[Hunter] The PvP Thread - Page 2

Kaber · 01/02/08, 3:21 AM

Originally Posted by khel

So every week I spec for pvp for 3 days, then back to raiding for 4 days, and I want to use the same spec for my 2v2 and 5v5 teams. In my 2v2 team I am paired with a resto druid, and in 5v5 am trying to get a drain team going with a felguard warlock, resto druid, holy paladin, and disc priest. Both are extremely defensive, outlast teams so rarely is someone ever getting bursted down.

So even though I see most pvp hunters speccing mortal shots, wouldn't ranged weapon spec be better? With the specs I am debating, I have 6 points to spend and will probably put 5 points in RWS, and 1 point in mortal shots, but just was interested in other opinions.

Also in 2v2 it seems imp wing clip might be best, but in 5v5 entrapment is optimal, so I think that I will put 2 points in each instead of 3 in 1 talent, and 1 point in the other. This is the final spec I have in mind: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Well the issue of Mortal Shots is a bit of a complicated one with Resilience. Generally Hunters have somewhere between 25 and 30% crit in their PvP gear. I'll just take an average and say 27.5% is standard. Geared players generally have 350-497 resilience. I'll take 10.5% reduction to crits, and 21% reduction in crit damage as averages. That brings you down to 17% crit. Mortal Shots brings your Crit damage up to 130%, then apply the reduction from resilience and you get 102.7% bonus damage on crits. This is a total boost in damage on crits of 23.7%, and since you crit 17% of the time the bonus 4.1%. That is .82% damage per point in Mortal Shots. This means that 1 point in Humanoid slaying is better than 1 point in Ranged Weapon Specialization which is better than 1 point in Mortal Shots. I have also seen discussion on whether Combat experience is worth taking, but I don't recall the verdict. According to Cheekie's spread sheet RWS is better than CE, so I just assumed it to be true. I believe Careful Aim came in above RWS as well, but someone might want to double check that.

Tammy · 01/02/08, 3:55 AM

Mortal shots is a must due to it's "burstly" nature. You calculated that the bonus on crits is 23.7% then multiplied it by the crit rating (0.17) and thus reached the 4.1% per 5 talent points result. While it is true that this is the bonus Mortal Shots will give in terms of sustained DPS, in arena burst can be very crucial. I never saw a hunter without Mortal Shots tbh.

When you DO crit, you'll get that 23.7% bonus all at once rather than stack small 5% bonuses every shot with 5/5 RWS. Sustained dps is alot easier to heal through (especially for hot classes) than burst damage.

Loshiis · 01/02/08, 4:45 AM

I'm not convinced Beastial Swiftness is worth taking over Deterrence. Deterrence has saved me countless times from Rogues and Warriors, and Beastial Swiftness I can't see making up for that. Although I'm currently 0/43/18, I've been having issues with pet survivability in 2v2, and was considering This Spec, possibly switching two of the points in entrapment over to Thick Hide.

Thoughts?

Edit: I should mention my 2v2 consists of Hunter/Resto Shaman, and we're having issues with pet survivability against competent Druid/Warrior teams.

Caulwynd · 01/02/08, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by topojijo

First you'll want a macro that is simply /focus to quickly set who you want to be the focus.

Then for say silencing shot it's a simple macro like

#showtooltip Silencing Shot
/cast [target=focus,exists] Silencing Shot;

Then whenever you need to silence your focus target just hit this macro. As long as the target is in the front 180 degrees of you and in los/range they will get hit.

I use the following macro on Silencing Shot that lets me use it with a focus prioritized or normally without a focus:

#showtooltip Silencing Shot
/stopcasting
/cast [target=focus, exists] [target=target] Silencing Shot

Then I only have one bind for Silencing Shot.

Fimbo · 01/02/08, 1:22 PM

Does anyone have any links to pure PvP Hunter specs?

My build is a BM Raid Build, but as I can't play enough to raid anymore and my WoW is limited to the oldd PvP game i was thinking as i read this thread i could benefit from respeccing to MM...

