[Shaman] PvP + Enhancement = ? - Page 22

panny · 03/17/08, 2:04 AM

Originally Posted by kniff

I play an enhancement shaman as an alt, and i never thought i'd ever be close to either s3 weapons nor the shoulders. Mostly playing on my warrior until one day when some guildies suggested we'd start a 5's with the new cleave-setup.

So, we got together and started playing last week and im currently at ~1850 personal rating after about ~30 games. We're 24-6 or something in games and at 1960 rating (team had ok-ish rating when we started). Getting mainhand on tuesday and offhand next week - i feel that 2k personal rating won't be a problem either.

Setup is the same as Serennia is using and is featured in one of his/her's (?) newest movies on Warcraftmovies.com

Holy pala
Holy/disc priest
Hemo Rogue
Ms warrior
Enhancement shaman.

We usually put our rogue on one of their casters since this setup is made to counter the most common ones, it's usually an elemental shaman, but we tend to switch or at least try to switch targets alot because of the incredible burst we can deliver upfront. The biggest problem now is my survivability, being hit by warriors in full vengeful + other dps hurts alot, but that can be fixed to a certain extent with better gear.

Really fun setup and we'll probably be seeing it alot more in the future i bet!

I was running a similar setup (before Serennia, the thunder-stealing jerk), but instead with: Enhance/Ret/Ms/Disc/Resto Druid, essentially trading some control for more burst and mana burn. We did okay (~1850-1900), but it's been hard getting everyone on to play for long.

I'd be interested to know how well your Rogue does without glaives.

thevidon · 03/17/08, 2:53 AM

Originally Posted by panny

I was running a similar setup (before Serennia, the thunder-stealing jerk), but instead with: Enhance/Ret/Ms/Disc/Resto Druid, essentially trading some control for more burst and mana burn. We did okay (~1850-1900), but it's been hard getting everyone on to play for long.

I'd be interested to know how well your Rogue does without glaives.

The only problem I have found with going with a ret pally over a rogue is that ret pallies are pretty much just as bad as we are at keeping someone in place. With a warrior and a rogue as the other 2 dps you can switch off between either of their targets and dps because both targets will be virtually immobile.

As far as the druid over the pally....I dont know how I feel about that change. Cyclone is nice, but it opens up that healer slot to being focused (especially with the changes to druid set bonus in 2.4).

faight · 03/17/08, 3:00 AM

Originally Posted by Illundai

If you're a Draenei, I'd personally ditch one point in Nature's Guidance and get 5/5 Unleashed Rage. We get 1% from our Aura anyway.

I thought the aura didn't affect you, only every one else in the party? I could be mistaken but I thought I didn't see the buff on myself when I was playing around with my draenei. Obviously I don't play one, I prefer Horde, but if the buff affects yourself that would be really cool.

panny · 03/17/08, 3:11 AM

Originally Posted by thevidon

The only problem I have found with going with a ret pally over a rogue is that ret pallies are pretty much just as bad as we are at keeping someone in place. With a warrior and a rogue as the other 2 dps you can switch off between either of their targets and dps because both targets will be virtually immobile.

As far as the druid over the pally....I dont know how I feel about that change. Cyclone is nice, but it opens up that healer slot to being focused (especially with the changes to druid set bonus in 2.4).

It depends. Warlocks/Priests/Paladins/Shamans have no real escapes, Druids get HoJ/Intecept + JoJ, Mages or Hunters can be hard, we usually have either me or the Pally with BoF on them. So, alot of the time, our targets are moving around, but they're still being hit.

Taking a Druid gives us some much needed CC (usually on Warrior/Healer) and an additional Poison counter. The cyclone/speed bonus is definitely going to make them less good though.

kniff · 03/17/08, 8:21 AM

Originally Posted by panny

I was running a similar setup (before Serennia, the thunder-stealing jerk), but instead with: Enhance/Ret/Ms/Disc/Resto Druid, essentially trading some control for more burst and mana burn. We did okay (~1850-1900), but it's been hard getting everyone on to play for long.

