jlavarj

I wonder if the devs have looked at taking shocks off of a shared 6 second cooldown, keeping the 6 second cooldown but not shared between all 3 shocks. If they really want to help us in arena, being able to keep Flame Shock down on one target, snare another and still have an interrupt ready to go would be very nice.

 

Stoical

If they did that, they would have to drastically reduce the damage done by each to avoid our dps being OP. It would be great for PvP, but I woudn't expect it, and the ramifications for PvE would be pretty bad - you would be dropping a ton more mana and GCDs cycling through all 3 of your shocks, trying to do the same amount of damage as you did before with just one (assuming they balanced it to eliminate a dps upgrade).

 

Malan

Or just change Earthshock and Frostshock to be non-damage utility spells for an interrupt and a snare and pull them off the shared cooldown. Change flame shock to a 6 second DoT and up its damage. Now you have utility spells doing no damage (which should mean fewer resists if I recall the binary spell system correctly) and no loss of dps.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Rouncer

Well they could reduce the base damage of Earth Shock (bring it down to the same level as the initial damage of Flame Shock) and then have it so that the other shocks don't put Earth Shock on cooldown but Earth Shocking puts the others on cooldown.

Would help in PvP, since then you would be able to slow someone on the run and still would be able to interrupt their next cast, but it would have barely any effect at all in PvE.

How could it have no effect in PvE? Well by refreshing Flame Shock early you are losing a lot of DoT damage by overwriting the currently active DoT and adding Frost Shock into the rotation will get you killed very fast. If the base damage was lowered then you would be Flame Shocking then Earth Shocking every 6 seconds and the dps would be slightly elevated but it would also keep you under the thumb of the GCD so much as to make twisting basically impossible.

Would be an interesting addition if they did remove the ability to twist since then it would give you a lot more to do once that element is removed and would help out a lot in PvP, especially for enhancement since you would retain the ability to snare someone without losing the ability to interrupt as much.

Edited to respond to Malan:
Pretty sure both Frostshock and Earthshock area already Binary spells. Easy way to make sure is to look through a combat log and see if there are any partial resists of either of the spells? If no then they are binary. If yes then they aren't and then they are specific exceptions to the Binary Spell mechanic. If they are already binary (and they should be) changing them wouldn't affect the resist rate at all.

The other issue is that if you changed them like that then you lose the Synergy with Stormstrike (yes on a raid you want any other Nature caster to eat your charges but when solo or in a small group or when PvPing they help) and you would also lose the ability to kite/tank things since without the damage component it would be very strange for the spell to have a large aggro component to it as well (unless they changed the additional aggro into a taunt).

 

Malan

Yes frost/earth shock are binary spells, I wasn't asking if they were.

The synergy on stormstrike is arbitrary anyways. It could just as easily be changed to any number of things.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Rouncer

If they are binary spells then there is no advantage to removing their damage in regards to resist rate.

There are always 2 checks for spells. First is whether it hit at all and that is based on level differences and affected by +spell hit. Then the second check is based on the targets resistances to that school of magic, this is affected by spell penetration and also affected by an abundance of +spell hit if the caster has enough to get above 100% hit rate (this only applies to Binary Spells and Spells without a damage component).

Binary Spells and Pure Utility Spells (eg. without any Damage component) have exactly the same resist rate so changing Frost Shock and Earth Shock to pure utility spells without a damage component would have no effect whatsoever on their resist rate.

Making that change would be a significant loss of dps though since without being able to use Earth Shock for additional damage between the Flame Shocks you would end up just refreshing Flame Shock early for a lot less overall dps.

 

jlavarj

I don't think you'd need to reduce the damage on any of the shocks. The only burst comes from hitting earthshock followed immediatly by a frost shock which then leaves you open with no snare or interrupt ability for 4-6 seconds and puts you out of mana fast if you do it every time both are on cooldown. Seems like you could slip an extra earthshock into your shock rotation with no shared cooldowns, but if you are totem twisting that's a GCD you don't have to spend.