Chulak · 01/02/08, 1:29 PM

Originally Posted by Fimbo

Does anyone have any links to pure PvP Hunter specs?

My build is a BM Raid Build, but as I can't play enough to raid anymore and my WoW is limited to the oldd PvP game i was thinking as i read this thread i could benefit from respeccing to MM...

I spec MM for both raiding and PvP, but my specs look very different for each application. I'm no expert on arena at this point (considering that this is my first season taking it seriously), but I've posted a link to my arena spec below. It's basically a MM/SV hybrid spec that focuses on PvP talents. Depending on the amount of Intellect on your gear, you might want to move the 3 points in Careful Aim into Ranged Weapon Specialization. I can tell you that this build is working well for arena thus far and is quite nasty in the battlegrounds as well.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

There are also a lot of very valid arguments for going to a 11/41/9 spec similar to the one below once you hit the 1600-1700 bracket in arena, as feedback suggests this is when opponents seem to start focus firing your pet. The point in bestial swiftness helps the pet keep up with a healer on the run, and harassing the healer is the pet's primary job.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Bondok · 01/02/08, 5:46 PM

Question for 2v2/3v3 teams:

What do you do to survive against a Stealth/Invisible; Rogue, Mage or Druids initial assault? (considering you have a Restore Druid as your healer)

On several occasions you may of or may have been hit by a Rogue's Cheapshot/Sap or a Frost Nova from a Mage or a Pounce (Whatever the Feral Druid combo is). I'm curious how other Hunters survive this. Do you just kite through a Freezing Trap, hit Deterrance and spam Wing Clip and hope that your healer is good enough to keep you healed? Maybe Warstomp, Kite (Taurens)?

I play a Tauren Hunter with a Restore Druid and lately have been encountering a lot of Rogues even Dual Rogue combos (2v2 or 3v3), Druid/Rogue or Mage/Rogue. They literally shred me up and toss Blinds on my Druid or even worse Sap me, Blind me and shred my partner into submission. Possibly it's a gear check on my partners part but we've been stuggling with our first 2 weeks in a Druid/Hunter combo or a Rogue/Druid/Hunter combo.

I believe I'm kiting correctly and doing everything I can to mana drain the healers, CC/Concuss/Trap attacking Melee on my partners all while DPSing. I'm using Focus as well as Macros to target Focus. It's just surviving the first 30 seconds of combat that usually breaks us.

I'm currently 388 Resilience with 12,500 HP and around 1900 AP, 31% crit and 0/42/19 specc'd. Scorpid Pet with rank 4 Poison and Viper Stinging like no tomorrow.

Maybe something I'm missing or it truely is just a Gear Check on my partners part.

Any thoughts?

Also Terrain has been a factor but I think that just comes with time.

Caulwynd · 01/02/08, 6:23 PM

For stealthers I always play much more defensively. I make sure a frost trap is on the ground at all times and will start laying flares down. We usually let the stealthers open/get pulled out of stealth.

As far as surviving rogues or druid melee, kiting over a frost trap and having teammates that can heal you and/or CC your attackers is beneficial to you. Paladin BoF is great against Rogues and Warriors.

Even throughout the engagement I will be popping flares once their cooldown is up. Same with frost traps.

Trohck · 01/02/08, 6:38 PM

At your level of resilience and stamina you should be able to survive an initial assault. It's possible your healer is undergeared, but here are some ideas:

1. Keep flares and Frost trap up, preferably near a pillar so you can LoS.
2. Use scattershot to get distance.
3. If you're up against a mage only, you can use your trinket to break freeze if you're going to die.
4. Vs. rogues, deterrence. Vs. mages, LoS.
5. Your druid should help by cycloning the rogue (and should stay out of LoS of mages to avoid counterspell).
6. Vs. a rogue, trinket blind. Your partner should as well.
7. Playing a hunter with a druid takes time to get used to. Communicate with your teammates frequently and try to come up with at least one thing you each could have done differently to help with the match.
8. Turn on detect stealth vs. rogues and druids and stay mobile while spamming tab. Don't get sapped!
9. Vs. invisimages, remember they can't see you either, so move to an unintuitive location.
10. Silence /scatter on DPS early helps disrupt an initial burndown and also means you'll probably live to use them a second time.
11. If a rogue is on your partner, scatter + Freezing trap.

