As for the DW vs. 2h-Discussion, i'd say go with DW, except against Priests (Disc/Holy, of course).
With Martyrdom, 3 stacks Focused Will and a 1 pt. Blessed Recovery, a two-handed weapon yields better results than DW (also because Martyrdom will most likely prevent any cast pushback).
What test would you like to see? To test something there has to be a viable test, apart from that you take anecdotal evidence from reliable sources. People of experience are saying dw is the way to go. If you have an idea for at test by all means suggest it.
I have mentioned it numerous times. And i am in no way doubting that DW overall is better. I am well aware of that.
The test would be, lets say, 10 stormstrike HITS (not crits- due to resilience in Arena) using a season 3 2 hander, then 10 stormstrike hits with 2 x Season 3 2.60 1 handers. On the average geared (at 1800+ rating) Disc priest, MS warrior and perhaps a hunter. Then the average damage with both sets of weapons calculated to see which actually does higher damage on Stormstrike.
Thats why i said test 2h and DW with equal weapons on a 350+ resilience, 11k armor warrior. It wouldn't prove which is better overall, but it counting the high resilience, and damage reduction you would see roughly which weapon choice has the higher damage output on stormstrike.
I completely understand what Push, Sebudai, Mek etc are saying. DW has more consistent burst and damage, and uptime on UR, better for Shamanistic rage and interrupting healers, But claiming that DW does more damage on Stormstrike completely baffles me and i fail to see how that is possible. Thats what i want to be tested and proven. Maybe it is just because my 2h is superior to my 1 handed weapons, but it is also possible that their duel wielding choice is superior to any 2h they might have or do use.
And how will you run this test? How many times? With what partners? On which Arena? In which bracket?
It's pretty simple to see how DW is better than a 2h on SS.
Pretend you have zero AP. With a 2h, you get 134.2 damage on SS. While DWing, you get 154.6 damage (half on the offhand). And since DW scales better with AP, DW is higher damage.
Good grief why do we need to *test* it, we're talking about weapon damage vs a player here, you can just calculate it. You don't even need to consider resilience if you're also not considering crits.
I have mentioned it numerous times. And i am in no way doubting that DW overall is better. I am well aware of that.
The test would be, lets say, 10 stormstrike HITS (not crits- due to resilience in Arena) using a season 3 2 hander, then 10 stormstrike hits with 2 x Season 3 2.60 1 handers. On the average geared (at 1800+ rating) Disc priest, MS warrior and perhaps a hunter. Then the average damage with both sets of weapons calculated to see which actually does higher damage on Stormstrike.
Ten hits is a tiny sample, not to mention you can't discount crits since they do occur in arena situtations. If you're just comparing single SS hits, you don't need to do any tests at all, you just need to run the maths, armour, defense buffs, and your stats either affect both approaches equally or favour DW.
But claiming that DW does more damage on Stormstrike completely baffles me and i fail to see how that is possible. Thats what i want to be tested and proven. Maybe it is just because my 2h is superior to my 1 handed weapons, but it is also possible that their duel wielding choice is superior to any 2h they might have or do use.
I think Panny has the right idea to illustrate why DW has higher Stormstrike damage than 2H.
I don't understand how so many people still talk about 2H versus DW on the Shaman Forums or in this thread.
I'm at a loss...it's so obvious...the math is like 11th grade math hehe. I recognize the allure of 2H, but there isn't a single advantage it presents.
I think what people fail to realize is that 2H is less burst damage...I don't know I'm kind of sick about hearing it--I haven't been able to take part in the Shaman Forums for a week thanks to 50% of the threads being a topic I've addressed 80 times.
I don't know how much clearer the answer can be! Anyway, see you guys later. Don't mean to complain but I don't think people are really talking about Enhancement PvP anymore.
I'm Enhancement.
Add 20% MS to Stormstrike or make Toughness affect immobilization effects. kthx
2h has a higher burst when it procs WF. GL getting 6k+ damage with DW WF + SS. Overall it is more damage yes.
The advantage of 2h is the high burst when WF procs, which yes, does make it unreliable and un controllable.
That test was a small example, its not perfect i know. You can get the basic idea from calculating it yes, but the fact is with me (again may be because of my weapons) a single hit with my 2h adds up to more damage than a single hit with each of my DW, making it higher damage on stormstrike.
I AM NOT, for the last time, SUGGESTING that a 2hander is better than DW in Arena overall. I know it isnt.