 

Malan

I don't know that I'd call it significant. Spamming Earth Shock is actually less dps than spamming Flame Shock. Flame Shock with only 6 seconds of DoT, with 750 spell damage, is 181 DPS. Earth Shock on a target with the SS debuff and 750 spell damage is 198 DPS. That's only 18 DPS. Obviously in a PvE environment Flame Shock out performs Earth Shock because of the number of debuffs that affect it.

[e] Actually when you consider that the full resist rate of Earth Shock is going to have a much higher impact than the partial resists on Flame Shock, Flame Shock should outperform in PvP as well.

Anyways, like I said the better solution would be to decouple the shocks, remove the damage from Frost and Earth, and boost the damage on Flame Shock while changing it to a 6 sec DoT to compensate.

[e] Another way this would help is that you would have an interrupt available every 6 seconds as well as being able to keep a dispellable DoT on a target every 6 seconds, forcing either a heal or a GCD dispel, thus causing the other team's healer/dispeller to get involved.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

jlavarj

I'm going to post this in the wasteland that is the blizzard shaman class forum, because I think it is an idea that has at least as much merit as a mortal strike effect on flametounge weapon/totem. I really am not a fan of the posts detailing new talents or extended talent trees but this is really just a tweak to mechanics and I want to make a good case for it.

Enhance shaman have a ranged snare and a ranged interrupt. The problem is that both of these are on the same 6 second (5 with talents) cooldown. Warriors have a snare and an interrupt but both only share a 1.5 sec GCD. Throwing down a snare does not preclude also interrupting within the next 6 seconds. Same for rogues, being their snare is a proc on their weapon, it does not affect their ability to interrupt beyond the GCD. I would suggest that if buffs are being looked at for Shaman in the PVP arena, removing shocks from a shared timer would be a good place to look. Allowing shaman the same freedom to interrupt and snare as other classes would offset the kiting we are subjected to and give more oportunity to interrupt CC and mana burns.

The question then is, will this give shaman overpowered burst through a cycle of flameshock, earthshock, frostshock. In PvP, yes it does provide burst, but it will also deplete mana very rapidly while dealing damage not really on par with other burst abilities (shatter combo, adrenaline rush, power infusion, death wish) while leaving the shaman open to the abilities an interupt and snare are meant to counter in the first place.

In PVE, frost shock is not used anyway because of the increased threat, and this modifier could be increased even more to discourage frost shocking in instances and raids. This leaves room for one more earth shock and flame shock every cycle. However, totem twising really doesn't leave room for any more GCD operations in a 10 second window once stormstrike, two totems, and 2 shocks have been laid down so the raiding enhancement shaman will have to sacrafice totem twisting in order to take advantage of the extra shocks.

I'm not qualified to judge the result of this impact on resto and elemental shaman as far as burst damage goes, but I suspect a elemental shaman would see more damage out of a lightning bolt cast than a back to back frost shock, flameshock.

I think removing the shared cooldown on the three shock types would go further towards providing utility to all 3 shaman specs in arena than a mortal strike effect and is more in keeping with the lore of the shaman class.

--Edited for reapplying flameshock every 6 seconds.

 

Malan

As I have stated, this is incorrect. Spamming Flame Shock every 6 seconds is much higher sustained DPS than it is to allow the DoT to fully tick to 12 seconds.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

jlavarj

noted

 

goddi23a

missclicked
delete it plz

 

Rouncer

I didn't realize that it would only be a 18 dps loss although I am a bit confused how that works out considering that just looking at the base damage values of Earth Shock and the Initial hit of Flame Shock there is a 298 damage difference between the 2 values not even including the added damage if you can use your own Stormstrike debuff. That said if the difference really is that little then your concept certainly has a lot of merit.

Sure in PvP the resist rates would favor using more Flame Shock in PvE this would definitely be a nerf.

