I've been solo queueing BG's lately to work on some honor gear. What I've run into (on Bloodlust at least) was that the most profitable BG to run, which on honor weekends is the honor BG, or the daily, was completely dominated by premades. I queue for other BG's at the same time (AV w/1 hour queue, then one other). I hop out of the main BG more often than not. It's just not worth my time grinding against a premade when we'll probably lose anyway when I could hop into a new BG and get a new roll of the dice and hope for a fun game where I won't get rolled.
I know this game isn't supposed to be fair, but it's just completely unfun to get destroyed by a well organized group when you're with a pug who has no way to communicate besides chat and just by looking at your opponents the gear discrepancy is huge.
Now I know I know, most premades aren't like what I've wrote - hell I've beaten premades with a pug often enough. But I'm still left with the feeling that to beat the system I have to make my own premade, which just contributes to the problem. So what I'm wondering is, what are some ideas to fix this? The most obvious is to make it so premades fight other premades. It kinda goes against the point of forming the premade (for most people) which is honor gained per hour, but at this point I don't give a shit. If I want good competition I'll make a premade - but I don't always want to make a premade, I just want to get my daily done and move on with life.
Punishing people for organizing is not the way to go. Organized, effective groups are what should give the best honor/hr ratio...but they should also only play other groups. Right now this is broken, because the best honor/hr is smashing pugs and avoiding other groups as much as possible.
Anyway this is rehashed in at least one other thread here a lot, but the basic point is that BGs need to be structured in such a way that competitive groups fighting other groups is the best honor per hour, that pug vs pug is decent honor, and that pugs never face organized groups.
Punishing people for organizing is not the way to go. Organized, effective groups are what should give the best honor/hr ratio...but they should also only play other groups. Right now this is broken, because the best honor/hr is smashing pugs and avoiding other groups as much as possible.
Anyway this is rehashed in at least one other thread here a lot, but the basic point is that BGs need to be structured in such a way that competitive groups fighting other groups is the best honor per hour, that pug vs pug is decent honor, and that pugs never face organized groups.
I've considered how to make premade vs premade best honor/hour, but I dismissed it after too much thought. On the current system it rewards a quick game, but any good group vs good group will probably result in a longer game anyhow because of strong defensive play. I think they will have to add new objectives or honor gains in the systems like massive honor for playing defensive. But what the heck can they add that won't just encourage groups to slowroll people for more honor?
Problem is that premades are punished for playing long games and rewarded for playing short ones. There isn't really much else to discuss.
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Problem is that premades are punished for playing long games and rewarded for playing short ones. There isn't really much else to discuss.
Actually that's not the whole problem. Here's the way I see it:
1.) Everyone is punished for playing long, close games. I'm not really sure where it got started that this only happens in premades. 50 minutes WSG's, 2000-1800 AB's, etc. are very common in pug vs. pug matches too.
2.) Premades can ever play against pugs. This is never fun for anyone. I don't really care if it's the best honor per hour; it shouldn't happen in a game that is meant to be fun.
As people above me have said, the majority of the honour comes from the game itself and not the act of killing the opposition (if that makes sense). Once the DR on HKs is removed, there will be a much greater incentive to actually kill the opposition. Therefore, it may (I suspect it will) mean that you will get more honour from a closely contested premade v premade than you would get from simply steamrolling a pug in 6 mins. Therefore, once 2.4 comes in the point is moot and premades may queue jump until they find another premade.
Of course it depends on how often you get put on stables duty - but i think any discussion of premades needs to be considered with the new patch in mind.
I agree that 2.4 will make a big change and we'll have to wait and see whether long close games compete in honor/hour.
It seems that the matching system penalizes full premades. I've been wondering whether the best honor per hour is 5-10 "premade" so you're working well together but not facing a full premade on the other side. I'm not sure how smart the matching system is, though. Does it put 10pre+5pug with the same on the other side?
As people above me have said, the majority of the honour comes from the game itself and not the act of killing the opposition (if that makes sense). Once the DR on HKs is removed, there will be a much greater incentive to actually kill the opposition. Therefore, it may (I suspect it will) mean that you will get more honour from a closely contested premade v premade than you would get from simply steamrolling a pug in 6 mins. Therefore, once 2.4 comes in the point is moot and premades may queue jump until they find another premade.
Of course it depends on how often you get put on stables duty - but i think any discussion of premades needs to be considered with the new patch in mind.
Honor from killing people could just mean graveyard camping will move from a fun end to a game to the sole purpose of the game.
20 honor per kill *15 people * 30 second rez /15 attackers = 40 honor a minute or 2400 honor an hour until you hit 25 kills on the opposition. For premade AB versus AB I can see teams leaving stables/farm uncapped then aoe camping the opponents graveyard to farm maximise honor.
Also more people are murdered in a premade versus pug than in premade versus premade. I remember one LM fight lasting 5 minutes after engagement before either side capped and all the alliance lasted the whole 5 minutes.
I agree that 2.4 will make a big change and we'll have to wait and see whether long close games compete in honor/hour.
It seems that the matching system penalizes full premades. I've been wondering whether the best honor per hour is 5-10 "premade" so you're working well together but not facing a full premade on the other side. I'm not sure how smart the matching system is, though. Does it put 10pre+5pug with the same on the other side?
We don't generally have enough interest in BG groups to get a full 15 man premade, so this is usually how we roll, and we queue against a pug almost every time. We generally have to work a lot harder for the 5-cap, since we're forced to leave our own players on defense, but I think the honor per hour is probably still a bit better than a non queue-dodging premade.