Going by what you say panny
Netherbane - 96.5
Gladiator s1 Axe - 91.2
Gorehowl - 119.9
With no AP gorehowl would be 119.9 damage on SS, but with DW id get 142.1 Yet my 2h Stormstrike wields more damage.
Hence my suggestion for a test. Calculation says that DW should give more damage, but in practice it doesnt (FOR ME)
If someone could explain to me why it works differently for me that would be great. As i said i am in no way doubting DW, or the experience/knowledge of any of the high rating arena shamans here. But that is my reasoning for the questions about Stormstrike. I do admit though, the difference is VERY slim. But 2h still comes out on top on average. There are times when my DW SS deals more damage, but on average my 2h > DW for stormstrike.
Hence my suggestion for a test. Calculation says that DW should give more damage, but in practice it doesnt
But 2h still comes out on top on average. There are times when my DW SS deals more damage, but on average my 2h > DW for stormstrike.(FOR ME)
You have got to be kidding me. Now you're just ignoring how this game works and this argument is getting dumb. (Not to mention that the last sentence there is amazingly contradictory)
An average weapon hit with no crits = (Weapon DPS + AP/14) * Weapon Speed
If DWing, divide that by 2 for the 2nd hit.
Unless you can post about an hour's worth of logs along with your stats while wielding both, I'm going to say it's human perception -you remember the big numbers of your 2h SS and forget the smaller ones, and don't notice the two smaller numbers that add up to greater than the big single number.
As an aside, you might want to read a few of the threads about testing methodologies. The way you're going about measuring and comparing different approaches is very flawed.
Ok, i am going to admit to being wrong. This argument is getting very dumb purely because of me. I am quite ill so my mind is working 100% which would explain my lack of logic and common sense on the matter.
Just so you know, i was not questioning anyone's knowledge, and i wasnt trying to prove anyone wrong. I was simply querying. I now know.
I apologise for wasting time and space on this forum for a pointless discussion. And thank you for proving otherwise. I hope that my idiotic comments do not give you a bad opinion of me. Reading back i see that everything i said sounds completely stupid and makes me look like someone who knows nothing about their class.
Back to the PvP Discussion!
Someone mentioned at the start of this thread about new proposals for Rock biter?
We need something added that is going to take skill to be used well (as opposed to a chance on hit) but also going to improve us.
I think what people fail to realize is that 2H is less burst damage...
What keeps people talking about it is the fact that 2H can burst for more damage in 1 instant because of the broader weapon damage range due to the slower speed. The math and anecdotal evidence shows us that, over the average, those huge bursts are countered with low damage hits that average out to lower damage output over a period of time than DW.
Still, when anyone swings for 6-8k, they start thinking big and looking for ways to include 2h in their rotation. I made the same mistake back before resilience was common, and it took discussions with experienced arena enhancement shaman to shake me of my love of 2h.
Putting that topic to bed, I saw the false 2.4 patch notes on the WoW forums today, and specific to shaman, I saw some guy say that blue had indicated they were looking at making Shamanistic Rage a physical effect (no dispell) and making it include immunity to snares in internal testing. If that happens, I'd put down the lightning hose and pick up the axes again.
Putting that topic to bed, I saw the false 2.4 patch notes on the WoW forums today, and specific to shaman, I saw some guy say that blue had indicated they were looking at making Shamanistic Rage a physical effect (no dispell) and making it include immunity to snares in internal testing.
I've never heard of off handing frost brand. I can see where the slowing effect is handy, but I've found that it is a major gimp in dps for an unreliable proc. You mention a couple of sitautions where it might be handy, but I'm just not tricky enough to be switching weapon chants mid-fight. Do any other shamans use this? This tip really opened my eyes, I think it is the first time I've thought about it.
Just a thought about this idea of offhanding frostbrand. Would it be worth keeping a 1.4sec dagger and frostbranding it before the game starts so you could macro it out for specific situations?
Just a thought about this idea of offhanding frostbrand. Would it be worth keeping a 1.4sec dagger and frostbranding it before the game starts so you could macro it out for specific situations?
I think when chasing a healer that offhand frostbrand is more desirable than WF. I think its a good idea.
Just a thought about this idea of offhanding frostbrand. Would it be worth keeping a 1.4sec dagger and frostbranding it before the game starts so you could macro it out for specific situations?
