation balance wise.

That's really a poor argument, since priests can be paired with other teammates who can dispel as well, or can play sufficiently aggressively to beat hunter teams before they can be drained out. Viper is obviously at its best against priests, but saying that teams with priests can't ever win against teams with hunters is false.

Sartuk · 10/30/08, 3:16 PM

Originally Posted by Mearis

Priests? Priests are on a 1 minute countdown if fighting a hunter, after 1 minute, you have lost. That means that priest teams are only viable if hunter teams are not, which is a shitty situation balance wise.

And I think both hunters and priests agree that that really needs to change. Viper should be a useful tool but not an "I Win" button against one class. And a class should not be 100% arena balanced on their 1 button counter to 1 specific class. Something really needs to change here.

Aranik · 10/30/08, 3:43 PM

Not to delve deeply into the concept of "balance" or anything, but these statements are oversimplications of the arena game, in any bracket. Things may or may not work well against particular classes, which in isolation, makes it seem like the dominant class is "unbalanced", but ignores all the other facts

Even if you were to take into account all the hunter/priest interactions (pets bounce pom, hunter has a limited offensive dispel, priest has a lot of instant spells so can pillar hug and run easily, hunter has pet to keep priest in combat, etc) it still ignores that both players have a partner that make the whole thing even more complicated.

From personal experience on my own priest and hunter, in and against double dps and healer/dps teams, I can say I hate being stung on the former and love stinging priests on the latter, but from neither side is it an auto-win or auto-loss - and I'll be weary of the opposing classes' particular strengths as well as that specific weakness.

WoW PvP is very rarely just about "x person has x ability which hard counters me", because you have four people (at the very least) fighting across each other with a myriad of different abilities.

Mearis · 10/30/08, 7:46 PM

Originally Posted by Elendril

That's really a poor argument, since priests can be paired with other teammates who can dispel as well, or can play sufficiently aggressively to beat hunter teams before they can be drained out. Viper is obviously at its best against priests, but saying that teams with priests can't ever win against teams with hunters is false.

As I said, you have 1 minute to win, so you have to play extremly aggressively. The other option is paring up with a dispeller, which means playing double healer/dps in 3s with a druid.

And I think both hunters and priests agree that that really needs to change. Viper should be a useful tool but not an "I Win" button against one class. And a class should not be 100% arena balanced on their 1 button counter to 1 specific class. Something really needs to change here.

I completely agree, however, right now, hunters NEED viper sting. Hunters would have to receive some very serious compensation before any viper sting nerfs could even be on the table.

Not to delve deeply into the concept of "balance" or anything, but these statements are oversimplications of the arena game, in any bracket. Things may or may not work well against particular classes, which in isolation, makes it seem like the dominant class is "unbalanced", but ignores all the other facts

Even if you were to take into account all the hunter/priest interactions (pets bounce pom, hunter has a limited offensive dispel, priest has a lot of instant spells so can pillar hug and run easily, hunter has pet to keep priest in combat, etc) it still ignores that both players have a partner that make the whole thing even more complicated.

From personal experience on my own priest and hunter, in and against double dps and healer/dps teams, I can say I hate being stung on the former and love stinging priests on the latter, but from neither side is it an auto-win or auto-loss - and I'll be weary of the opposing classes' particular strengths as well as that specific weakness.

WoW PvP is very rarely just about "x person has x ability which hard counters me", because you have four people (at the very least) fighting across each other with a myriad of different abilities.

There are no strictly speaking hard counters. I could imagine a warrior beating a frost mage in a duel, if he outskilled him immensely and got very very lucky - but assuming similar skills, a frost mage will always destroy a warrior, and a hunter will always destroy a priest.

Aranik · 10/30/08, 11:57 PM

I don't need to dispute who wins 1v1s. I'm fairly sure it's been stated, by Blizzard, that the game is not balanced around duels, and this is my whole point; it's never as simple as just one player reacting to another. It's a team game, at least in arenas, where pvp skill is measured.

Calantus · 10/31/08, 4:37 AM

Originally Posted by Aranik

I don't need to dispute who wins 1v1s. I'm fairly sure it's been stated, by Blizzard, that the game is not balanced around duels, and this is my whole point; it's never as simple as just one player reacting to another. It's a team game, at least in arenas, where pvp skill is measured.

Who wins in 1v1 is very relevant in 2s and 3s when the matchup is so imbalanced. Hunter v Priest has got to be one of the hardest counters in the game and I don't see how you can dispute that. You can say it's fine that hunters counter priests so hard, but denying it happens is just silly.

Aranik · 10/31/08, 9:00 PM

The theoretical 1v1 contains some info as to what "counters" what, but my point is it doesn't end there. I'm disputing calling for a change to the skill based on studying it in isolation.

