jlavarj

You can purge Focused Will.

 

Griff

I have mentioned it numerous times. And i am in no way doubting that DW overall is better. I am well aware of that.

The test would be, lets say, 10 stormstrike HITS (not crits- due to resilience in Arena) using a season 3 2 hander, then 10 stormstrike hits with 2 x Season 3 2.60 1 handers. On the average geared (at 1800+ rating) Disc priest, MS warrior and perhaps a hunter. Then the average damage with both sets of weapons calculated to see which actually does higher damage on Stormstrike.

 

panny

And how will you run this test? How many times? With what partners? On which Arena? In which bracket?

It's pretty simple to see how DW is better than a 2h on SS.

[Vengeful Gladiator's Decapitator]: 134.2 dps

[Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver]: 103.1 dps

Pretend you have zero AP. With a 2h, you get 134.2 damage on SS. While DWing, you get 154.6 damage (half on the offhand). And since DW scales better with AP, DW is higher damage.

 

◊ Malan

Good grief why do we need to *test* it, we're talking about weapon damage vs a player here, you can just calculate it. You don't even need to consider resilience if you're also not considering crits.

Vyktianity already has over 75 billion followers. The first verse in his book "Gift of the Wild" is "In the beginning Vyk cast lifebloom and then maul."

 

panny

Ten hits is a tiny sample, not to mention you can't discount crits since they do occur in arena situtations. If you're just comparing single SS hits, you don't need to do any tests at all, you just need to run the maths, armour, defense buffs, and your stats either affect both approaches equally or favour DW.

 

Push

I think Panny has the right idea to illustrate why DW has higher Stormstrike damage than 2H.

I don't understand how so many people still talk about 2H versus DW on the Shaman Forums or in this thread.

I'm at a loss...it's so obvious...the math is like 11th grade math hehe. I recognize the allure of 2H, but there isn't a single advantage it presents.

I think what people fail to realize is that 2H is less burst damage...I don't know I'm kind of sick about hearing it--I haven't been able to take part in the Shaman Forums for a week thanks to 50% of the threads being a topic I've addressed 80 times.

I don't know how much clearer the answer can be! Anyway, see you guys later. Don't mean to complain but I don't think people are really talking about Enhancement PvP anymore.

I'm Enhancement.

Add 20% MS to Stormstrike or make Toughness affect immobilization effects. kthx

 

Griff

2h has a higher burst when it procs WF. GL getting 6k+ damage with DW WF + SS. Overall it is more damage yes.

The advantage of 2h is the high burst when WF procs, which yes, does make it unreliable and un controllable.

That test was a small example, its not perfect i know. You can get the basic idea from calculating it yes, but the fact is with me (again may be because of my weapons) a single hit with my 2h adds up to more damage than a single hit with each of my DW, making it higher damage on stormstrike.

I AM NOT, for the last time, SUGGESTING that a 2hander is better than DW in Arena overall. I know it isnt.

Going by what you say panny
Netherbane - 96.5
Gladiator s1 Axe - 91.2
Gorehowl - 119.9

With no AP gorehowl would be 119.9 damage on SS, but with DW id get 142.1 Yet my 2h Stormstrike wields more damage.

Hence my suggestion for a test. Calculation says that DW should give more damage, but in practice it doesnt (FOR ME)

If someone could explain to me why it works differently for me that would be great. As i said i am in no way doubting DW, or the experience/knowledge of any of the high rating arena shamans here. But that is my reasoning for the questions about Stormstrike. I do admit though, the difference is VERY slim. But 2h still comes out on top on average. There are times when my DW SS deals more damage, but on average my 2h > DW for stormstrike.

 

◊ Malan

You have got to be kidding me. Now you're just ignoring how this game works and this argument is getting dumb. (Not to mention that the last sentence there is amazingly contradictory)

An average weapon hit with no crits = (Weapon DPS + AP/14) * Weapon Speed
If DWing, divide that by 2 for the 2nd hit.

Thus for S3 weapons, a stormstrike with 1500 AP:

S3 2H = (134.2 + 1500/14) * 3.6 = 519.91

SW DWing with 2.6 weapons = (103.1 + 1500/14) * 2.6 + ((103.1 + 1500/14)*2.6)/2 = 819.94

So you tell me, which scenario hits harder?