I'd be interested to know how well your Rogue does without glaives.

From what i've seen so far he's been doing great, locking down mages or eleshammys without a problem which is his main priority, forcing ib's by himself which helps alot. I either stick on our warior's target, or of im getting kited i basically try to survive while trying to kill anything that comes close basically.

What we've had most problems against so far is druid/hunter/warr/priest/pala, or mage/druid/hunter teams.

We have another rogue in the team with one of the glaives - would it be viable to switch him just for that? Our current rogue is a very good player.

callidas · 03/17/08, 8:23 AM

Originally Posted by faight

I thought the aura didn't affect you, only every one else in the party? I could be mistaken but I thought I didn't see the buff on myself when I was playing around with my draenei. Obviously I don't play one, I prefer Horde, but if the buff affects yourself that would be really cool.

It is a passive buff, so you don't get the icon but you do get the 1% (its in the spell book if you look for it). It shows up on everyone else as a buff as they only get it when they are around you, you have it the whole time.

ON TOPIC: I know its been mentioned before, but it really bears repeating: Don't go into an arena without a shield and a swap macro/short-cut. I tent to start with my shield out in case I get jumped by a rogue, and the extra 5.2k armour and 30-40 res makes a massive difference while you wait out the CS/KS. When actually going toe-toe with warriors/hunters/rogues I keep it out the whole time.

The increased survivability is just insane, and since all the WF procs are main hand (doing twice the damage of the OH ones) you actually loose surprisingly little dps.

panny · 03/17/08, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by kniff

From what i've seen so far he's been doing great, locking down mages or eleshammys without a problem which is his main priority, forcing ib's by himself which helps alot. I either stick on our warior's target, or of im getting kited i basically try to survive while trying to kill anything that comes close basically.

What we've had most problems against so far is druid/hunter/warr/priest/pala, or mage/druid/hunter teams.

We have another rogue in the team with one of the glaives - would it be viable to switch him just for that? Our current rogue is a very good player.

I won't claim to be any kind of authority, but it won't hurt to try him out (barring hurt feelings). Having PvE gear on such a difficult to pin down class it's pretty nice.

thevidon · 03/17/08, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by panny

I won't claim to be any kind of authority, but it won't hurt to try him out (barring hurt feelings). Having PvE gear on such a difficult to pin down class it's pretty nice.

I will almost always have my rogue use their max DPS gear....usually they will be running with like 100 resilience. Anytime im in an arena, I WILL be focused - so that frees them up to wear as little resilience as needed for maximum damage output.

Illundai · 03/17/08, 12:27 PM

Just to clear up the confusion: Inspiring Presence - Spells - World of Warcraft

Increases chance to hit with spells by 1% for you and all party members within 30 yards.

Angeron · 03/17/08, 12:39 PM

Are those shamans running the Melee Gib setup in 5s finding they need to get resil-capped to be successful, or is the combination of rogue lockdown and warlock pain-train making it trivial to keep you healed even running partial pve gear(think 350 resil)? I'm looking to pickup a baller shaman for my melee gib team, and we've got an amazingly well geared pve shaman, but he doesn't have anything like a full resilience set. I'm wondering how much this will affect us, any help from you lads and lasses would be the tits.

Malan · 03/17/08, 12:46 PM

I only have 200 resilience (S1 shoulders, S2 weapon, S3 helm, 2 trinkets) and my scrub 5v5 team (initially just a "lets get points" team) is actually faring well. We came close to making it out of 1600 this week (laughable I know) before a couple of bad losses. Granted we're not up against the 2000 bracket, but even with low resilience I'm doing pretty well as far as survivability goes.

Herrera · 03/17/08, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Angeron

Are those shamans running the Melee Gib setup in 5s finding they need to get resil-capped to be successful, or is the combination of rogue lockdown and warlock pain-train making it trivial to keep you healed even running partial pve gear(think 350 resil)? I'm looking to pickup a baller shaman for my melee gib team, and we've got an amazingly well geared pve shaman, but he doesn't have anything like a full resilience set. I'm wondering how much this will affect us, any help from you lads and lasses would be the tits.