Kaber · 01/02/08, 7:25 PM

Originally Posted by Tammy

Mortal shots is a must due to it's "burstly" nature. You calculated that the bonus on crits is 23.7% then multiplied it by the crit rating (0.17) and thus reached the 4.1% per 5 talent points result. While it is true that this is the bonus Mortal Shots will give in terms of sustained DPS, in arena burst can be very crucial. I never saw a hunter without Mortal Shots tbh.

When you DO crit, you'll get that 23.7% bonus all at once rather than stack small 5% bonuses every shot with 5/5 RWS. Sustained dps is alot easier to heal through (especially for hot classes) than burst damage.

Hunters have not been a burst DPS class in a very long time. Trying to cling to that old way of thinking when our primary role is now that of a mana draining/longevity class is a bit of a paradox.

Trohck · 01/02/08, 8:38 PM

Even though Hunters are not a burst DPS class, burst damage is still useful for them. I don't think acknowledging that is "clinging to that old way of thinking." Like Tammy mentioned it is easier to heal through sustained DPS. Additionally, burst is useful for creating pressure on healers to heal and DPS to get out of LoS. When pressure is constantly changing it is harder to make correct decisions.

Maynard · 01/02/08, 10:27 PM

In my experience, the best hunters would use burst at times when I'm already under high pressure (e.g. if I have a 2-stack of scorpid, a viper, and a team-mate has been dotted down to 70%) in order to force me to choose between countering the drain, and healing a weak team-mate. It's short-cooldown and highly controllable burst with few drawbacks, so long as you don't try and use it all the time. Burst is also a great way to force healers out of drinking if they're kiting your pet on BEM, or if you want to keep a healer busy while you revive a pet. Perhaps most importantly, burst is also surprisingly unexpected in the context of a drain team - and when you spend 3 minutes watching mana bars, an SWD, Nightfall proc, and steady->multi->arcane will definetly surprise you.

Tammy · 01/03/08, 1:42 AM

Originally Posted by Maynard

In my experience, the best hunters would use burst at times when I'm already under high pressure (e.g. if I have a 2-stack of scorpid, a viper, and a team-mate has been dotted down to 70%) in order to force me to choose between countering the drain, and healing a weak team-mate. It's short-cooldown and highly controllable burst with few drawbacks, so long as you don't try and use it all the time. Burst is also a great way to force healers out of drinking if they're kiting your pet on BEM, or if you want to keep a healer busy while you revive a pet. Perhaps most importantly, burst is also surprisingly unexpected in the context of a drain team - and when you spend 3 minutes watching mana bars, an SWD, Nightfall proc, and steady->multi->arcane will definetly surprise you.

Exactly, well timed burst is key. I find using it at clutch moments is extremely powerful and like I said, I have never ever seen any competitive hunter without mortal shots. I find it unthinkable.

Edit - Funny, but I just noticed that with my stats the number mortal shots gives is 4.995%, so in my case there is absolutely no question what's better, mortal shots all the way.

My crit isn't too high either (31.58%), I focused on AP enchants/gems this season mostly.

Generally speaking the value of mortal shots increases as your crit increases, or your opponents resilience decreases. Since you used the resilience value of well geared opponents, it's only fair to assume that the hunter is also well geared, and should have 30% crit (25% is quite low for someone in arena gear+honor items, I had 32% in S2 gear). That brings the value of Mortal Shots to 4.6% minimum.

lyger · 01/03/08, 5:36 AM

Does anyone know how to make a focus viper macro that vipers your current target when your focus is dead. Its pretty annoying when I'm trying to viper someone else and it keeps targeting the dead body.