People really need to read the main shaman thread in class mechanics before posting here. Frostbrand is a proc per minute buff, putting it on a slower weapon has a better chance of seeing it proc per weapon swing without a lot of white damage filler. My experience with frostbrand is that it's only a 25% movement speed debuff, can be dispelled or shifted out of, and seriously gimps your damage by not only removing windfury on one weapon, but by dropping the proc rate of windfury from 36% to 18%. Plus you have to be in melee range anyway to apply the snare. Alternating earthbind/frostshock and using 1 sec cast ghost wolf works better for me when chasing healers.
Let's not turn this into pages of 2h vs DW and wish lists for talents. Let's focus on experience in arena. Those with high arena ratings can tell us what works, and those of us not so blessed can share what isn't working.
30 seconds of non dispellable snare immunity on top of 30% damage reduction might be a bit crazy for us.
I'm sure I'll be flogged for saying that.
You miserable son of a bitch. I don't think it'd be crazy in the least. It's a significant buff, and given that we're weak in pvp, it's appropriate.
Too much might be making it a fear and stun immunity too.
Link to my other comment item: WoW Forums -> 2.4 rumored patch notes.
Text "The only shaman change I have seen mentioned was about making SR a physical buff and freeing shaman from impairments. In that post the blue said that was only a potential change that was being tested out internally. "
This is not official information, it's just WoW Forums chatter. It may be bullshit. But I mentioned it, so that's the source where I saw it.
SR freeing you from roots/snares when you use it would be fine.
SR Giving you BOF for 30 seconds would be horrendously OP. We're already a casters worst nightmare in melee, giving us snare immunity would be a death sentence to anything in cloth.
I'd rather SR not be made our solution to being kited. How many eggs do you want to put in one basket? SR is our solution to getting Focus Fired, and it's our solution when OOM. If you also make it our kite solution, the odds of getting the most out of that ability on each use are pretty small. I'd rather ghost wolf get a feral charge or something.
Anyway, I'd prefer this thread be about using what we've got, not day dreaming about possible buffs. I like the discussion about frostbrand. I didn't even think about keeping a set (probably my PVE weapons) around with FB enchanted on them. It's not a bad idea for when you're chasing that resto druid, and you're fighting to keep him in range. It never hurts to have it as an option anyway....
People really need to read the main shaman thread in class mechanics before posting here. Frostbrand is a proc per minute buff, putting it on a slower weapon has a better chance of seeing it proc per weapon swing without a lot of white damage filler. My experience with frostbrand is that it's only a 25% movement speed debuff, can be dispelled or shifted out of, and seriously gimps your damage by not only removing windfury on one weapon, but by dropping the proc rate of windfury from 36% to 18%. Plus you have to be in melee range anyway to apply the snare. Alternating earthbind/frostshock and using 1 sec cast ghost wolf works better for me when chasing healers.
Let's not turn this into pages of 2h vs DW and wish lists for talents. Let's focus on experience in arena. Those with high arena ratings can tell us what works, and those of us not so blessed can share what isn't working.
Sorry, didn't realize that it was a PPM buff. I've only been leveling a shaman alt for a little while now and she is only 64 so I've only just started to think about the best ways to Arena/BG with her.
I read the first post of the thread you cited a few times already but it has no information on Frostbrand or it being a PPM mechanic. That entire thread is 101 pages long so I haven't yet been able to assimilate everything contained in the thread yet so I apologize for my error.
I think the whole concept of having another weapon buffed with frostbrand is more about being able to save your shock cooldown for a heal and not using the GCD on a earthbind totem so it can be saved to purge a HoT or Shield as needed. I really don't know yet and that's why I was asking.
People really need to read the main shaman thread in class mechanics before posting here. Frostbrand is a proc per minute buff, putting it on a slower weapon has a better chance of seeing it proc per weapon swing without a lot of white damage filler. My experience with frostbrand is that it's only a 25% movement speed debuff, can be dispelled or shifted out of, and seriously gimps your damage by not only removing windfury on one weapon, but by dropping the proc rate of windfury from 36% to 18%. Plus you have to be in melee range anyway to apply the snare. Alternating earthbind/frostshock and using 1 sec cast ghost wolf works better for me when chasing healers.
I think this pretty much sums up the talk about frostbrand. In shorter terms: Don't do it. An enhancement shaman already has the capability to slow and it's not worth the signifigant decrease in damage.
Originally Posted by Griff
Someone mentioned at the start of this thread about new proposals for Rock biter?
