Push

I did understand you hehe.

"Simply put, the Stormstrike damage with DW is actually higher."

^^^^ I said that above.

I'm Enhancement.

Add 20% MS to Stormstrike or make Toughness affect immobilization effects. kthx

 

Celetroll

What my experiences have been between 2-hand and dw is that if you go for the kill, use 2-hander since your burst damage with prcoing WF while ppl are CC-ing their healer is what actually kills. But if your draining them oom, use DW. But be aware, that dualwield has higher damage only and only if your in range. If your beeing kited even 30-40% of melee time, your damage is higher with 2-hander (granted, that you have a quality twohander).

One of the reasons I tend to pref 2-hander is lack of +hit in pvp gear. But itemrack keybindings are your friends! Switching between 2-hand, dw, meleeweapon+shield, healingmace+shield a lot.

 

Hellkiter

I'd like to know, between Mongoose and Executioner, is the best enchant for Enhancement shamans in PvP? I have taken into consideration my gear (In case the Armory is not functioning, I hit 70 a couple of days ago, so I'm not in full Season 1 gear), along with the talents, and I think that Mongoose may be superior, since we want to land critical strikes, but Executioner grants armor penetration, allowing extra damage.

As for gemming, is it safe to have a mixture of Resilience/Stamina and Strength/Crit rating (Not sure if +Crit rating is a good choice because of a resilience)?

 

Perwira

I happened to stumble across this thread and I am very excited to see it! I have created an enhancement shaman guide myself, it's at:

WoW Forums -> GUIDE: Enhancement Shaman PvP

Feel free to copy and paste from it if you like, if that helps. Push himself has given his approval so it is somewhat decent at least.

It's nice to see an intellegent discussion off the wow forums, it gets very frustrating trying to communicate with a majority of posters there. If you don't mind I would like to quote some of the ideas in this thread into my guide. Anyways, I just wanted to stop by and say hi and I look forward to contributing more positively in the future, I really enjoy the maturity here that is hard to find.

GL in season all enhancement shammies

 

Celetroll

Disagree with some of your points. Not that they are wrong, but presented in a too strong manner, there are very viable exceptions to many of them, let ppl know about it:
Perwira: Speaking of weapon enchantments, always use windfury on both weapons.
- theres situations where frostband on off-hand is a win vs kitting healer u need to save your shocks for interrupts, on some (low mana situations like group BG while beeing healed) you could try it even full time to keep ppl in range

Perwira: For every circumstance, every time dual wielding is the better option.
- vs high resilliance/armor, especially playing in team, good WF proc is what kills opponent, not steady damage, unless you go for oom-ing healer
- duelling vs mage and other high cc opponents - if you only get to combat range once per SS, do it with 2-hand - if WF procs, you do more damage with that ss than with dw
- lack of +hit on pvp gear might favor 2-hand (depends on your personal gear and talentchoice - even pvping without elemental warding is a bit suicidal imo)
- top ranked shamans switch weapons like windmills, at least if they have comparable 2-hander (s2/s3 mace, torch or worldbreaker at least)

Perwira: Don't waste arena points or honor on the pvp totems. They aren't worth it.
- depends on your setup and teamsize. If you are beeing healed and its more about surviving/ooming them than going for the burstkill, then gem/totem for resilliance. But dont take stormstrike-addsres-totem, take shock-adds-res totem - theres always mana to rank1 shock every 5-6 sec than SS every 9-10 sec!

Perwira: Elemental tree. This tree is pure fool's gold for the enhancement shaman /--/
- Depends on your teamsize and setup ofc, but elemental warding + reverberation is worth consideration over faster heal, totem radius and 3% hit (keep in mind 2-hand vs DW discussion). Small teamsizes favor points in ele like 2vs2, but 5vs5 your better of with points in resto. 3vs3 really depends on your setup/strat.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft is one example, can always play around with +dodge vs faster shocks or heals balance.