The full resist rate of Earth Shock versus the Partial resists on Flame Shock, take a look into some of the Mage threads about the resist rates of binary versus non-binary spells. What they found is that on a level 73 boss 5.1% of your damage is lost on non-binary spells and the increased resist rate of binary spells should lead to the same 5% dps loss. However for some reason that increase in resist rate doesn't appear to be occurring with the binary spells and their resist rates are corresponding to exactly the hit rate as postulated due to the difference in level based resists.

I'm not referencing the phantom hit associated with Elemental Precision but with the 5% damage loss that should occur due to the unmitigatable resistances a boss has due to being level 73. The partial resists give the proper dps loss to non-binary spells as calculated but binary spells seem unaffected by those specific unmitigatable resistances. It doesn't fit with what is expected of binary spells and how they should interact with a level 73 mob but it has been proven to be the way they work.

 

ORPVP

The ability for an enhancement shaman to survive (physcial Shaman Rage)

The Improvement to his mobility (toughness 50% movement free up from anything that slows your movement)

you have the extra time needed now to kill your target.

The improvement is sound and the results will be not be sutle.

Hunters will die faster now and druids will not get away.

 

thevidon

If you get close enough to a hunter for long enough to kill them....then that is a terrible hunter. Druids are less likely to get away thanks to their set bonus nerf, not because of the changes to shaman. We now have 15 seconds of protection versus druid/warrior and druid/rogue combos instead of 30. Awesome.

I am still waiting for what they are giving us instead of FT. If it is nothing then my solution will be to just make my shaman my PVE char because he will never be viable in arena.

 

woeye

And roll a rogue like everyone does ;-) Yesterday in WSG 60-69 we had 12 rogues total. Ah what fun :-)

 

thevidon

Fortunately for me I have a priest sitting at 60 (61 after today). My rogue is 42....but I see major nerfs coming for them in arenas (cheat death anyone?).

 

Imperator

Why would they nerf rogues? 95% of the WOW population plays either a rogue, lock, or a resto druid. Thus, no nerfs for those classes.

PVP in WOW is silly in the extreme and it makes me think a bunch of monkeys could come up with better balance if you gave them the time and the computers.

Rogues just prove the pure insanity that is Arena PVP.

Stealth to target. . .gouge or backstab/KS/5 stacks Crippling Poison (which you have to clear off 1 by 1)/CS/Mace stun/blind/vanish/prep/rinse/repeat

You're lucky if you get to actually control your character at all against a good rogue. Team him with a freaking lock? GG. Same with a Priest or a Resto Druid if they're halfway decent.

Do like I'm doing. Play your 10 games on your Enhancement Shaman. Wallow in your mediocrity. Then go level a Warrior or something else that you REALLY wanna use for Arena. Wait until AOC or Warhammer 40k or an MMO with decent PVP comes out.

 

Rykimaru

I for one absolutely hate Shadowstep specs and couldn't care less if they nerf it.

Yeah Shamans are kind of boned against rogues, especially enhancement shamans. But try playing a rogue against a mace spec warrior. Getting RNG'ed game after game gets old really quick. But, if a rogue blows all his cooldowns on killing you, what exactly are ur teammate(s) doing ?

As an enhancement shaman your best bet would be to team get a melee zerg team going; get a warrior or a ret pally; with heroism its pretty stupid how much damage your team will be putting out.

 

thevidon

I actually played with a ret pally the other day and we did terribly. I mean truly horrible. Basically every team would just CC me and kite him and we were never able to get damage in on anyone. Conversely, I did amazingly well in 2's when I was paired with a rogue.

The rogue would just lock someone in place and I could pound on them.

 

kniff

I play an enhancement shaman as an alt, and i never thought i'd ever be close to either s3 weapons nor the shoulders. Mostly playing on my warrior until one day when some guildies suggested we'd start a 5's with the new cleave-setup.