We need something added that is going to take skill to be used well (as opposed to a chance on hit) but also going to improve us.
What's wrong with windfury? I find it very class defining and downright explosive. Rockbiter as it is right now is more "skill" based as it is proc-less already. Maybe I am being a stick in the mud, but I can't see how a weapon enchant is going to be game breaking. As far as new proposals are concerned I would think that it would come from GW or SR, maybe another totem or ability or something...but in pvp discussion I think it's more important to think about what we already have instead of trying to think about creating new stuff.
Originally Posted by Griff
Someone needs to do a test using the Season 3 2hander and 2 of the Season 3 1 handers. Against a 350+ resilience warrior with 11k armor, thats about the average stats of a warrior right? And prove for or against 2hander, because what ive seen so far is opinions and assumptions, or perhaps experiences based on unbalanced weapons? For example, 2 x 100.3 DPS weapons against a 128 DPS 2h.
This is my last comment ever on DW to 2-hand....tests have been done, and it's not on a spreadsheet. It's the arena scores of top arena shamans. Push, Nidaime, Tsalrioth, Mauro, and Diivide (and many others) have posted the highest arena scores by enhancement shaman and without a doubt the highest arena scores are posted by DWers. The reasons have been posted 1000s of times and if you wish to stay "old school" good on you, but DW will make you a better pvp shaman.
Originally Posted by Mulgero
Thanks for the link Perwira, least there was some new tricks I could try. Just shame that especially when it comes to pvp people are more or less idiots with their posts and comments. Prolly should remove that list of players or point out that these could be specs and gear to use.. some people left out of list can't handle it very well
Discussion, theories and fights really shows that shamans really would need some sort of pvp-CC/antiCC at least other than that I think enhance shamans have roughly what we need for pvp.
What comes to my pretty short experience of enhance pvp one of the most important thing for me is to be aggressive and trying to hit first which isn't always easy due not having stealth or charge. Will have to try out speccing imp.gw and see if I could use that for closing at the beginning it's also marginally more harder to spot than normal form.
Thank you, glad you liked the link. You sure are right about that dang list. /facepalm...I received sooo many more replies to that than I ever wanted to. As far as more or less CC or anti-CC or whatnot needed, I don't really think that any of it is need, especially more CC...wow has enough already. An anti-CC would be kinda neato, but again I think in pvp discussion too much emphasis is placed on what we need or don't need instead of what we have and what we can do with it.
A team like the one push uses has CC galore, it's up to the enhance shammy to bring his own strengths to the team. If you are being CC to much, have a pally BoF you or a priest dispel you. Maybe you should have used a tremor or grouding totem? Maybe you should have saved an ES for the CC. The answer is out there already, it's just picking a smart team make up and everyone playing to each other's strenghts.
Staying aggressive is what your team needs to play as. Push talks about controlling the fight...if you stay aggressive you make the other team/player do what you want them to do. Remember the GW also prevents a rogue's sap so that is also something to think about when starting a fight.
Originally Posted by mek
Ummm. Wow. I fail to see how this adds anything constructive to the discussion. If you have a similar video showing use of a 2hander in a high-end arena setting, that would be interesting, but that is painfully absent from what you have linked here, which is more embarrassing than anything.
That link was from my guide on the wow forums, no need to blow up on celetroll. I admit it is a rather terrible video but I just wanted to put something up cause I couldn't find anything. I suggest Diivide's or Zagine's videos if you want something better.
Originally Posted by Celetroll
Totems vs rogue - stoneskin is a nice option to start with - you know you be in stun while cheapshotted and mybe in kiddney also depending on your choise of trinkletuse time, rogue doesnt want to get away at start, minimilize damage in.
Perwira: Use your PvP Insignia, Earthbind Totem and Frost Shock to get away from a warrior who charged you. Grounding totem does not absorb the stun effect of charge anymore.
- save that getaway when he disarms you. Equalgeared enh can beat warrior in 100% in combat face off match.
Perwira: Heal early, not when you're dipping below 50% w/ the occasional shock and try to get out of range.
- DONT HEAL. I mean it. Unless he has crowdcontrolled you away from him and is bandaging out of chain lighting range (improved hamstring proc or well timed fear). You loose more dps time than your MS-ed heal gives your back profit.
Perwira: Paladin. Use 1H and shield if needed.
- Might want to add here that its only good vs bursting retri and even his damage is 50% (?) holy.