PVP videos:
YouTube - Cele´s windfury moments - even it is 0 resilliance berserk-buffed crit video, it really helps to put some good light on enh shamans and make ppl believe your worth it

Totems vs rogue - stoneskin is a nice option to start with - you know you be in stun while cheapshotted and mybe in kiddney also depending on your choise of trinkletuse time, rogue doesnt want to get away at start, minimilize damage in.

Perwira: Use your PvP Insignia, Earthbind Totem and Frost Shock to get away from a warrior who charged you. Grounding totem does not absorb the stun effect of charge anymore.
- save that getaway when he disarms you. Equalgeared enh can beat warrior in 100% in combat face off match.

Perwira: Heal early, not when you're dipping below 50% w/ the occasional shock and try to get out of range.
- DONT HEAL. I mean it. Unless he has crowdcontrolled you away from him and is bandaging out of chain lighting range (improved hamstring proc or well timed fear). You loose more dps time than your MS-ed heal gives your back profit.

Perwira: Paladin. Use 1H and shield if needed.
- Might want to add here that its only good vs bursting retri and even his damage is 50% (?) holy.

General note vs many (not all) classes: water shield. After 2.3 it cant be stressed enough, use it even when your mana seems very very safe.

Perwira: vs Enhance - Interesting Fight. Depending on Gear, keep him kited while using most of your mana. Once it's close to gone just go straight to melee. If you pile on a Stormstrike with a few Earth shocks as soon as you see a Windfury pop he won't have time to do a quick heal.
- fight as warrior unless you want to relay on who-lucky-out-more-wf-procs. 1-hand+ shield and warriorish approach gurantees more wins.

 

mek

People overplay the significance of breaking melee contact, implying that it somehow favours 2H. I just don't see it. Either way, your weapon swings are primed; in one case it's one 3.8 speed weapon, in the other it's two 2.6 speed weapons, one of which hits for 50% damage. 2.6+0.5(2.6)=3.9, so DW can be expected to burst just as high as 2H weapons, ignoring WF. Counting WF, your 2H hit has an 18% chance to proc two more 3.8 speed hits; your DW hits have a 36% chance to proc two 100% 2.6 speed hits, and a 36% chance to proc two 50% 2.6 speed hits.

Obviously the potential burst of 2H is higher, but when you consider the REAL chance of proccing WF (18% for 2h, and 1-(.54)^2=59.04% chance for DW), DW slaughters 2H in dps in the vast majority of real situations. With primed DW and SS, you have two 59% chances to proc WF, while a 2h-wielder has 2 18% chances. This widens the gap further, to 33% vs. 84.19%. You can see why DW provides burst you can rely on.

There will be that rare time where a 2h could potentially burst higher, i.e. three WF procs in 6 seconds, but those aren't consistent enough to win games.

 

Sebudai

Mek explains perfectly why dual wielding is actually better for burst damage than using a two handed weapon. Not only does dual wielding provide a vastly more consistent supply of *burst* damage, but it is much better for things like Flurry, Unleashed Rage and Shamanistic Focus.

You're simply wrong in saying that a two handed weapon is better for jousting situations in which you're being CC'd quite a bit and might only get a few random swings here and there. It's not. Dual wielding is more damage even in these situations. It's better across the board.

 

Celetroll

I only believe this if your statement covers the following considerations: isnt 2-hand has higher burst if WF procs cause you see fair enough misses - no +hit on pvpgear (talentchoice!). True, that much lower damage over time, but theres many situations where you cant oom but can burst/cc healer. Many times a 5-6k ss+white+wf at once is more of a use than 15k total over the same period.

UR uptime above 25% critchance (hard to calc vs resilliance i know) should also be considered, focus is even easier to keep up all times. Same with flurry.

Got the feeling that most enh shamans just dont have equal 2-hander and if your dw weapons are way better, ofc stick to them (570+ max damage one vs merc cleavers).

 

Abakus

My experience in arenas is mostly from a 5vs5 team in the range of 1700, including a Priest (Disc/Holy), Paladin (Holy), me (Enhance) and swapping in and out Rogue, Hunter, Warrior and Frostmage.