With Shamanistic Rage still being dispelable, Enhancements still seem to be the most attractive target in 5s. If you're res capped and put on a shield, you could take some good beating, but it's hard to dps unless your target is close. So I'd say yes, it's very important for Enh to have high resilience. This will definitely change in 2.4, since shield+30% damage reduced for 15sec is a wall the enemy doesn't want to waste dps on.

jlavarj · 03/17/08, 12:53 PM

As a testament to shield swapping macros... My resto shaman 2v2 partner and I drew a ret pally/resto druid team in the upper 1600s. The ret pally went on my healer and I stuck to the druid. The ret pally killed my healer before I killed his, but went out of mana in the process. I managed to kill the druid and was sitting at 50% health with the pally at 100% health and still had his bubble and hammer of justice off of cooldown. I put on a shield and managed to kill him. If I didn't have the shield on against him, I surely would have died.

GamingManiac · 03/17/08, 12:54 PM

200 resilience is more than enough to take you to 1850 no question. Running with 266 these last two weeks (just started the cleave team), we went up to 2000 in something like 30-35 games. We're hovering around there now because my resilience is starting to become an issue. Ran into so many 4 magic dp teams that just light me up immediately.

I have to note that the rest of my team is extremely geared, already having 1850/2000 personal ratings on different teams, so your mileage may vary depending on teammates, but 1850 is more than doable with a half pve/half pvp kit like I wear atm.

Illundai · 03/17/08, 12:54 PM

We're planning on going meleegib the next week too, using the standard setup (our rogue unfortunatly only has the offhand glaive, damn you RNG) and I'm planning to only use 420+ Resilience. I may drop a little and get more Stamina and DPS gems whilst ditching the Resilience gems, but I'm uncertain. Even with 400 Resilience and a Shield up, I drop like a clothie if the paintrain is big enough.

Tutanka · 03/17/08, 1:27 PM

Originally Posted by panny

I was running a similar setup (before Serennia, the thunder-stealing jerk), but instead with: Enhance/Ret/Ms/Disc/Resto Druid, essentially trading some control for more burst and mana burn. We did okay (~1850-1900), but it's been hard getting everyone on to play for long.

I'd be interested to know how well your Rogue does without glaives.

You need the Rogue and you dont need one with Warglaves.

The reason Serenias team works is because the roge can split off and really lock down one caster, a Ret Pally can not do that, and therefore all 3 DPS have to jump one the same target and hope they can drop it before the other team kills somone.

3 meele works well because they can do very good sustaind damage and really shut down another teams damage.

Maligne · 03/17/08, 1:47 PM

Originally Posted by Tutanka

You need the Rogue and you dont need one with Warglaves.

The reason Serenias team works is because the roge can split off and really lock down one caster, a Ret Pally can not do that, and therefore all 3 DPS have to jump one the same target and hope they can drop it before the other team kills somone.

3 meele works well because they can do very good sustaind damage and really shut down another teams damage.

Can anyone who has experience with this team fill me in on what the shaman is mainly doing? It's easy to tell from the video that the rogue is on either a frost mage or elemental shaman, and the warrior tunnels the warlock, but what the shaman does is a little unclear.

thevidon · 03/17/08, 2:17 PM

Originally Posted by Maligne

Can anyone who has experience with this team fill me in on what the shaman is mainly doing? It's easy to tell from the video that the rogue is on either a frost mage or elemental shaman, and the warrior tunnels the warlock, but what the shaman does is a little unclear.

It appeared from all the games that the other teams warrior was constantly on the shaman, so he pretty much spent his time hamstringed and getting stunned while trying to get to the warriors target to help DPS. It appears the shaman mainly just focus shocks and helps DPS the same target as the warrior when he can get close enough.

