[Shaman] PvP + Enhancement = ? - Page 4

◊ Praetorian · 01/02/08, 4:34 PM

Originally Posted by Nadagast

I'm talking about 5v5 not 3v3. (notice the post I replied to was talking about a 5v5 setup? TAKE YOUR TROLLING ELSEWHERE! sigh) And I didn't say anything at all like "warlocks are highly skilled at pressing buttons, while the shaman do nothing but try and autoattack people to death," but ok. I wasn't even commenting on enhancement shaman in particular, just that, 2100 with that cleave setup isn't as impressive as the guy thought. I guess that makes me a troll though my bad.

No one here is trying to be "impressive." People want viable team combinations that will get them a high rating and beat other team combinations if played correctly. A team that's top 10 on a fairly competitive battlegroup with an enhancement shaman does indicate that the composition is viable, and that's what counts. All you're saying by pointing out that a "cleave" team can get 2100 despite being "bad," is that maybe if they played even better and did use all the tools, they could go even higher. So maybe it's a good team makeup?

Nadagast · 01/02/08, 4:38 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

But they do have CC. Enhancement shamans don't. Warriors don't, really. But rogues and hunters certainly do, even if it's not quite as straightforward as poly or running up to a healer and hitting Psychic Scream on cooldown.

I understand the basic point about coordination -- yeah, on a 5v5 level, when you need to coordinate a mix of CCs, silences, and interrupts in order to create a window of opportunity for a kill, that's more complex than a brute-force approach where you just beat on a target until the other healers run out of mana and then your target dies. Maybe it's "harder."

But I've never really bought into all the bullshit people throw around about team setups requiring or not requiring any skill to play. Basically every workable team anyone has ever thought of has been derided at some point as being devoid of skill and a "scrub express" of some sort. The name 2345 reflects a joke about how you mash those buttons to gib your target with an elem sham burst. 4 DPS? Yeah, scrub setup. Drain team? Wow, no skill. Healer-heavy? Boring, no skill. And so on. Everyone always says that every composition but their own is lame and takes no skill.

It's dumb. If it works, play it. If it works but isn't fun for you, don't play it. Etc.

But that's kind of far afield in an enhancement shaman discussion, isn't it? I'm sure enhancement shamans would love to have some CC and more mobility to give them more options in any given scenario and thus enable more "skilled" play, but they don't exactly have a choice.

There definitely are some setups that require more skill and some that require less skill, I think it's a fine thing to analyze... The different setups need to be balanced on a skill required vs power basis, one setup shouldn't be really powerful but easy to play. You can disagree with which setups are easy but I think it's hard to disagree that they take varying amounts of skill. I don't have all that much experience playing as 2346 but from what I do have I'd say it's one of the more difficult setups (and fun and rewarding) to play.

Also just because enhancement shamans don't have CC doesn't mean they have to play on a cleave team... I've seen a team run Enh/Lock/Mage/Pal/Pri and that seems like a pretty decent setup to me, and I would call that a skilled setup, certainly far more than some 3 physical setup.

Azaranth · 01/02/08, 4:40 PM

Originally Posted by Nadagast

I wasn't even commenting on enhancement shaman in particular.

I guess that makes me a troll though, my bad.

Correct.

Nadagast · 01/02/08, 4:41 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

No one here is trying to be "impressive." People want viable team combinations that will get them a high rating and beat other team combinations if played correctly. A team that's top 10 on a fairly competitive battlegroup with an enhancement shaman does indicate that the composition is viable, and that's what counts. All you're saying by pointing out that a "cleave" team can get 2100 despite being "bad," is that maybe if they played even better and did use all the tools, they could go even higher. So maybe it's a good team makeup?

The 5v5 bracket on Stormstrike is pretty much dead... I would really doubt they'd be top20 ranked if we had more teams playing and if people played more and dodged less. But maybe they would, who knows.

Azaranth, you don't know the definition of troll? If people don't want to read my post I don't see what the huge harm is, just skip them. Sorry for hogging so much of the precious space in this thread. Why do people get so worked up about a few possibly slightly off topic posts?

