[Shaman] PvP + Enhancement = ? - Page 13

gunsmithx · 02/14/08, 12:43 AM

if it's just the error message try

/script UIErrorsFrame:RegisterEvent("UI_ERROR_MESSAGE");

after the /use, I believe thats the line, I can't check in game for my macros atm. I'll update if it's different

Kiaela · 02/14/08, 5:22 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

That seems odd, I tried to macro an On Use AP trinket to an ability on my druid alt and it freaked out with errors when the trinket was on cooldown.

Could you maybe post the macro you used Malan.

And about error messages I got all error messages disabled, so I dont really care about them as long as the macros work

gorsameth · 02/15/08, 9:54 AM

lots of nice information in this thread but my 3v3 has been running into problems as we try and get up into the higher 1600's. Currently running a resto druid, retri paladin and myself as enhancement we have real problems with high cc teams.

Esp mage/lock + druid teams as they can chain fear /cyclone or silence the druid as soon as i start losing health meaning he cant heal and i just die with ~10k hp and 277 resilience.

Biggest problem we have run into today was a mage/rogue/druid team because all 3 have tomany ways of escaping from the burst of the paladin and myself before i get nuked on a chain cc on our druid.

Kiaela · 02/15/08, 10:27 AM

fear shouldnt be a problem, put down ur tremor totem every time when druid is in fear or your totem isnt down focus the druid put the pala slow thingy on the druid and interrupt the sheeps with a eartshock focus macro

I would also suggest get some more resilince and put on a shield and try to los the mage when facing mage/rogue drood

but sheep shouldnt be a real prob for your setup, you got blessing of sacrifice and pala can dispell the same

Krom[Fenris] · 02/15/08, 6:29 PM

I'm relatively clueless when it comes to PVP, but have been trying to get my feet wet some. What is the value of armor pentration in PVP vs. resilience. I would think it'd be pretty useful. Reason I ask is that I'm looking at the PVP neck and ring, and it just doesn't appear like that great an idea to replace [Choker of Serrated Blades] and [Signet of Primal Wrath] for a bit of resilience. Am I just completely off base about the value of armor penetration in PVP?

jlavarj · 02/15/08, 7:23 PM

Armor penetration is a good stat in pvp, but until you have 350 resilience, it's not worth sacraficing any stat for resilience. Enhance shaman are so squishy in pvp that the first goal is to get to 10k + hp and 350 resilience. After that you can swap in your gear with armor pen, ap, etc on it.

Once you hit those marks, armor pen is very good against clothies, esp stacked with an executioner enchant on your main hand. One of the benefits of an enhance shaman is we bring the most aggressive dispelling in the game to an arena match, mostly because once your totems are down and between stormstrike and shock cooldowns, there isn't a lot left to do. It's very easy to reduce the cloth classes to their base armor value by purging inner fire, fel armor, and frost armor (if a mage is silly enough to have it on).

Taowth · 02/15/08, 7:25 PM

Armor Penetration is totally overrated. For PvE where you're hitting a boss with 80+% FLurry uptime and big crit/ap it can add up yes, but for PvP the time you're hitting someone is limited and the extra 10 dmg from armor pen isnt going to mean much in the long run compared to you, i dunno, staying alive?
From numbers i ran a little bit back, executioner's 850 armor pen wasnt worth more than 650 dmg with totally optimal situation on its duration, and you're asking about significantly lower numbers like gain 100 armor pen vs real survivability. Dont forget that the neck ring also have armor pen if you love it so much, just not as much but theres also crit too.

For you gorsameth, your problem seems to be 100% about team communication. There should be little reason why your team is having so much trouble vs druid/rogue/mage.
Tremor totem is godly......if you're not the one getting feared. If you're feared then its 75% junk. However if its other people getting fear with you free to act, its awesome. It pulses like .1 sec after place, so pretty much your druid or ret pld simply needs to call out "Feared" and you redrop tremor. Not only that but your paladin partner can cleanse a fear.

Your druid needs to use range and line of sight to his advantage. Imp CS wont be what kills you since you'll have dots on, it'll be the spell lockdown if it happens during a nature spell. For your druid, make sure he knows CS is a 30 yard range so if the mage is a decent range off from you then its all about the druid's positioning to prevent getting CSd without the mage actually having to run into range to do it. HoTs and movement are your friend.