Vyktianity already has over 75 billion followers. The first verse in his book "Gift of the Wild" is "In the beginning Vyk cast lifebloom and then maul."

 

panny

Unless you can post about an hour's worth of logs along with your stats while wielding both, I'm going to say it's human perception -you remember the big numbers of your 2h SS and forget the smaller ones, and don't notice the two smaller numbers that add up to greater than the big single number.

As an aside, you might want to read a few of the threads about testing methodologies. The way you're going about measuring and comparing different approaches is very flawed.

 

Griff

Ok, i am going to admit to being wrong. This argument is getting very dumb purely because of me. I am quite ill so my mind is working 100% which would explain my lack of logic and common sense on the matter.

Just so you know, i was not questioning anyone's knowledge, and i wasnt trying to prove anyone wrong. I was simply querying. I now know.

I apologise for wasting time and space on this forum for a pointless discussion. And thank you for proving otherwise. I hope that my idiotic comments do not give you a bad opinion of me. Reading back i see that everything i said sounds completely stupid and makes me look like someone who knows nothing about their class.

Back to the PvP Discussion!

Someone mentioned at the start of this thread about new proposals for Rock biter?

We need something added that is going to take skill to be used well (as opposed to a chance on hit) but also going to improve us.

 

• Juice

What keeps people talking about it is the fact that 2H can burst for more damage in 1 instant because of the broader weapon damage range due to the slower speed. The math and anecdotal evidence shows us that, over the average, those huge bursts are countered with low damage hits that average out to lower damage output over a period of time than DW.

Still, when anyone swings for 6-8k, they start thinking big and looking for ways to include 2h in their rotation. I made the same mistake back before resilience was common, and it took discussions with experienced arena enhancement shaman to shake me of my love of 2h.

Putting that topic to bed, I saw the false 2.4 patch notes on the WoW forums today, and specific to shaman, I saw some guy say that blue had indicated they were looking at making Shamanistic Rage a physical effect (no dispell) and making it include immunity to snares in internal testing. If that happens, I'd put down the lightning hose and pick up the axes again.

 

◊ Malan

30 seconds of non dispellable snare immunity on top of 30% damage reduction might be a bit crazy for us.

I'm sure I'll be flogged for saying that.

Vyktianity already has over 75 billion followers. The first verse in his book "Gift of the Wild" is "In the beginning Vyk cast lifebloom and then maul."

 

• thevidon

Link?

 

Rounced

Just a thought about this idea of offhanding frostbrand. Would it be worth keeping a 1.4sec dagger and frostbranding it before the game starts so you could macro it out for specific situations?

 

• thevidon

I think when chasing a healer that offhand frostbrand is more desirable than WF. I think its a good idea.

 

jlavarj

People really need to read the main shaman thread in class mechanics before posting here. Frostbrand is a proc per minute buff, putting it on a slower weapon has a better chance of seeing it proc per weapon swing without a lot of white damage filler. My experience with frostbrand is that it's only a 25% movement speed debuff, can be dispelled or shifted out of, and seriously gimps your damage by not only removing windfury on one weapon, but by dropping the proc rate of windfury from 36% to 18%. Plus you have to be in melee range anyway to apply the snare. Alternating earthbind/frostshock and using 1 sec cast ghost wolf works better for me when chasing healers.

Let's not turn this into pages of 2h vs DW and wish lists for talents. Let's focus on experience in arena. Those with high arena ratings can tell us what works, and those of us not so blessed can share what isn't working.

 

• Juice

You miserable son of a bitch. I don't think it'd be crazy in the least. It's a significant buff, and given that we're weak in pvp, it's appropriate.

Too much might be making it a fear and stun immunity too.


Link to my other comment item: WoW Forums -> 2.4 rumored patch notes.
Text "The only shaman change I have seen mentioned was about making SR a physical buff and freeing shaman from impairments. In that post the blue said that was only a potential change that was being tested out internally. "

This is not official information, it's just WoW Forums chatter. It may be bullshit. But I mentioned it, so that's the source where I saw it.

 

Azaranth

SR freeing you from roots/snares when you use it would be fine.
SR Giving you BOF for 30 seconds would be horrendously OP. We're already a casters worst nightmare in melee, giving us snare immunity would be a death sentence to anything in cloth.