◊ Praetorian · 01/02/08, 4:52 PM

Originally Posted by Nadagast

Azaranth, you don't know the definition of troll? If people don't want to read my post I don't see what the huge harm is, just skip them. Sorry for hogging so much of the precious space in this thread. Why do people get so worked up about a few possibly slightly off topic posts?

Because it's a thread where enhancement shamans who want to PvP as enhancement (very small group to begin with) are discussing gear choices and possible team compositions that might be viable or successful. Beef mentions, "Hey, check out these guys, they're 2100+ with an enhance shaman, that comp is pretty good." And now the last page of the thread has been a discussion of whether melee-heavy teams take skill to play. As I said above, no one (in this thread) really cares what you or others think takes skill to play. Hence the derail, and hence it pretty much being trolling. Your underlying point is that casters take more skill than melee to play, and by replacing melee classes with a warlock and a mage, you increase the "skill" level of the team. That's: a) subjective; b) inflammatory; and c) entirely off-topic.

Nadagast · 01/02/08, 4:58 PM

You can ask pretty much any high rated player who isn't retarded and they will agree with me, but whatever. I don't think it was off-topic, (I was just trying to say I don't think you should put as much stock in that team rating/setup as it seemed he was, I guess I should have suggested other setups earlier) have fun with the thread.

Azaranth · 01/02/08, 5:05 PM

Hopefully, this is the last post on the matter. What you say makes no sense. You're arguing that the particular setup in question is easy to play - but that doesn't matter. No one (But you apparently) cares. We're interested in viable teams that include Enhancement shaman. This one is apparently viable. What matters is that they win - not how easy it is to play the classes involved. There's no reason to discount this particular teams success.

◊ Lord BEEF · 01/02/08, 5:30 PM

Originally Posted by Nadagast

You can ask pretty much any high rated player who isn't retarded and they will agree with me, but whatever. I don't think it was off-topic, (I was just trying to say I don't think you should put as much stock in that team rating/setup as it seemed he was, I guess I should have suggested other setups earlier) have fun with the thread.

Even I conceded that they probably got a decent amount of wins due to the fact that they're a fairly unique composition and people haven't figured out how to counter them, which is why we beat them when we played them the second time (we lost on the 3rd time due to player error on our part).

But again, this is about viability, not skill requirement. Shamans that want to hit things and want s3 shoulders can take heart that there are a few ways to do it

Push · 01/02/08, 5:30 PM

No offense, but I'm shocked at what this thread turned into...jeez haha. I hope you guys realize that any top 10 5v5 team requires skill, regardless of how easy or OP you think the combo is.

Back on topic:

How do you guys deal with all of your GCD's at the start of a match? I have 8 that I try to use before bursting, 3-4 totems, BL, SR, Berserking, Stormstrike, Shock...It's a lot to get done if your trying to kill someone fast.

That's one of things I have to struggle with the most. The name of the game is how you set up before engaging--inching your totems closer, getting sneaky Purges ahead of time, and popping Bloodlust or SR as early as feasibly possible.

The more GCDs you efficiently get out of the way, the more damage you can deliver with your important totems and skills out of the way. That's why the key to success as Enhancement is GCD abuse.

Also what about improved ghost wolf, I haven't used ghost wolf at all, is that a key talent?

In Arenas, 90% of its usage is being able to set up totems and still get back into Ghost Wolf so I don't get hit by a Sap.

It's also nice for catching mounted targets: Frost Shock, immediately Ghost Wolf, run at them for 6.5 seconds, Frost Shock, repeat and before you know it you'll catch up to melee range very quickly as long as you do things swiftly.

3) Anytime I get rooted, especially against frost mages, I'll shock, toss a chain lit and then go ghost wolf, and as soon as the root breaks I can close very quickly with the target.

This is probably one of the only ways I'll end up using Ghost Wolf in combat. Especially now that nearly every action now breaks Ghost Wolf automatically without having to deactivate it or macro /cancelform, Ghost Wolf has its place for sure.