General note vs many (not all) classes: water shield. After 2.3 it cant be stressed enough, use it even when your mana seems very very safe.
Perwira: vs Enhance - Interesting Fight. Depending on Gear, keep him kited while using most of your mana. Once it's close to gone just go straight to melee. If you pile on a Stormstrike with a few Earth shocks as soon as you see a Windfury pop he won't have time to do a quick heal.
- fight as warrior unless you want to relay on who-lucky-out-more-wf-procs. 1-hand+ shield and warriorish approach gurantees more wins.
-Yeah, I pretty much agree with you on the warrior. I don't know about 100% of the time though, but getting away from the disarm is a bloody brilliant idea. As far as slipping in a heal, it is important to time it. Obviously if you get a heal while MS'd it's a waste. You're already 1/2 of lousy heal to begin with, but if you can warstomp with 1 sec left of a MS on you and slip a quick heal in, it can be all you need.
-I think it's pretty obvious you would only use a shield on a ret pally. If you are using a shield on a holy pally, you're in the wrong place.
-Water shield is going to be amazing, it is definately worth keeping up.
Nothing is wrong with windfury. Rockbiter isnt skill based atall. And i wasnt suggesting it. I was just using it as an example to put my opinion across. If we were to get something to improve us, i personally would prefer it if it would be something that requires skill to be used well as opposed to a chance on hit ability.
And yes i am fully aware about the tests being the arena scores. As i siad i wasnt with it, i wasnt thinking logically because i am ill.
Perwira: Use your PvP Insignia, Earthbind Totem and Frost Shock to get away from a warrior who charged you. Grounding totem does not absorb the stun effect of charge anymore.
- save that getaway when he disarms you. Equalgeared enh can beat warrior in 100% in combat face off match.
Get another 1h weapon with a weapon chain, and when you see him switch stances, equip the disarm immune weapon. Problem solved.
I'd be more interested to hear more discussion about how much people try to max out their GCDs. I know Push has stated that he tries to use every single one. My experience with over-using GCD is that I A) run out of mana with my elemental offspec and B) I can't time my shocks as well as I would like.
I guess the two main questions would be:
Is it just my elemental offspec running me out of mana? The reduced mana cost of totems wasn't really mentioned before (or at least I didn't really notice it) as strong points in the resto vs ele offspec discussion. It was mentioned a few posts ago and it got me rethinking my elemental offspec.
Does the increase in utility from using every GCD offset the lost flexibility in timing shocks? I like the idea that good timing is incredibly strong when it comes to shocks and I'm worried that loosing the ability to time shocks well would hinder my performance.
The second question is really the one I'd like a better answer to, the first one is a lot more cut and dry. I specifically phrased the second question in a way that won't lend to another elemental vs resto discussion, that has been done and not what I'm aiming for. It is a question about play style and not spec.
Anyone considering buying the lvl 60 blue PvP boots (Blood Guard's Mail Greaves - Items - World of Warcraft), then making a macro to switch out your current boots for those? I'm sure it would be useful in catching up to that druid that's running all over the place. The downside of it is that it can't be used in combat.
I currently use that idea, but don't have a real active arena team atm (at least in the upper bracket), so I use it whenever I go to take the flag in either WSG or EoTS.
My macro looks something like this:
/equip Blood Guard's Mail Greaves
/cast Ghost Wolf
I'm sure there's a way to make it so once you hit that macro button again, you get out of ghost wolf and equip your old boots, but I'm not that good with macros....
Sorry in advance if this idea seems completely useless and/or stupid.
Anyone considering buying the lvl 60 blue PvP boots (Blood Guard's Mail Greaves - Items - World of Warcraft), then making a macro to switch out your current boots for those? I'm sure it would be useful in catching up to that druid that's running all over the place. The downside of it is that it can't be used in combat.
I currently use that idea, but don't have a real active arena team atm (at least in the upper bracket), so I use it whenever I go to take the flag in either WSG or EoTS.
My macro looks something like this:
/equip Blood Guard's Mail Greaves
/cast Ghost Wolf
I'm sure there's a way to make it so once you hit that macro button again, you get out of ghost wolf and equip your old boots, but I'm not that good with macros....
Sorry in advance if this idea seems completely useless and/or stupid.
01/04/08, 1:34 PM
Anyway, see you guys later. Don't mean to complain but I don't think people are really talking about Enhancement PvP anymore.
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