So, we got together and started playing last week and im currently at ~1850 personal rating after about ~30 games. We're 24-6 or something in games and at 1960 rating (team had ok-ish rating when we started). Getting mainhand on tuesday and offhand next week - i feel that 2k personal rating won't be a problem either.

Setup is the same as Serennia is using and is featured in one of his/her's (?) newest movies on Warcraftmovies.com

Holy pala
Holy/disc priest
Hemo Rogue
Ms warrior
Enhancement shaman.

We usually put our rogue on one of their casters since this setup is made to counter the most common ones, it's usually an elemental shaman, but we tend to switch or at least try to switch targets alot because of the incredible burst we can deliver upfront. The biggest problem now is my survivability, being hit by warriors in full vengeful + other dps hurts alot, but that can be fixed to a certain extent with better gear.

Really fun setup and we'll probably be seeing it alot more in the future i bet!

 

Gravytrader

Hello Shamans. I've been lurking these forums for quite some time, but this is the first time I've posted. Let me first get it out of the way that I'm really new to Arena as a whole. I'm getting close to hitting 70 on my Draenei Shaman, and I'd like to start seriously thinking about Arena.

I'd like to get back to talking about talent builds and 2v2 or 3v3 Arena makeups that work well for Enhance. I understand in the Live patch that Enhance is probably at it's best in a proper 5v5 lineup. That being said, not everyone has a group of friends that all rolled the perfect class combination for running a 5v5. Not only that, but my preference is 3v3. I'm still learning Arena basics, and the smaller scale combat is much better for me right now. I don't know how long some of you have been doing Arena, but right now it's like the matches go by so fast. So much is going on, and often times, I forget to do very obvious things. I need more experience so that the game will slow down for me.

Anyhow, I've been playing on the TTR(Tournament Test Realm) for a couple days now. I know it's probably not the best practice in the world, but I thought I'd try out a few different talent specs, and try to get an initial feel of what Arena is like as Enhancement. After trying a couple of different talent specs, I came up with the following:

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Shaman -> Talent Calculator

Originally, I tried to do something along the lines of what Push was using. I picked up Healing Focus, but I found it to be pretty trivial. Does anyone else feel this way? As Elemental or Restoration, I've found it to be amazing. However, as Enhancement, the only time my healing wasn't worthless was when I was not taking damage. I found out quickly that in most situations healing just prolonged my inevitable death, as it was not effective enough to truly turn the tide of a battle. Whenever I ended up getting the heal off, I'd need to heal again, thus leaving no room to deal damage.

Anyway, I spec'd into Toughness, and gave up Healing Focus. This also allowed me to put 1 more point in Unleashed Rage. I've found that Toughness in 2.4 is pretty nice, and combined with Improved Ghost Wolf, you can actually break away from Warriors without blowing your Insignia Trinket.

Has anyone else done any testing with the new Toughness? If so, have you found similar results? Also, does anyone have any suggestions for the Talent Spec I posted? Finally, have any of you run 2v2's with a Hunter with any success? My brother is going to play one, and I figured that it may help to deal with Rogues that just lock me down the entire fight. (Freezing Trap, Concussive Shot?) Any other thoughts of what might work for 2's or 3's with the changes to Ghost Wolf and Toughness?

Anyways, thanks for reading. I'm sorry this was so long, but I've been reading this thread over the past day or so, and I'd like to see this discussion continued. Enhancement certainly isn't easy, but it's definitely a lot of fun. I'd like any information I can get on how to improve my play in the Arena environment.

 

Nadagast

Cleave setups are really gay and helping to ruin 5s, grats

 

Hulkling

So basically you're saying you built your team around casters, and met a team designed to take you out... You're not gonna find heaps of sympathy for warlocks in a discussion about shaman pvp...

 

Illundai

If you're a Draenei, I'd personally ditch one point in Nature's Guidance and get 5/5 Unleashed Rage. We get 1% from our Aura anyway.