Caulwynd · 01/03/08, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by lyger

Does anyone know how to make a focus viper macro that vipers your current target when your focus is dead. Its pretty annoying when I'm trying to viper someone else and it keeps targeting the dead body.

Modify the Silencing Shot macro I posted above except substitute Viper Sting for Silencing Shot:

Originally Posted by Caulwynd

I use the following macro on Silencing Shot that lets me use it with a focus prioritized or normally without a focus:

#showtooltip Silencing Shot
/stopcasting
/cast [target=focus, exists] [target=target] Silencing Shot

Then I only have one bind for Silencing Shot.

If your focus is dead, the first conditional will fail and it will fall to the next conditional - i.e., are you targeting anybody? If so it will cast.

Vasilii · 01/03/08, 1:20 PM

Just wanted to share my experiences with a somewhat different approach to Hunter/Priest.

In limited playtime this season with decent PVP gear we've hit 1810 so far, not great but hoping we can get over 1850 for the sexy bow.

I have 320ish Res with close to 13k HP Buffed, 1631 AP, 38% Crit... Priest has around 300 Res but is still wearing several primal mooncloth pieces /cry

A Gladiator Hunter who teams with a resto sham suggested this spec and which I have tried with my priest and liked so far:

0/26/35

It focuses on Max CC which is ideal for hunter/healer 2v2 being as you are an outlast team.

Pros:
- Wyvern Sting is godly for double dps teams for living through the initial burst, also quite valuable vs. healer/dps teams because often the games will last over 8 minutes meaning that you can use it multiple times.
- Counterattack is actually very useful, first time I've played with it but its really nice knowing i can pop deterrence and are pretty much guaranteed a parry so that i can immobilize a rogue/war for 5 seconds. Its a nice way to get away with caught in crippling poison/hamstring with no other CDs up.
- With reduced trap cooldowns and clever traps, makes life hell for warriors/rogues
- Very high Cirt %

Cons:
- Cannot use scorpid pet because of lack of pet speed
- If Pet dies its very hard to rez him and the fight may be lost
- No SS against mages hurts, against healers it doesn't seem to matter since we are mana draining them anyway.
- Low AP, Crit seems to be more important anyway for times when you want to burst targets down

Why not a Scorpid?
- With this build you must use a pet with dash and not a scorpid. Otherwise you will never beat a DPS/Druid team.
- Mana drain is still quite effective against most targets.
- Pallys dont seem to be a problem at all, they will burn their mana quickly regardless if the viper is ticking away or not and With the extra CC i know the warrior isnt going to be a problem for me or my priest. Also Fear + Mana Burn + Viper is extremely effective against Pallies/Druids in dropping their mana pool in a hurry.
- Against priest or shammy healers, scropid is fairly useless anyway as you dont need to cover the sting. Cat also does more passive DPS.
- Start off the fight with pet dismissed, once the action starts I summon him and send him off towards the healer. This seems to work decently well in that a rogue cant pop out and insta-gib the pet and a warrior will not start focusing on him right away.

Tough Combos

War/Druid
Against war/druid in our bracket we are probably about 60/40 win/loss. Times we lose is when my pet gets gibbed. If the warriors gets on him i Wingclip or scatter/trap the warrior and then send him off with dash to get the healer. If the healer brings him back to the war i try to dismiss him then resummon him later. The problem is pets just go down so damn fast, WTB res for pets please!

Ice Mage/Rogue
We've been quite pleased versus ice mage/rogue. If they go for my priest i can usually CC the rogue enough to allow the priest to live through the initial burst even if i get shepped a time or 2. I stay on the mage, mana draining and dpsing him, I can usually kill him while keeping the rogue CCed enough. Even if my priest dies, if I kill the mage I can almost always beat a rogue without CDs.

These are always very close fights though. However if they are smart they will go for me and sheep the priest which usually means we lose.