I'd rather SR not be made our solution to being kited. How many eggs do you want to put in one basket? SR is our solution to getting Focus Fired, and it's our solution when OOM. If you also make it our kite solution, the odds of getting the most out of that ability on each use are pretty small. I'd rather ghost wolf get a feral charge or something.

Anyway, I'd prefer this thread be about using what we've got, not day dreaming about possible buffs. I like the discussion about frostbrand. I didn't even think about keeping a set (probably my PVE weapons) around with FB enchanted on them. It's not a bad idea for when you're chasing that resto druid, and you're fighting to keep him in range. It never hurts to have it as an option anyway....

 

Rounced

Sorry, didn't realize that it was a PPM buff. I've only been leveling a shaman alt for a little while now and she is only 64 so I've only just started to think about the best ways to Arena/BG with her.

I read the first post of the thread you cited a few times already but it has no information on Frostbrand or it being a PPM mechanic. That entire thread is 101 pages long so I haven't yet been able to assimilate everything contained in the thread yet so I apologize for my error.

I think the whole concept of having another weapon buffed with frostbrand is more about being able to save your shock cooldown for a heal and not using the GCD on a earthbind totem so it can be saved to purge a HoT or Shield as needed. I really don't know yet and that's why I was asking.

 

Perwira

I think this pretty much sums up the talk about frostbrand. In shorter terms: Don't do it. An enhancement shaman already has the capability to slow and it's not worth the signifigant decrease in damage.


What's wrong with windfury? I find it very class defining and downright explosive. Rockbiter as it is right now is more "skill" based as it is proc-less already. Maybe I am being a stick in the mud, but I can't see how a weapon enchant is going to be game breaking. As far as new proposals are concerned I would think that it would come from GW or SR, maybe another totem or ability or something...but in pvp discussion I think it's more important to think about what we already have instead of trying to think about creating new stuff.


This is my last comment ever on DW to 2-hand....tests have been done, and it's not on a spreadsheet. It's the arena scores of top arena shamans. Push, Nidaime, Tsalrioth, Mauro, and Diivide (and many others) have posted the highest arena scores by enhancement shaman and without a doubt the highest arena scores are posted by DWers. The reasons have been posted 1000s of times and if you wish to stay "old school" good on you, but DW will make you a better pvp shaman.


Thank you, glad you liked the link. You sure are right about that dang list. /facepalm...I received sooo many more replies to that than I ever wanted to. As far as more or less CC or anti-CC or whatnot needed, I don't really think that any of it is need, especially more CC...wow has enough already. An anti-CC would be kinda neato, but again I think in pvp discussion too much emphasis is placed on what we need or don't need instead of what we have and what we can do with it.

A team like the one push uses has CC galore, it's up to the enhance shammy to bring his own strengths to the team. If you are being CC to much, have a pally BoF you or a priest dispel you. Maybe you should have used a tremor or grouding totem? Maybe you should have saved an ES for the CC. The answer is out there already, it's just picking a smart team make up and everyone playing to each other's strenghts.

Staying aggressive is what your team needs to play as. Push talks about controlling the fight...if you stay aggressive you make the other team/player do what you want them to do. Remember the GW also prevents a rogue's sap so that is also something to think about when starting a fight.



That link was from my guide on the wow forums, no need to blow up on celetroll. I admit it is a rather terrible video but I just wanted to put something up cause I couldn't find anything. I suggest Diivide's or Zagine's videos if you want something better.


-Yeah, I pretty much agree with you on the warrior. I don't know about 100% of the time though, but getting away from the disarm is a bloody brilliant idea. As far as slipping in a heal, it is important to time it. Obviously if you get a heal while MS'd it's a waste. You're already 1/2 of lousy heal to begin with, but if you can warstomp with 1 sec left of a MS on you and slip a quick heal in, it can be all you need.

-I think it's pretty obvious you would only use a shield on a ret pally. If you are using a shield on a holy pally, you're in the wrong place.

-Water shield is going to be amazing, it is definately worth keeping up.

 

Griff

Nothing is wrong with windfury. Rockbiter isnt skill based atall. And i wasnt suggesting it. I was just using it as an example to put my opinion across. If we were to get something to improve us, i personally would prefer it if it would be something that requires skill to be used well as opposed to a chance on hit ability.

And yes i am fully aware about the tests being the arena scores. As i siad i wasnt with it, i wasnt thinking logically because i am ill.