WoW Forums -> [Bug] Shaman "Toughness"

Hortus confirms that Toughness is not supposed to affect Root effects. Bummer.

That's a great suggestion...if we were dealing with PvE mobs. The issue is resilence and while you could input data into the simulator to account for the decreased crit chance there is, currently, no way to take into account resilence's effect in decreasing the actual damage of each critical strike.

I will now reiterate that I will not be taking this talent if it goes live in its current format. I'd rather have the extra dodge% or healing pushback protection - both are better talents for those 5 points. I was honestly split about 50/50 on taking the talent even if it affected roots/nova. Now that it doesn't it really is WAY too expensive; they should have added it to a talent we already take - like anticipation.

Why can't the damn dev's actually give us something that might actually help us?

Edit* Yes I know that warriors will have to spend that extra GCD to keep hamstring on us if we take the talent. Yipee, I am jumping for joy.

In addition, there are alot more variables such as contact time, target defenses, and friendly support.

Dodge is good for avoiding the odd MS/hamstring, but armour is alot better for when you're stunned (alot of the time against mace warriors). I took the 4/5 Toughness before it had snare reduction and I'll take it after. I'm currently not specced Toughness and I notice lot more problems with rogues (such that I am losing duels to people I was beating before repeccing).

10% Armor is negligible for the points spent - even in the odd times I am forced to slap on a shield because I know a stunlock is coming that only equates to another 1200ish armor...usually only 600ish AF 95% of the time.

Unable to edit from my office comp, so posting a new thought here - I have not been able to get my shaman on the PTR to check this, nor have I seen it mentioned yet:

Does the new Flametongue MS stack with Wound Poison/Warrior MS? E.G. Warrior MS'ed target is reduced by 50%, and if a rogue is on the same target, each application of WP counts as a 5% bonus (instead of the usual 10%) for a 75% total reduction.

An even crazier thought is if all three somehow stack, even if you factor in diminishing returns...

How does resilience effect hit and crit. I mean, Blizzard uses a 1 roll system. So when you attack you can either hit, miss or crit. It does not reroll after you hit to see if that hit was a crit. This is why the EP value of crit is higher than the EP value of hit. So my question is how does resilience affect that? Does the decrease chance to crit part of resil change a certain percentage of crits to hits after the roll? Does the decrease chance to crit part of resil decrease your overall chance to crit before the roll? If it's before you roll, that would also then increase your chance to miss.

Resilience reduces your opponent's crit chance, so its effect is applied before the roll. But it has nothing to do with your miss rate, less crit = more normal hits.

You've worked how much armor Toughness gives... but you haven't actually explained why you think 1200 armour is negligible.

Panny: Fair enough. 1200 armor is relatively OK - for the 3-5% of the time I have a shield equippped. The majority of the time I will be dual wielding, this recieving 600ish armor - for five talent points spent. Where do you cut the points? I find *at this current time* that other talents provide better returns per point spent. Post 2.4 the reduction in snares might be interesting, I am not impressed that it does not affect roots though.

Rather than rehash some of the points I made on a test realm post, I'll just link to it. The toughness armor bonus works out to somewhere between 1% and 2% damage reduction without a shield, for 5 talent points. That's a terrible return on the investment, and I can't justify the 5 points for the tiny amount of time I wear a shield in arenas. With the snare reduction not affecting roots, I'm trying to think which classes it helps us with... hunters? Except that it won't do anything against frost trap. And it'll require warriors put a bit more effort into keeping us off their healers, but you'll forgive me if I don't think that's a great way to spend 5 points. At least if it affected roots it'd be a great counter to frost mages.

I'm well aware of the limitations of the simulation for PvP purposes. However, EP values are derived from the sim and thus don't take resilience into account either, so why would you think that they would be better than using the simulator? (Or did you just not read the quote I was responding to?)

I guess a lot of it comes down to team composition. I'm in between serious arena teams right now, but my 2v2 partner is a hunter and 3v3 is warlock/priest. So I'm pretty much left to my own devices to stay on target - dispel in the 3v3 helps, but it's no BoF. And particularly running a 2v2 two DPS team, losing Healing Focus is a non-trivial thing.