Malan · 03/17/08, 2:22 PM

We experienced that first hand last night actually. Last week I was pretty mobile and was just tearing stuff up, last night we faced a lot of teams with a Rogue/Warrior and I was just permanently Mace Stun/Poisoned/ImpHamstrung in one spot and really couldn't do much.

Illundai · 03/17/08, 2:37 PM

Originally Posted by Maligne

Can anyone who has experience with this team fill me in on what the shaman is mainly doing? It's easy to tell from the video that the rogue is on either a frost mage or elemental shaman, and the warrior tunnels the warlock, but what the shaman does is a little unclear.

What video is this? Serennia's huge sized file? Not quite sure if I can be bothered to take the time to download 1 gigabyte. From the videos I've seen of this setup the basic idea is:

Rogue: Either lock down the Frost Mage or Elemental Shaman, or lock down one of the healers.
Warrior: pound on whatever clothie he can find, usually the warlock if they have one. Otherwise the second squishiest target.
Shaman: Survive the inital burst, paired with Shamanistic Rage and Pain Suppression. If not stunned, help out with Earth Shocking the DPS on you, or possibly the healing. Ground as much nukes as you can.

Tutanka · 03/17/08, 3:42 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

We experienced that first hand last night actually. Last week I was pretty mobile and was just tearing stuff up, last night we faced a lot of teams with a Rogue/Warrior and I was just permanently Mace Stun/Poisoned/ImpHamstrung in one spot and really couldn't do much.

People seem to think this is some sort of weak point for the enhancement shaman, but very few classes can do much with a warrior and rogue on them. The Truth is Enhancement Shaman are actually a prety good tank since they have high armour (with a shield) and they can still, purge, earth shock, buff etc, while being focus fired.

BTW it looks like there is a second Team doing really well on BG9 but it seems like they are running a hunter in place of the rogue.

The World of Warcraft Armory

Angeron · 03/17/08, 4:40 PM

Originally Posted by Tutanka

People seem to think this is some sort of weak point for the enhancement shaman, but very few classes can do much with a warrior and rogue on them. The Truth is Enhancement Shaman are actually a prety good tank since they have high armour (with a shield) and they can still, purge, earth shock, buff etc, while being focus fired.

BTW it looks like there is a second Team doing really well on BG9 but it seems like they are running a hunter in place of the rogue.

The World of Warcraft Armory

Hunter serves the same purpose as the rogue (shuts down mages) without being kitable, added drain, slightly less burst.

Thanks for the tips on resil guys, much appreciated.

Illundai · 03/17/08, 5:22 PM

As we're going to give this cleave setup a go later on this week, I was looking at my gear. In particular, my shield. Illidan/Kaz'rogal refuse to drop their shield, so I'm stuck at the moment with a [Bastion of Light] (/shrug) with a 12 stamina gem in it.
Now, I was wondering whether it'd be worth it to get the S1 Shield? [Gladiator's Shield Wall].

It's basicly: -700 armor, +29 Resilience, +5 Stamina. I'm uncertain if the extra resilience or stamina outweigh the pretty big loss of Armor? I'm leaning towards a no, but hey. I'm looking at ~400 resilience give or take, I'll be regemming a little.

panny · 03/17/08, 9:40 PM

As you can see by see from the video, the Shaman's primary job is the purge the target clean of buffs. One would hope you'd have the presence of mind to lay a few Groundings and focus shock a a few spells too.

That shield should be fine, I like armour better than resil. (Get the resil enchant though).

Originally Posted by Tutanka

You need the Rogue and you dont need one with Warglaves.

The reason Serenias team works is because the roge can split off and really lock down one caster, a Ret Pally can not do that, and therefore all 3 DPS have to jump one the same target and hope they can drop it before the other team kills somone.

3 meele works well because they can do very good sustaind damage and really shut down another teams damage.

People need to stop stating certainties, especially if they don't have first hand experience. Ret has disadvanatges to a Rogue, but it also has advantages too (mainly against Druids).

Malan · 03/18/08, 12:46 AM

Hmm, do any of you use a mouseover macro on a gladiator frame to purge people?