[e] Something else I'm curious about - I've never been a big user of macros on my shaman. What macros do you guys find useful as they pertain to enhancement shaman? Do you /rw announce your SR? Targeting macros, etc etc?

I use a mod called ShamanFriend, which keeps track of things I Ground, Earth Shock, and Purge. I choose the mod to announce the Grounded and Interrupted things in /rw, which helps my Arena mates.

Other than my Itemrack equipment switch macros, I don't use any macros. I switch targets between my focus and target for Earth Shocks and stuff manually with keybinds.

I like the Darkmoon Card: Wrath. It's pretty worthless in PvE but for PvP it seems to really help overcome resillience. Crit's being so key for enhance dps with flurry, UR, focus it's hard to argue against as a solid trinket.

With regard to the trinket issue, I find an on-demand AP trinket is far superior to every option, due to the nature of Enhancement Shaman's duration of melee contact. Using an on-demand trinket helps you take advantage of when you know you'll be in melee range for 20 seconds, and you can combine it with Bloodlust for some massive damage. With SR, the extra mana recovery is also well welcome. The AP from my Berserker's Call doubles as 90 spell damage, which further increases damage.

enhancement just can't compete with elemental because both specs serve the same purpose and ele proved more benefits while doing the same thing.

Though I'll concede that Enhancement is more gear, class combo, and skill dependent, it has as much potential viability as Restoration and Elemental. It's naive to think otherwise, as all three Shaman specs clearly have different advantages and uses in Arena.

Bagginses · 01/02/08, 5:55 PM

Originally Posted by Push

Though I'll concede that Enhancement is more gear, class combo, and skill dependent, it has as much potential viability as Restoration and Elemental. It's naive to think otherwise, as all three Shaman specs clearly have different advantages and uses in Arena.

That brings me back to the question I brought up before the thread got derailed. In a 2v2 environment where Elemental and Enhancement are both at a disadvantage, my Frost Mage partner and I are having difficulty against Rogue and Healer/SL Warlock teams. My dilemma is I am wondering if going Enhancement would complement the features of a Frost Mage better than Elemental? I'm not concerned with which spec is "better," because a lot of the quality of a class or spec in arena, especially 2v2, is how you match it up.

Would it be easier to kite Rogues? Would it be easier to hit that 0.5 second Fel Domination summon? Would the snare ability of a Frost Mage help? Would other comps that we don't currently have difficulty with suddenly start dominating us? A lot of those things I can test out on my own, but I figure it would be a valuable addition to get some sort of discussion going about it.

Push · 01/02/08, 6:21 PM

I switch teams in 2v2 a lot. I either play with an MS Warrior or Frost Mage.

With the team with Wakustabakus, my Frost Mage, we're #36 (~2030) right now. We don't take things too seriously, as I do 2v2 more out of boredom but we do very well, anyway.

Strong against...
Double DPS Rogue
Double DPS casters
Warlock + Healer
Warrior + Paladin/Priest/Shaman (instant victory)

Weak against...
Warrior + Druid (but not impossible)
Rogue + Healer (nearly impossible)
Hunter + Healer (very difficult)

Double DPS Rogue isn't too bad. It's the only time as Enhancement where you should wear a shield for the duration of the fight. Get on the Mage/Warlock and have your Mage CC the Rogue.

Double DPS casters is even easier. Just make sure you two can nail your interrupts between the targets, pop SR before you take damage, and win the damage fight. The key here is avoiding any massive CC on you so you can always be dealing damage, meaning your use of your trinket is very sensitive.

Warrior + Paladin/Priest/Shaman and Warlock + Healer are cake, as well. Mainly you burst the Warrior/Warlock down with the Mage CCing the healer as much as possible.

Warrior + Druid and Rogue + Healer are the two very difficult combos.

---

As far as comparing Elemental to Enhancement, I can only imagine that it'd be easier as Enhancement, just because the damage of Elemental is easy to interrupt, and it's hard to get Purges fast enough on Warlocks as Elemental.