Lock/Druid
SL/SL Lock/Druid seems to give us the most trouble. I think we've only beat the combo twice out of 6 or so matches. Our best successes come from this strategy:
I'm on lock pet while priest stays on druid, when druid comes out to heal, fear + mana burn + viper. Once the driud gets low on mana we simply try to burn him down, it seems to waste too much time/mana to try to kill the locks pet twice, we can usually take the druid down if he gets low.

Someone previously mentioned that you have to be agressive against this combo which i agree with, seems unlikely you will be able to outlast them as they do more damage and the lock pretty much will never run out of mana. Plus after you kill his felhound he will summon a voidwalker which is very hard to take down.

SPriest/Rogue
Shadow Priest / Rogue is a very hard combo for us as well though I'm not sure how common this is. We only have beaten them once and i got lucky killing both the rogue and the shadow priest after my priest went down. Battlemaster trinket saved us here for sure... I would highly recommend getting one as its really nice to give yourself the extra bump in health.

Lock/Rogue
Have not beat this combo so far, between all their CCs, its easy for them to CC the priest while they kill me.

Hunter/Druid
Only played one so far but I would think the strategy is to mana burn the hunter ASAP, since the druid cant mana burn the hunters mana should drop very quickly. Then scatter/trap, fear, wyvern sting the druid to kill the hunter pet. After that your priest should be able to get OOC and drink while your pet will still be on the druid and eventually you should win that fight.

Easy Combos
Pally/War or Priest/War or Priest/Rogue we almost always win these games, I can keep the dps on lockdown until we mana drain the healer.

I'm debating on trying the 11/41/9 spec for pet speed and improved pet rez, but i fear this will limited our effectiveness against those double dps combos. However Improved Pet rez and speed seems pretty much key to beating those war/druid combos consistently.

any advice on this?

Anyone have comments or similar strategies to share against tough druid/lock, ice mage/rogue, spriest/rogue combos?

random
Against DPS/Healer Teams, once the healer gets low on mana he will generally only be focusing on getting away from your pet to converse mana, its usually then that you can burst down the dps, especially if your priest throws a smite or SW-D in the mix.

But in generally, with teams like Druid/War, Druid/Rogue or other dps healer teams, do you find it easier to kill the healer or the DPS after the healer is OOM?

Caulwynd · 01/03/08, 2:52 PM

Originally Posted by Vasilii

I'm debating on trying the 11/41/9 spec for pet speed and improved pet rez, but i fear this will limited our effectiveness against those double dps combos. However Improved Pet rez and speed seems pretty much key to beating those war/druid combos consistently.

What I'd like to know is how many double DPS teams you'll see at higher ratings. I've also pondered the same question and have been concerned about reducing my effectiveness against double DPS. What I've decided to do was to spec for improved revive pet if we find ourselves facing more often Druid + DPS teams at the higher end of the bracket and utilize a spec emphasizing damage to climb up through the double DPS teams.

Originally Posted by Vasilii

Anyone have comments or similar strategies to share against tough druid/lock...combos?

I agree with your aggressive approach on lock/druid. I run Priest/Hunter as well and what we did on wins against that combo was to have me burn the Warlock and to Viper/mana burn the Druid when he came out to heal. We ignored the lock pet and I just had to be incredibly aggressive against the Warlock to be able to kill him.

Vasilii · 01/03/08, 3:23 PM

Originally Posted by Caulwynd

What I'd like to know is how many double DPS teams you'll see at higher ratings. I've also pondered the same question and have been concerned about reducing my effectiveness against double DPS. What I've decided to do was to spec for improved revive pet if we find ourselves facing more often Druid + DPS teams at the higher end of the bracket and utilize a spec emphasizing damage to climb up through the double DPS teams.

There seems to be a good mix of double dps and healer/dps teams at least in the 1700's-1800s range. We were actually breathing a sigh of relief when we get healer/dps after facing some nasty rogue/shadow priest combo several games in a row.