Then you comment on mage/rogue/druid avoiding your teams burst, i dont see how. You should generally be targetting the rogue unless you have some split dps, not because your combined dps couldnt get the mage or because of frost novas, but because of stuns from the rogue. With freedom on you, and cleanses on himself for the nova, combined with poison cleanse totem spam and abolish poison from druid, crippling shouldnt be an issue for either melee, but when you get kidneyd that gives the mage time to run. You can go for the mage though because that will keep him moving and a little bit of dps pressure off without free casted frostbolts. It'll depend on the rogue you're facing though, so give it a try.
I'd still try the rogue first. Now he's almost always going to dps you first. The paladin should put blessing of sacrifice on you, that makes him immune to sheep and blind, and your druid can just shapeshift out of sheep so he can save his trinket for a blind or a full duration cyclone in a pinch. Defensive cleansing from the paladin to get rid of novas to prevent a shatter combo and then you load all dps on the rogue. He'll likely evasion early with double melee on him, and what happens then is simple. Your paladin saves HoJ specifically for evasion. You cant dodge while stunned, and he'll pop it as an "Oh shit" preventive type of move cause he knows he'll get smashed. If it looks like you'll be able to smash him in that time he can repentance the druid too to stop heals. After the HoJ is over, the rogue will likely vanish, and just make sure the paladin keeps refreshing consecrate.

However if the rogue targets the paladin and you get sheep spammed, then i'd say go for the mage. You're the one with the slows, so it doesnt particularly matter if the paladin gets the occasional kidney shot and his dps drops off, you'll still be able to catch them after that blink or nova once cleansed/broken, so he wont really be able to kite you like he could the ret paladin, and then freedom on the paladin will keep crippling off and he only worries about kidneys. He can cleanse your sheeps so the spam wont mean much and the dps from the mage drops a good amount. In this case you'd likely be CC focused by te druid too though, but cyclone isnt that big a deal its roots that are mostly annoying but again cleanse from your ret friend is key there.

So to sum it up, Cleanse and Tremor will let you prevail, you just need your teammates to not be bad and know how to use them and how to position themselves.

Kiaela · 02/15/08, 8:26 PM

offensive stats are nice to have and some armor penetration 2, but it all depends on the bracket you play in and your setup how much resilince/hp you really need.

I personally put on more resilince for 5on5 and swap in some more dmg pve rings/neck/trinkets for 2vs2 and 3on3

About focusing rogues, I think it all depends on the rogues specc, if it is really worth to focus him. I personally nearly always encounter shadowstep rogues and with 2 times evasion, buggy cheat death etc. We never focused them

panny · 02/16/08, 1:00 AM

Originally Posted by Taowth

Armor Penetration is totally overrated. For PvE where you're hitting a boss with 80+% FLurry uptime and big crit/ap it can add up yes, but for PvP the time you're hitting someone is limited and the extra 10 dmg from armor pen isnt going to mean much in the long run compared to you, i dunno, staying alive?
From numbers i ran a little bit back, executioner's 850 armor pen wasnt worth more than 650 dmg with totally optimal situation on its duration, and you're asking about significantly lower numbers like gain 100 armor pen vs real survivability. Dont forget that the neck ring also have armor pen if you love it so much, just not as much but theres also crit too.

Where are you getting 650 damage from? Can you actually post your numbers instead of these half-assed exaggerations? Here's my comparison of Mongoose vs Executioner.

From this calculator, 850 armour penetration will be a 8.5% increase if you bring a target down to zero armour. That's more than the 4.5% crit chance increase due to mongoose. If you consider the average Shaman to have 16% crit after resilence, 4.5% crit gives 121/116.5 extra damage = 3% extra damage. That's not even counting resilence's effect on bonus crit damage. Executioner also increases the max possible hit of your weapons, giving you greater burst.

Even going with higher values of armour (10k), Executioner seems to still be worth more than Mongoose. The dodge/armour from agi is nice, but if I'm the focus, I'll switch to a Mongoose MH/Shield anyway. There's no reason to go with Mongoose unless you're concerned with Flurry/Shamanistic Focus.

Jarlaxle · 02/17/08, 1:47 AM

Are there any good enhancement pvp video links?

Didn't see any under the video section

Malan · 02/18/08, 11:01 AM

Push said he's putting one together soon, no idea when it will be done though.

Jarlaxle · 02/18/08, 2:08 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

Push said he's putting one together soon, no idea when it will be done though.

Okay awesome. I can't wait.

I've have tried to read up on this whole post so far.

Right now what I am struggling with (besides gear) is setting up my keyboard for bindings.

I really want to get things set up, so by the time I have more gear, I will be used to what I am suppose to do (I still click too much).

So that leads me to my question on how you guys have your keybindings set up?

Do you still have your default movements as " a-strafe left, s-backwards, w-forwards, d-strafe right " and keybind around it? I only have bound q-purge, and e-bloodlust so far. I am also comfertable with using the numbers 1-5 on my keyboard being "1-SR,2-SS,3-ES,4-FS,5-Trinket"

Finally, I read that someone uses a binding for q-focus earthshock and shift +q your target earthshock. What is the difference between these two?

Thanks,
Reyhan.

panny · 02/18/08, 8:09 PM

I've completely changed my mind on two handed weapons.... at least with regard to pets. The 0 resilence, burst, and reduced chance of tained blood meant that my [Axe of the Gronn Lords] was superior to my [Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver] in 2v2 when they had a healer.