One macro i have not seen mentioned here is

It's uses are limited, but against Rogues and Hunters it saves some Mana and a possible Freedom.
Between this macro (i have one for every member of the team, but only one on aligned to a mousebutton) and the constant poison removal provided by the totem, most hunters and rogues have a really hard time applying any poison at all.

As for the DW vs. 2h-Discussion, i'd say go with DW, except against Priests (Disc/Holy, of course).
With Martyrdom, 3 stacks Focused Will and a 1 pt. Blessed Recovery, a two-handed weapon yields better results than DW (also because Martyrdom will most likely prevent any cast pushback).

 

Sebudai

Yes it is true that a WF proc with a two hander is going to do at least slightly more damage than a WF proc while dual wielding. The important factor is that WF has a much higher chance to proc while dual wielding. You are almost three times as likely to proc WF while dual wielding and outside of the cooldown.

So not only is it more consistent burst, it's actually *much* more consistent burst. So much more in fact that it makes the theoretical situational value of a two handed weapon to be insignificant to me. I'm pretty sure I'm more likely to misjudge a situation in which I think a two handed weapon might be slightly better and actually hurt myself instead of help myself.

Lastly, I can't really even think of a past pvp encounter in which I would have been better off with a two hander. I don't think there is even an uncommon situation in which we need to burst an even more ridiculous amount of damage than we are capable of(and far more likely to do) while dual wielding to win.

 

mek

Ummm. Wow. I fail to see how this adds anything constructive to the discussion. If you have a similar video showing use of a 2hander in a high-end arena setting, that would be interesting, but that is painfully absent from what you have linked here, which is more embarrassing than anything.

 

Mulgero

Thanks for the link Perwira, least there was some new tricks I could try. Just shame that especially when it comes to pvp people are more or less idiots with their posts and comments. Prolly should remove that list of players or point out that these could be specs and gear to use.. some people left out of list can't handle it very well

Discussion, theories and fights really shows that shamans really would need some sort of pvp-CC/antiCC at least other than that I think enhance shamans have roughly what we need for pvp.

What comes to my pretty short experience of enhance pvp one of the most important thing for me is to be aggressive and trying to hit first which isn't always easy due not having stealth or charge. Will have to try out speccing imp.gw and see if I could use that for closing at the beginning it's also marginally more harder to spot than normal form.

 

Celetroll

Not trying to start a flamewar nor anything, really trying to understand where or if i have been mislead and should I really switch full time DW in pvp (at I DW about 50% of time).

Remember, that WF on DW can also proc on off-hand triggering 3 sec hidden wf cooldown. If you catch up a fleeing target and hit him once, how can it be even remotely same damage -> either 2-hand proccing WF or DW procing WF keeping in mind 50% of that WF could be off-hand WF proc?

Correct if im wrong but from my experience I would provide aprox thoes numbers for comparison (assuming non-crit on all of them). I can go awfully wrong at math or theoricrafting, correct if u see that. Numbers are taken from char sheet (damage average) with Torch of the damned vs rising tide + merc cleaver in full my full pvp gear, 360 res, 1450 ap with wf hits adding 475 ap (seems low gain, whats wf damage forumal exactly?). And we are talking of SS hit + white (that always follows) + 2xWF hits if it would proc when u catch up.

2-hand:
ss + white + 2xwf
997 (ss) + 997 (white) + 1122 + 1122 (2xwf hits) = 4238 hp

DW if main hand WF procs (50% chance)
564 (mh-ss) + 278 (oh-ss) + 564 (only mh-white is instant) + 661 + 661 (2xwf hits) = 2728 hp

DW if off-hand WF procs
564 (mh-ss) + 278 (oh-ss) + 564 (only mh-white is instant) + 327 + 327 (2xwf hits) = 2060 hp

If any of the hits would crit, difference between 2-hand and DW one-hit-burst damage grows only bigger, even not it is, or at least on paper (if math correct) very big already. Not to talk about if the crit would happen on a WF hit - higher max damage gains relatively more from crit.

Any real life situations? Every day, many times. I or me + another dps just cant kill a target - gets healed. As happens quite a few times in 3vs3, me + warrior dpsing, even with MS applied, theres troubles. CC on us, not enough interrupts on their healer. Pull out 2-hand, focusshock after that lucky WF hit and whops, that 50% hp "sill safe" enemy drops dead.