An additional strategy for the 0/25/36 spec may be to not use your pet at all against dps/healer teams until you must keep the healer in combat, and are fairly confident you can burn one of the targets down, this would seem to elimante your pet getting gibbed early in the fight and losing the match.

lyger · 01/03/08, 6:17 PM

It didnt work Caul but thanks anyway. but this one did

#showtooltip Viper Sting
/stopcasting
/cast [target=focus,exists,nodead] Viper Sting; Viper Sting

also. would u happen to know how to cancel aspect of the cheetah without waiting for GCD.

/cancelaura Aspect of the Cheetah
/cast Aspect of the Cheetah

This used to work but for some reason it wont cancel til after gcd

Dreamflow · 01/04/08, 3:55 PM

In 2v2 I usually play with Healer and we mana drian but when they get oom I also do and I fail alot at finishing them off from that point, what might I be doing wrong? (This happens as MM and BM)

Loshiis · 01/04/08, 7:40 PM

Take your pet off, feign, drink, put pet back on. Even if you only get a few ticks of water in, you can do it every 30 seconds, even out in the open.

Maynard · 01/05/08, 2:52 AM

Hopefully a brief question: I'm currently playing in a Hunter/Warrior/Warlock/Paladin/Priest setup, we're all pretty inexperienced (1700 so far). I'm not yet facing good teams but I'm curious how many teams will focus me and, as a consequence, would the last stand heroic badge trinket be a worthwhile investment, the bloodlust brooch, or something else? My experience so far is tending towards the former but I'm unsure if these teams are just making crucial strategic mistakes or not.

Edit: Also debating crit vs. AP trinket. The vanilla WoWer in me wants the crit trinket, the rational guy wants the AP one. If anyone can rationalise the former for me, that'd be convenient indeed.

Loshiis · 01/05/08, 7:16 AM

I can't see any competent team being able to leave a Priest and a Warlock alone to mana burn them, since you'll be mana burning them whether they focus you or not. If it's a 4 DPS team they may be a little more likely to focus you since they can control your DPS, but it really depends then on how many 4 DPS teams you're facing. The battlemaster trinket is a nice trinket to have anyways, so you might as well get it just in case.

Myself, I took the AP one, and I'd love to throw tons of math at you to show why I did it, but I just liked it more.

Vasilii · 01/07/08, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Maynard

Edit: Also debating crit vs. AP trinket. The vanilla WoWer in me wants the crit trinket, the rational guy wants the AP one. If anyone can rationalise the former for me, that'd be convenient indeed.

I debated the same for a while...

I think for a PVE situation the AP trinket hands down, but for PVE I took the crit trinket. Most in times you will either be:

1) Mana Draining healer + applying some dps but only with the goal to drain mana and not to kill target
2) After healer is dry, attempting to burst down target
3) Attempting to burst down target quickly at the beginning

#2 or #3 - this is where I feel the crit trinket is more valuable than the AP one... and in situation #1, the goal is mana drain, not killing the target.

Kaber · 01/08/08, 7:12 AM

Originally Posted by Vasilii

I debated the same for a while...

I think for a PVE situation the AP trinket hands down, but for PVE I took the crit trinket. Most in times you will either be:

1) Mana Draining healer + applying some dps but only with the goal to drain mana and not to kill target
2) After healer is dry, attempting to burst down target
3) Attempting to burst down target quickly at the beginning

#2 or #3 - this is where I feel the crit trinket is more valuable than the AP one... and in situation #1, the goal is mana drain, not killing the target.

Does anyone else use the Mark of Conquest? I know I'm missing the small heal and a bit of the AP, but I like getting mana back. In a raid environment its equal to 35 MP5, I'm guessing in a PvP environment it's probably closer to 20-25 since you generally fire off fewer shots in a set amount of time. But still, over the course of a long game it can really add up. I was also considering the Heroic trinket from Slave Pens (or Underbog?) with resilience and mana returned everytime you get hit. Does anyone have an opinion on those trinkets?