It's just not logical to move from "this ability has no direct answer" to "it needs an answer", or to "remove the ability". I'm not denying viper sting is particularly potent against priests. I'm just saying it's not as simple as understanding it out of context of the wider arena game, be it smaller or large brackets.

Griffen · 11/01/08, 4:10 PM

I just did 2 hours of BG's (mostly AB) with a BM pvp specc (something like this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft) not really meant seriously.

I got Glyph of AotMonkey ( [Glyph of Mending] ) and stayed mostly in AotMonkey (I could've changed more often to AotHawk with benefit).

To me the glyph looks like it's going to be really nice with the AotDragonhawk changes. I liked that specc quite a bit, compared to the MM specc I tried earlier, but it was hard to counter mages with it.

Anyhow, this is not meant as a real test, although I played seriously BG's is not a good test of abilities and I've been gone from the game for quite a period now only playing randomly. Just thought I'd say it looks like a good start.

Furo · 11/01/08, 11:55 PM

Originally Posted by Ingmar

Well, it's not really a change. Pre 3.0 hunters never really were a DPS class, they were a drain/cc class with some (quite avoidable) DPS with an "in-combat keeper" against enemy healers. I can only hope that hunters can play the drain game again, because they lost kiting and DPS game a long time ago.

I'm getting the idea that you don't dislike Viper sting, but drain games in general. Quite frankly I don't mind playing the drain game, but the pillar/hump drinking usually ruins your day, 20+ min games are quite common because of this, not because of the hunter's drain

Making the PvP drinks Unique(10) or 20, or whatever limited number, would already improve the situation. If you take away the drains/burns along with this, mortal strike effects will then be mandatory for any setup along with all implications that would bring.

Your post pretty much sums it up. I don't have the exact quote but at the very beginning of the beta Koraa said something along the lines of:

Hunters should be dangerous because of their CC and DPS combos and not just because they live long enough for their Viper Sting to take effect.

That quote makes it pretty clear that the developers were aware hunter DPS was not up to par and that they were over reliant on Viper Sting.

What's changed? Well, our DPS is still sub par and Viper Sting is still an issue.(Inside the arena of course)

I don't know what point, if any, I'm heading towards but basically, why do they continue to nerf our shot damage if we don't do enough damage?

Gonkish · 11/02/08, 6:17 AM

Originally Posted by Furo

I don't know what point, if any, I'm heading towards but basically, why do they continue to nerf our shot damage if we don't do enough damage?

Because we do a LOT in PvE. A lot of that is based off of Auto-Shot, and various other things, and they're trying to balance us out so that we pull roughly even with the other pure DPS classes; all while trying to ensure that we're not complete DPS gimps in PvP.

That can't be easy.

Griffen · 11/02/08, 8:17 AM

Originally Posted by Gonkish

Because we do a LOT in PvE. A lot of that is based off of Auto-Shot, and various other things, and they're trying to balance us out so that we pull roughly even with the other pure DPS classes; all while trying to ensure that we're not complete DPS gimps in PvP.

That can't be easy.

Well, I agree it's a tough cookie, but too me it seems there are still some available options.

If there's a problem it is that MM have gotten Chimera shot, an instant that is not linked to any other shot while BM and SV has not gotten any extra shot to use on the move.

If they wanted to increase our dps in pvp without affecting PvE much they could safely unlink aimed shot and multi shot. The problem with doing this as I see it now is that MM will get a great range of near-instants to pull off, it would give MM a further burst boost (where you can do serpent,arcane,aimed,chimera,readiness,chimera,aimed,arcane you could add multi-shot). However, with a 1.5 second GCD I'm not sure how bursty this will be? Not going to make any statements on that.

My point is simply that SV and BM are left with arcane/explosive and aimed/multi as shots to do on the move.

I would love to see theorycraft on the dps we do moving for all 3 speccs (i.e. assuming no auto-shots firing, or only firing for the 0.5 second we stop to fire multi shot, and no steady shot firing).

So, I'm not sure it is so difficult - if the continued arena testing shows that our dps is not good enough, one additional shot should be made possible to fire on the move (either auto-shot or steady shot, or unlinking multi-shot from aimed).

Ingmar · 11/03/08, 8:11 AM

Originally Posted by Griffen

Well, I agree it's a tough cookie, but too me it seems there are still some available options.

If there's a problem it is that MM have gotten Chimera shot, an instant that is not linked to any other shot while BM and SV has not gotten any extra shot to use on the move.

If they wanted to increase our dps in pvp without affecting PvE much they could safely unlink aimed shot and multi shot. The problem with doing this as I see it now is that MM will get a great range of near-instants to pull off, it would give MM a further burst boost (where you can do serpent,arcane,aimed,chimera,readiness,chimera,aimed,arcane you could add multi-shot). However, with a 1.5 second GCD I'm not sure how bursty this will be? Not going to make any statements on that.