---

As far as 2v2 with MS Warrior:

Strong against...
Warrior + Druid/Priest/Shaman (War/Dru = instant victory!)
Warlock + Healer (easy)
Double DPS caster (can go either way TBH)
Hunter + Healer

Weak against...
Double DPS Rogue (nearly impossible)
Rogue + Healer (but not impossible)
Warrior + Paladin (can be difficult)

With the MS Warrior, I've gotten a bunch of teams up, and have held top 30 with it easily.

panny · 01/02/08, 11:38 PM

Originally Posted by Psychodays

I like the Darkmoon Card: Wrath. It's pretty worthless in PvE but for PvP it seems to really help overcome resillience. Crit's being so key for enhance dps with flurry, UR, focus it's hard to argue against as a solid trinket.

That's pretty interesting, I never considered using Wrath to overcome the low crit rate of an Arena geared Shaman.

Macros I use:

Shield/Weapon switching (I use this if I'm against Rogues):

/equipslot [equipped:Mace] 17 Merciless Gladiator's Shield Wall
/equipslot [equipped:Shield] 17 Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler

Rank 1 Focus Shocking:

/cast [modifier:shift,target=mouseover] Earth Shock(Rank 1); Earth Shock

I also use a Clique setting to rank 1 ES my focus when I right-click it.

Mulgero · 01/03/08, 5:25 AM

Just recently started pvping with my shaman, pvp'd quite a bit with my mage and druid pre-bc but haven't killed horde almost a year :p In short experience 3v3 with war-lock-shaman. I got smashed right away as enhance, in all matches I got targeted, CC'd right away and quickly killed. I really need better gear/skill that's truth but decided to spec resto for arena's and doing BG's as enhance&resto to build some gear.

I can see how I could manage if I had paladin to keep me going. Problem is that now i need honor healing gear to get arena melee gear so for a while all honor will be spend on healing gear instead of melee :p Well will see how it goes once I get few pvp gear upgrades for enhance and get more used to pvp.

I could kill for getting aoe fear, sprint or charge/intercept...

Celetroll · 01/03/08, 8:55 AM

Originally Posted by Push

I switch teams in 2v2 a lot. I either play with an MS Warrior or Frost Mage.

Push, could you explain in more detail, what strat you go for vs different setups while playing with MS warrior.

I did play 2vs2 in season2 with a pally (reached 1845 at best), but would like to switch for a warrior. So far what i have seen, druid/shaman+warrior is easy enough to counter (we both smash warrior until healer comest to heal/unstealths, warrior goes for druid, i win warrior solo). Everything else has to be tested/figured out yet, would be glad for some hints to save time (yes, 2vs2 ques are shit in our battlegroup also).

thevidon · 01/03/08, 12:47 PM

I have found that it really helps my survivability in terms of not being the first target if I hang back to start a match and throw out a couple heals. It is assumed that I am resto by most teams and they send a rogue or warrior after me as "harassment". When they get close I just blast them in the face and usually end up in a 1v1 fight off to the side which I can usually pull off since their healer will be CC'd (assuming one healer teams). The Warrior/Mage burn down the third guy during this time right after I pop Bloodlust.

We have more trouble with 2 healer teams (a lot more trouble).

Pigg · 01/03/08, 2:19 PM

Originally Posted by Sebudai

My 3v3 played 10 more games last week and managed to go from 1892 to 1966. Pretty good so far I think.

The two macros I use the most are my focus target macros for rank one Earth Shock and Purge. Focus macros are very important in the arena for pretty much every class(I would assume). I also use a macro that allows me to switch to my S1 Gladiator's Shield wall or back to my Rising Tide with one press(You'll need an addon like ItemRack for this I think.) That one is especially useful against 2 physical dps/1 healer teams in 3v3.

You dont need an addon for the shield swapping macro. I use this on my enhance shaman and works like a toggle. One hit equips your shield. A second hit equips your offhand weapon. One other thing to note each time you hit the button it resets your swing timer (and spamming it will constantly switch your gear back and forth).