Also, I never said toughness was useless vs. a warrior, that's a complete straw man. What I said was that I don't think it's worth 5 talent points. As it stands, I see toughness helping against hunters, other shaman, and warriors. Of those three, it's only actually going to stop kiting vs. hunters and other shaman (not that enhancement has trouble with resto/ele anyways). A warrior will burn twice the rage and GCDs on hamstring as normal, but he can still keep you off the healer if he wants to. We're still the only melee DPS class without an instant way to close the gap and/or remove movement-impairing effects. If 2.4 goes live like that, I don't think Blizzard will have made good on their stated goal of making enhancement a viable 2v2 spec.

No player created healing debuffs in the game stack. There's a hard cap of 50% and that's it. Currently, if a target is Aimed Shoted, it will remove the Wounding Posion stacks, probably even MS since duration is longer.

Hey guys and gals,

I'm an enh shammy recently returned from a long WoW sabbatical, and am just now starting to do some 2v2s with my disc priest friend. I have a couple noobish questions for you:

1) What elemental shield do you use in arenas? Does it depend on the team makeup?
Right now I start out with lightning on and after those charges are gone I'll pop water shield to conserve mana.

2) Are there any macros you consider integral to arena success? I already have a rank 1 ES on my focus macro, is there anything else I should be using?

3) Any other general tips to help me not suck?

Note: I know my gear sucks. I just started playing WoW again after nearly 9 months away, so I don't have very good gear atm. I'm working on grinding BG honor and other things to get some more resil and stam as I gain arena points. So please don't critique my gear, but any strategic/tactical advice offered will be much appreciated!

Both water and lightning shield are viable depending on your mana situation and your opponent. I would generally defer to Lightning Shield unless you find that your matches run you dry and you aren't able to get sufficient regen through Shamanistic rage because it gets dispelled or you are CC'd during that time. However, if your opponent is actively dispelling, water shield is probably more prudent because it is so much cheaper to reapply.

With regard to macros, the ES macro is certainly the highest priority. Personally, I would macro options for both rank 1 ES and max rank ES. A focus-related purge macro might also be useful, although in 2s it would probably be less beneficial than in 3s or 5s. In addition I would macro a shield and weapon swap so that you can turtle up if you get focused.

2.4 should provide a number of new gear options for you through Outland factions. The gear isn't great, but it will help you catch up in resilience if needed. I would also encourage you to try and acquire a fast mace or fist OH for use with flametongue in 2.4, since the MS effect will be hugely beneficial, especially in small brackets.

Lastly, in terms of general gameplay suggestions, there are some very useful comments earlier in this thread. One of particular note is that you should always be doing *something* as a enhancement shaman. Between stormstrikes, shocks, purges, and all of the various utility totems, you will get a lot of mileage out of constantly using your GCD. If you find that you are waiting for abilities and aren't casting spells in between, then there is probably on opportunity for another totem or purge.

If you had 100% to crit, you wouldn't need any +hit; every swing would be a crit and that would also mean that it hit.

You're saying that the resil is applied before the roll? So then if you had 100% crit and your opponent had -10% to crit through resil that 90% of your swings would be crits, the other 10% would be normal hits and subject to misses depending on how much +hit you have? The difference between when resil is applied matters. If it was applied after the roll, 100% chance to crit would mean 100% chance to hit also. Then the resil would change 10% of your crits to normal hits, but you still wouldn't have to worry about your +hit.

Unless I misunderstand what you are saying, this is false. Read up on the attack table and the "crit cap".
Resilience changes "critical strikes" to "hits". Therefore if your attack table versus a player with 0 resilience looked like this

20.0% Miss
50.0% Hit
30.0% Crit

Your attack table versus a resilience-capped player (493 resilience = 25% damage reduction from crits and 12.5% fewer crits) would look like this
20.0% Miss
62.5% Hit
17.5% Crit

Hopefully you can deduce the rest of how this works from here.

Hi there,
I was wondering if someone actually tried Brutal Earthstorm Diamond - Items - World of Warcraft in PvP? Mainly because of the 1% chance for 1 sec. stun.

Searched the thread but didn't find anything. Is it to bad to even mention it or did it just went out of sight?

For me it's not that interesting right now as I'm going to use the S3 helmet for PvE because there was no drop better than T4 until now...

On a sidenote, how to link items with that nice mouseover?

It is that bad. VERY low proc rate and the DPS boost from the RED blows it out of the water.

To answer your other question, you can use [item]item name here[/item}

(Change the last } to a bracket (]))

What's the current feeling for 2.4- Flametongue + Shield or Windfury + Shield when being focused? I would think Flametongue will create more pressure on the attacking team than windfury.