My point is simply that SV and BM are left with arcane/explosive and aimed/multi as shots to do on the move.

I would love to see theorycraft on the dps we do moving for all 3 speccs (i.e. assuming no auto-shots firing, or only firing for the 0.5 second we stop to fire multi shot, and no steady shot firing).

So, I'm not sure it is so difficult - if the continued arena testing shows that our dps is not good enough, one additional shot should be made possible to fire on the move (either auto-shot or steady shot, or unlinking multi-shot from aimed).

BM gets to have way higher DPS from pets, I guess that should even out. However, sustained DPS like that is mostly useless versus healer teams (well also against double burst) and what you really miss is control rather than DPS.

If you're talking burst, then SV gets about the same as MM? I mean, explosive shot vs chimera? BM doesn't get the 51 point SV talent for free. Don't forget L&L arcane/explo's from Survival as well. In instant terms, this might even trump MM spec.

I think you'll see more TBW/Readiness hunters (50/21/0 or 47/21/3 perhaps) than Chimera shot ones in arenas, with the incredible amount of abilities other classes get (especially in combinations) to negate MM DPS and get close, compared to our tools to get in range again.

However, when considering 1v1 versus a priest/shaman (because yeah, druids and palas have tools to prevent this), the chimera/readiness spec might be a bit over the top, but not because of the burst I'd say. I'd say its because it enables us to silence AND scatter them twice in a row. Now, for a shaman this will mean he'll have to pop his NS at least, and the priest well... will likely just die unless pre-shielded, hotted and PS'd. But this is all speculation and will depend on LK healthpools

Griffen · 11/03/08, 7:16 PM

Originally Posted by Ingmar

BM gets to have way higher DPS from pets, I guess that should even out. However, sustained DPS like that is mostly useless versus healer teams (well also against double burst) and what you really miss is control rather than DPS.

If you're talking burst, then SV gets about the same as MM? I mean, explosive shot vs chimera? BM doesn't get the 51 point SV talent for free. Don't forget L&L arcane/explo's from Survival as well. In instant terms, this might even trump MM spec.

I think you'll see more TBW/Readiness hunters (50/21/0 or 47/21/3 perhaps) than Chimera shot ones in arenas, with the incredible amount of abilities other classes get (especially in combinations) to negate MM DPS and get close, compared to our tools to get in range again.

I really look forward to see how Readiness works for us. Perhaps it will be a savior, it's hard to say - good point about the silent-scatter combo.

I don't think the burst of LnL is as valuable, it is not possible to control (unless timing it with a trap) which makes it's utility much less. Had explosive shot and arcane shot been unlinked that had been another issue. And as explosive shot/arcane shot is our most valuable shot when on the move, I think you risk having it on CD most of the times LnL procs (and LnL does not clear the CD still does it?). I might be wrong about this though, but to me MM's burst looks better and more controllable.

Gonkish · 11/04/08, 1:15 PM

Originally Posted by Griffen

Well, I agree it's a tough cookie, but too me it seems there are still some available options.

If there's a problem it is that MM have gotten Chimera shot, an instant that is not linked to any other shot while BM and SV has not gotten any extra shot to use on the move.

That's the weird thing. Chimera is supposed to be the MM Arcane Shot replacement, and yet MM has Arcane damage boosting talents and Chimera is unlinked from Arcane? Weird. Not bad, just odd.

Ingmar · 11/05/08, 5:59 AM

Originally Posted by Griffen

I really look forward to see how Readiness works for us. Perhaps it will be a savior, it's hard to say - good point about the silent-scatter combo.

I don't think the burst of LnL is as valuable, it is not possible to control (unless timing it with a trap) which makes it's utility much less. Had explosive shot and arcane shot been unlinked that had been another issue. And as explosive shot/arcane shot is our most valuable shot when on the move, I think you risk having it on CD most of the times LnL procs (and LnL does not clear the CD still does it?). I might be wrong about this though, but to me MM's burst looks better and more controllable.

Uncontrollable is not always bad, think of swordspec/WF combo's which could decide a match. Of course, I agree the control of MM burst is nice to have.

That's the weird thing. Chimera is supposed to be the MM Arcane Shot replacement, and yet MM has Arcane damage boosting talents and Chimera is unlinked from Arcane? Weird. Not bad, just odd.

Where was this stated? I mean, arcane is fast and easy, chimera requires a sting and some management if you want to get the most out of it (no trapping on serpent/viper for example, meaning you have to switch stings etc). In that sense explosive shot is "just" an instant which requires nothing at all.