/equipslot [noequipped:Shields] 17 shield name here; [equipped:Shields] 17 weapon name here

Push · 01/03/08, 2:37 PM

Strong against...
Warrior + Druid/Priest/Shaman (War/Dru = instant victory!)
Warlock + Healer (easy)
Double DPS caster (can go either way TBH)
Hunter + Healer

Weak against...
Double DPS Rogue (nearly impossible)
Rogue + Healer (but not impossible)
Warrior + Paladin (can be difficult)

Warrior + Druid - Send the Warrior to the other Warrior while you Purge and stay back to heal as they solo each other. When the Druid pops out, have your Warrior switch to him. Try to get a preliminary Frost Shock (you'll see the Druid before the Warrior will most likely).

Bloodlust and make sure your Warrior has Windfury once he's on the Druid. That's where you solo the Warrior when he switches to you. Make sure you're pulling the Warrior LoS of the Druid. Your Warrior should be pushing the Druid around the Arena and one way or the other, either through switching to the Warrior to burst him when the Druid is across the Arena or by switching to the Druid when he comes in Travel Form toward you, it's an instant victory. Usually the Warrior will just be able to destroy the Druid. If the Druid Bear Form tanks, that's where you are responsible for taking the Warrior down.

Warlock + Healer - Get as many early Purges as possible, making sure you're keeping Tremor in really good spots, as one bad Fear on you will lose the fight. Time Groundings appropriately. Wreck the Warlock and keep strong off-shocks on the other Healer as allowed.

Double DPS caster - Don't let someone get caught in the middle and get destroyed. Avoid long-term CCs through Tremor/Grounding/Earth Shock. SR early. Don't be afraid to heal!!

Hunter + Healer - Mutilate the Hunter but don't be afraid to split DPS depending on the situation. Early Poison Cleansing Totem, lots of Purges to get HoTs off, and key Groundings.

Double DPS Rogue - It really depends on the approach of the other team. Usually you'll have to kill the caster. Get as many GCDs out of the way as possible early.

Rogue + Healer - Again--depends on the situation. Usually you'll want to kill the Rogue and have the Warrior Intercept the Healer at some point.

Warrior + Paladin - Though this also changes game to game, usually what happens is you burst the Warrior and off-shock the Paladin until the bubble. After DS, you kill the Pally. Ground the Shocks/Hammers of the other team and don't let yourself eat an Intimidating Shout!

---

Generally, the success of the team hinges more on judgement and GCD abuse rather than in-game strategy. Your Warrior needs to be good at switching targets and Intercepting back and forth. Good Intimidating Shouts are also very important.

Win the position and LoS game.

Be good at off-shocks and use Grounding efficiently.

Griff · 01/03/08, 5:30 PM

Push, I'm not trying to question your knowledge, as you have alot more experience than me in arena. But closing in on your comment about 2h. I can understand where you are coming from, but for example, if you had 2x Season 3 slow maces, and the s3 2h, my understanding is that Stormstrike on the 2h would come to more damage? I currently have Gorehowl as 2h, with Netherbane and s1 Axe as DW (yes my weapons slack, i am well aware of that) and my Stormstrike from 2h comes to more damage so would it not be the same with s3 weapons?

Now that is only an assumption, as i said i am not in anyway trying to question your knowledge. If it does come to more damage on SS, would it be worth making a macro to switch to 2h, stormstrike, then switch back to DW, or would there be a loss of damage between switching due to GCD?

Also a question for you, above 1800 rating, would you gem for attack power and crit more than Resilience and Stamina?

I am on the EU server Al'Akir, and it is really hard to find people who actually understand the capabilities of an enhancment shaman in arena, so finding members for a team is quite annoying.

Thanks.

Push · 01/03/08, 7:07 PM

Simply put, the Stormstrike damage with DW is actually higher. Everything is higher with DW. Though it may or may not seem it, trust me.

And gemming/enchanting for damage is always preferable to survivability, though I make an exception for my leg enchant.