Or a mage coming close to finish my 10% hp with cone of cold/aoe, or a rogue (shit happens tho if caught with 2-hand) stunlock breaking just for one SS. Every day I do pure WF kills, 6-7k instant damage. Suprise! Caught off guard! HP low, panic, lets bubble/use cooldowns. Bursty damage is for PVP i would say.

 

• Juice

The difference between 2h and DW is pretty straight forward. If you want staggering bursts that can put 8k on a target out of freaking nowhere, use 2h. If you want superior DPS that puts a non-stop barrage of pushback and damage on the target, while synergizing with other shaman talents (Unleashed rage, shamanistic rage, etc), use DW. Over any reasonable period of time, DW does more damage on average. 2h has the potential to burst higher and produces net less DPS.

If you want the potental of really high burst and you're ok with net lower DPS, take 2h.

 

Mulgero

*removed*

 

Malan

Please enlighten me how using a 2 Hander while being kited (presumably with the target out of range) is going to produce more damage than DWing in the same situation. As far as I know, and hey I could be totally wrong here but I don't think I am, you can't hit jack shit with either setup if you aren't in range.

I get what you're saying, 2H hits hard. Big numbers flash by and everyone sees a guy's health drop. But we also all know how infrequently that happens when you're swinging a 3.8 weapon. Yah that huge 15k burst damage does come in handy at times, but you have zero control over when it happens.

And the video that you posted supposedly confirming the 2H damage? Big deal. That stuff has been around since the day Windfury made its way into the game. Its always the same thing, quick scene after quick scene of some shaman killing a guy in half a second. Of course they never show the other 30minutes of the BG where they couldn't kill a damn thing because they were waiting on procs.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Aett

PvP is about control more than burst. You can't control 2hander burst at all, it just happens whether you want it to or not. If we had an ability that would make the next stormstrike proc a guaranteed windfury proc then I'd be all for pulling out a 2hander and going to town, but we don't.

Dual wielding is going to be smaller burst, but it happens a hell of a lot more often. From a healers point of view, one big burst is honestly better than a whole bunch of smaller bursts. If I see a big chunk of health go down, I BoP and half the time I'll get off a heal in within it. Druids and shamans can blow their NS. The chances of that burst happening again while the target is low? Minimal. Catching a healer off guard will happen, but not twice. If you don't kill that target the first time you pull out a 2hander and the healer is good, whatever edge that 2hander gave you is now gone.

The damage dual wield is capable of putting out will force healers into the open. They will have to stand there casting and then be extremely vulnerable to interrupts and drains. Let the interrupts provide the same effect burst will, but in a much more reliable way. Pelting a healer with shocks will force them to change tactics, they will use bigger heals that they can fit between your shocks, and that will run them out of mana very, very, very fast. Forcing a paladin to go from flash to holy light is making them jump from a 180 mana spell to an 840 mana spell. Druid mana will drain even faster if you force an HPS race. Priests are somewhere in between.

The moral I attempted here is burst doesn't win, control wins.

 

Perwira

Thanks for all the speedy replies

I guess I get a little strong, but when dealing with the wow forums I don't have much of choice. If I don't lay it out for them plain and simple it gets chaotic. You bring up some points I have never thought of celetroll, I'm surprised.

I've never heard of off handing frost brand. I can see where the slowing effect is handy, but I've found that it is a major gimp in dps for an unreliable proc. You mention a couple of sitautions where it might be handy, but I'm just not tricky enough to be switching weapon chants mid-fight. Do any other shamans use this? This tip really opened my eyes, I think it is the first time I've thought about it.

The 2-handed to DW debate can go forever. I still think DW is better than 2-handed in every situation, but at this point it's do what you want. I can't imagine praying for the "alpha strike" (triple WF crit) can match the consistancy of DW. It just seems to me everything about the enhancement shaman is built around dual wielding between talents and SF/SR/UR/Flurry gets so much more.