I recently tried 2v2 with a restokin druid and the total package of damage/healing/CC really compliments our play. Went up to 1900 on *~*~BG 9~*~* before we had any losses. Out of all the teams we faced, War/Druid was the only one that gave us trouble. Alternating Cyclones is just an incredible tool for locking someone's health down and Wrath spam is great for bursting someone health down as well as killing pets.

thevidon · 02/18/08, 11:54 PM

Originally Posted by panny

I've completely changed my mind on two handed weapons.... at least with regard to pets. The 0 resilence, burst, and reduced chance of tained blood meant that my [Axe of the Gronn Lords] was superior to my [Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver] in 2v2 when they had a healer.

I recently tried 2v2 with a restokin druid and the total package of damage/healing/CC really compliments our play. Went up to 1900 on *~*~BG 9~*~* before we had any losses. Out of all the teams we faced, War/Druid was the only one that gave us trouble. Alternating Cyclones is just an incredible tool for locking someone's health down and Wrath spam is great for bursting someone health down as well as killing pets.

Were you only using 2h for pets or was it most of the time?

panny · 02/19/08, 12:24 AM

Originally Posted by thevidon

Were you only using 2h for pets or was it most of the time?

Just for pets. Actually just for Felhunters, didn't think of it for Scorpids and had my partner blow up the Voidwalker.

Herrera · 02/19/08, 6:09 AM

Originally Posted by Jarlaxle

Finally, I read that someone uses a binding for q-focus earthshock and shift +q your target earthshock. What is the difference between these two?

"q-focus shock" refers to shocking the player which is on Focus (set with /focus), but not necessarily your target. Example, vs warrior/paladin, you target the warrior, but paladin is set as your focus, so you can shock the paladin without targeting him. A simple macro for that would be something like:

/cast [modifier:shift,target=focus] Earth Shock(Rank 1); Earth Shock

This will work only if you have focus target set with /focus. There are more fancy macros out there to check for focus dead etc, this is just to give you idea what it does. There are Unit Frame addons which display your focus target and it's spell casts. Focus target is not the same as your target (unless you target the focus)

Jarlaxle · 02/19/08, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Herrera

"q-focus shock" refers to shocking the player which is on Focus (set with /focus), but not necessarily your target. Example, vs warrior/paladin, you target the warrior, but paladin is set as your focus, so you can shock the paladin without targeting him. A simple macro for that would be something like:

/cast [modifier:shift,target=focus] Earth Shock(Rank 1); Earth Shock

This will work only if you have focus target set with /focus. There are more fancy macros out there to check for focus dead etc, this is just to give you idea what it does. There are Unit Frame addons which display your focus target and it's spell casts. Focus target is not the same as your target (unless you target the focus)

Awesome, thanks for the explination.

Illundai · 02/20/08, 12:02 AM

Shaman-

# Ghost Wolf: Cast time reduced to 2 seconds, down from 3.
# Tremor Totem now pulses every 3 seconds, down from 4.

From the newest patchnotes. Can't complain, I suppose?

• Juice · 02/20/08, 12:03 AM

What does talented ghost wolf do then?

panny · 02/20/08, 12:09 AM

Originally Posted by Illundai

Shaman-

# Ghost Wolf: Cast time reduced to 2 seconds, down from 3.
# Tremor Totem now pulses every 3 seconds, down from 4.

From the newest patchnotes. Can't complain, I suppose?

Talented Ghost Wolf becomes instant cast? That'll be pretty awesome.

Malan · 02/20/08, 12:09 AM

If it hasn't changed its now instant cast. I'm logging on the PTR right now to check.

[e] Bah they haven't actually pushed it to the server yet.

thevidon · 02/20/08, 12:53 AM

Instant ghost wolf will make chasing down people much easier - not a huge buff, but for those of us that like the talent its a nice buff. Now if only it wasn't dispellable......

panny · 02/20/08, 1:12 AM

It'll also make getting away easier (with my lag, Ghost Wolf seems to take an age). Getting away from pets especially. I wonder if Resto Shaman will spec into Enhancement for it (12 points in Enhancement for Guardian Totems is already being used by some people).

Xiphus · 02/20/08, 4:08 AM

Ghostwolf is still dispellable though so its not going to help getting away most of the time.

Killu · 02/20/08, 7:08 AM

I think the ghost wolf change is going to help quite a bit, since it only costs 100 mana we'll be able to spam it. It will also help for buff protection(mainly against Hunters, Warlock and Mages).

I'll probably try out my Blood Guard's Mailwalkers in arena matches.

Lets hope it hits the PTR soon and then eventually goes live.

Edit: I'll probably drop 5/5 Healing Focus for 3/3 Healing Grace and 5/5 Unleashed Rage (have 3/5 atm)