Sebudai · 01/03/08, 7:18 PM

Yes, because of the way dual wield interacts with Windfury and Stormstrike, dual wielding is just more damage. It bursts a large amount of damage far more consistently, and I agree it's just much better overall. I see no reason to use a two handed weapon, even in 'jousting' situations. By dual wielding you are nearly guaranteeing that Windfury, Unleashed Rage, Flurry, and Shamanistic Focus proc every time you 'joust' a player because you're making a minimum of four attacks each pass. This is why it's really easy for Enhancement Shaman to steal killing blows in BG's. Running up to a player, pressing Stormstrike and casting Earth Shock on them is a ton of burst damage. After that it's all on cooldown for a while, but upfront it is a large amount of burst, and it is very consistent.

I don't know if I agree with Push about gemming/enchanting for damage over survivability though. In 3v3 I am the focus of the other team probably 90% of the time. In 5v5 I would guess about 50% of the time. Maybe this will change at 2k+ rating though.

Push · 01/03/08, 7:42 PM

It's not that I'm not focused a lot, but I shouldn't hinder my ability to fulfill my role (which is primarily damaging) by taking some of the healing burden off of my healer. I'm not saying I should ignore my survivability completely, but it's my healer's responsibility to keep me up, not my own. I need to do my job as effectively as possible.

More importantly, by adding that extra damage through gems and enchants, you're keeping more damage pressure on the other team. The more damage pressure you have, the less damage you'll be taking anyway.

Plus, when you're not getting focused, nearly every point of Resilience and Stamina that you've gemmed for is wasted, whereas you're always benefiting from damage enchants/gems.

Sebudai · 01/03/08, 7:56 PM

I guess in my 3v3 team I'm not really the main source of damage, our warrior is. I'm mainly there to Purge and interrupt spells in between getting raped by the opposing team. Eventually I get to add some damage, but when I'm the focus of the other team I wouldn't say it's my main role. On my 5v5 team my role is somewhat similar but I get focused less because we have a Shadow Priest. I still do quite a bit of damage, but that's mainly because the mechanics of our class allow me to burst a lot in between getting my ass kicked by CC's.

It sounds like you might get to spend more time dealing damage than I do because of your team makeup. Gemming/enchanting might just be subjective.

Azaranth · 01/03/08, 8:05 PM

Yeah, on my 3's team (Resto Druid / MS War), I'm always, always, always, the main focus target. Our druid is a fantastic kiter (aren't they all these days?) and he's nearly impossible to catch. I'm simply more squishy than any warrior. I gem and socket heavily for survivability these days, although that might change in higher brackets, I don't know.

Push uses fine logic, but in practice, I've never really had my survivability gems 'going to waste'

Killu · 01/03/08, 8:41 PM

I actually tried a 3shaman team with two of my friends and it actually works quite well, taking the level of our gear into account.

We play one of each spec and I dont think people expect that kind of setup, so we usually rush to the right side in nagrand to cause even more confusion.

Pro's of the setup:
-Having 3 shocks
-Purge
-Bloodlust uptime is almost 100%
-LOTS of totems
-Everyone has the possibility to heal
-Very high burst potential

Con's:
-No real CC
-Cast interrupts locking spellschools
-Me being kited and doing almost no dmg
-Blind(If well timed)
-Dispellmechanics

Well I think there is at least some potential in the setup, since there are two fundamental things where we can improve.
One is the gear of course and the second our skill/teamwork.

I can see the team getting to 1.8k, maybe even higher.

Griff · 01/03/08, 11:25 PM

Push and Sebudai you seem to have missed my point

Im not talking about DW overall, i'm well aware that it is better than 2h.

Im talking about STORMSTRIKE only. With one SS, i cant imagine the total of DWing stormstrike coming to more than a single two hander stormstrike.

My point was, if this is true, making a macro to switch to 2h to stormstrike in order to get the extra damage, or if it was pointless because of the GCD being triggered by Stormstrike so you cannot switch. This is basically what happens (when i get it right)
1/ Switch to 2h
2/ Stormstrike
3/ GCD
4/ Switch back to DW

After 4, because the swing timer is also reset, you lose abit of damage from that. SO is it worth it, or not atall?

I still stick with my 2hander when nuking a clothie, and 95% of the time it comes out superiour when trying to kill them faster because of the burst from stormstrike and windfury. I find that the burst with SS and WF (when timed) is alot higher than DW but that could be because my weapons in PvP fail