I personally haven't seen a shaman with a pvp totem. They all have stonebreaker, so that is where I get I get my info from. Makes sense to me, the offense gained through the offensive totems is much greater than the defensive the pvp totems gives. The goal to playing an enhancement is an "in your face style going to break you in half" style and keeping up the pressure with the max damage you can contribute fits that style.

Push in a couple of posts up talks about his resto talents and that's just the way I feel about them. Basically it comes down +3% spell/melee hit, cheaper totems, hard to interrupt heals, greater totem range > reverb. If I did nothing but bgs all day, I might take the elemental path but for a well rounded pvp shaman that does arena, resto just gives so much!

I admit, that video isn't great, but I just wanted to put some videos up. It's not like I had much to choose from
Yeah, I think it does deserve some kinda preface to it though.

I have some more stuff to say, I'll think about it and come back later.

 

Griff

I think what he is saying is when you do get in range, sorry IF you get in range, and you single hit the enemy 2h will provide more damage.

As i said, i stick with 2h when we are nuking down a clothie, because i find my SS with 2h does more damage, and the bigger burst = better, even if it is less likally because that sudden 6k+ instant damage is going to catch them offguard and give your DPS an advantage.

Consistent high damage is all good and dandy, but it aint gunna help if it is being outhealed. Hense my choice of 2h against clothies. It could just be the simple fact that my Weapons compared to the rest of my PvP gear actually fail. Netherbane + Gladiators Axe, and Gorehowl.

Someone needs to do a test using the Season 3 2hander and 2 of the Season 3 1 handers. Against a 350+ resilience warrior with 11k armor, thats about the average stats of a warrior right? And prove for or against 2hander, because what ive seen so far is opinions and assumptions, or perhaps experiences based on unbalanced weapons? For example, 2 x 100.3 DPS weapons against a 128 DPS 2h.

 

Celetroll

So much about trying to present reason and get feedback to what I presented. Not like im saying go 2-hand forget DW. No, read again if you got the feeling. Your smart enough to understand what I m saying but cocky enough not to if you don´t feel like it, Malan. Flamewar or give a tiny bit of credit if others have a point, up to you.

Assume your out of range with some sloweffect on you. Catch up, do the (above calculated) 1 shot damage with 2-hand, get cc-d again and again, you drop out of range; get back to range, do 1 ss, fall out of range again... very likely scenario in arenas. If this happens, pull out your 2-hand. If not, stick with DW.

 

Malan

Look, three guys who's arena scores (not me, I'm terrible) far above your own have already stated that 2H is pretty bad and listed the reasons why. Your answer is "I feel like I get bigger numbers from a 2H."

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Griff

Ok, they have stated and given reasons. But i have yet to see proof. If their opinions on 2handers is that bad, they are hardly going to waste arena points on one, now are they? So my question is where did they get this information?

To me it looks like assumptions and perhaps some people might say "common sense/logic" but i still would like to see a test to prove either way.

Perhaps with your comments, Malan, you could input some information that is actually helpful to all the other Enhancment shamans reading this to help them out? That primarily is what i am doing.

 

panny

Proof? How can you prove one method is superior to other when the circumstances of PvP are so broad? All you can do is reason about it.

Fix Spirit Wolves not responding to commands.
DK/Rogue

 

Griff

Thats why i said test 2h and DW with equal weapons on a 350+ resilience, 11k armor warrior. It wouldn't prove which is better overall, but it counting the high resilience, and damage reduction you would see roughly which weapon choice has the higher damage output on stormstrike.

I completely understand what Push, Sebudai, Mek etc are saying. DW has more consistent burst and damage, and uptime on UR, better for Shamanistic rage and interrupting healers, But claiming that DW does more damage on Stormstrike completely baffles me and i fail to see how that is possible. Thats what i want to be tested and proven. Maybe it is just because my 2h is superior to my 1 handed weapons, but it is also possible that their duel wielding choice is superior to any 2h they might have or do use.

 

Aett

What test would you like to see? To test something there has to be a viable test, apart from that you take anecdotal evidence from reliable sources. People of experience are saying dw is the way to go. If you have an idea for at test by all means suggest it.