As long as people think in terms of "honor per minute/hour" can there really be fun? I remember so many people writing in the chat that they do not care about the game very much. All they want is some honor for their epics. Win or loose who cares. Give me my honor and leave me alone.
I fear that things will get more worse if DR on kills get's removed. In order to get the best gear quickly you need honor quickly. Doesn't it sound logically to just focus on GY farming/camping?
A worrying trend I am seeing in AB/EoS/WSG PUGs is people saying "just let them win quick", before the game has even begun, and on checking who we are fighting it is not a premade but another pug.
These people would rather get 1 AB/EoS/WSG token quick (and then farm honor in AV) than try and attempt to get 3; ie when they have instant AB/EoS/WSG queues, a game lasting a few minutes for one token is better for them than one lasting 20 mins for 3 which would mean them missing their AV slot. A couple of these losers, one or two that may listen to them, and one or two afkers and you havn't a hope of winning regardless of whether it is a premade or not.
We are losing these BGs because of shitty attitude, no communication, and poor understanding of the BG.
One pug EoS I was in at the weekend had 8 people trying to run the flag, even after Horde controlled 4 towers and there was nowhere to take it to. Almost every AB/EoS you have people fighting on the roads when 1 or more flags down. People rarely buff during the prep period, although there is always someone asking for mage food, usually the person not buffing.
As you can tell, I'm starting to get a bit disillusioned with it all, and its not because of premades.
As long as people think in terms of "honor per minute/hour" can there really be fun? I remember so many people writing in the chat that they do not care about the game very much. All they want is some honor for their epics. Win or loose who cares. Give me my honor and leave me alone.
I fear that things will get more worse if DR on kills get's removed. In order to get the best gear quickly you need honor quickly. Doesn't it sound logically to just focus on GY farming/camping?
That is all true, but really, can you blame anyone that feels this way? Given the absurd amount of honor needed to fully gear a new character in PvP gear, that has to be predominant mindset, or you will never find yourself competitive in the arena, which is what most people care about.
I do think the new token turn-in quest is a very good step in the right direction, and with a couple of other changes, maybe things will turn into "let's have fun" rather than "let's grind honor".
I absolutely agree with you, Illidor. I really hope that Blizzard will make it easier for new chars/alts to enter competitive PvP some day. I'd rather focus on my class skills than grind for "starter" gear in the BGs for several weeks (depending on the win/loose ratio of your battlegroup and your faction). Then again isn't it Blizzard's credo that great power can only be obtained through greatest time investment? ;-)
I really wonder what will happen when fully S4 geared players start to enter the BGs? Maybe Blizzard should put a sign besides each battlemaster: Warning! Greens/Blues might face instant death! :-D
EoTS is routinely winnable by 4-cap against other PUGS and "pugmades." Provided individual combat is superior to the other side, but that is generally the point of PvP. If you lost an even-numbers, even-gear fight, why should you be rewarded for it? The other side gets a say in who wins the game as well.
Until a PUG realizes that they are facing an actual geared, organized premade, there is no excuse for giving up in EoTS. Break the team in half and go long for the other side's towers with 6+ on at least one of the nodes. 6-7-2 is probably ideal, but "1 FR 2 Belf 3 clean up" works as well.
It's by far the easiest of the BG's to organize on the spot. AB is more difficult, particularly for Alliance due to distances and WSG can be miserable - and often decided by small subsets on a given team that you have no control over. See flying druid cat, stealthers, Merciless warrior+paladin farming the middle of the field outnumbered 3-1 by squishies, etc.
And, with me on Stormstrike, AV is just depressing. We actually took IBGY in the initial rush yesterday, only to have 15 Alliance somehow fail to keep five Horde off the flag. Recap, wipe, turtle, idiots whining about not "winning by holding SH."
The pathetic thing was my baby lock, The World of Warcraft Armory, was *second* on the Alliance board. He does hit fairly hard, killed a S1 shaman in a fearlock after shaman ran around going /laugh /threaten at the little 65, but he dies just about instantly to any 70.
There is serious morale damage in Stormstrike AV at the moment, let me put it that way. I refuse to believe that all the players are actually that bad.
From a purely fun-based standpoint, the most fun I've had in BGs was premade vs. premade before cross-server BGs. WSG bragging rights meant something -- being unbeaten in several weeks/months at WSG was cool. Close BG games are still fun. Just like stomping noobs in Arena all day for 2 point wins isn't fun for anyone involved, neither is stomping unorganized PUGs -- it's just that to get the ludicrous amounts of honor you need to gear a character, it's become necessary, even moreso now that on Stormstrike the Alliance boycott AV, making pre-mades the only way to get anything done. Horde have 2.5 hour queue times most of the time.
As far as PUGs go, this might sound trite, but did you expect soloing in the MMO genre to be fun? You don't see people trying to solo raid instances, because it will fail horribly. The MM in MMORPG does stand for "massively multiplayer". Make some friends. Go do some BGs. Heck, all but the best pre-mades will just queue out when they see a group from the same server. If you get beat by a better pre-made, try to play better next time.
I'm sorry, did you just make an argument against soloing in World of Warcraft? Lol, my friend. Lol. Hopefully I don't need to overtly point out the fallaciousness of this statement.
As people above me have said, the majority of the honour comes from the game itself and not the act of killing the opposition (if that makes sense). Once the DR on HKs is removed, there will be a much greater incentive to actually kill the opposition. Therefore, it may (I suspect it will) mean that you will get more honour from a closely contested premade v premade than you would get from simply steamrolling a pug in 6 mins. Therefore, once 2.4 comes in the point is moot and premades may queue jump until they find another premade.
Of course it depends on how often you get put on stables duty - but i think any discussion of premades needs to be considered with the new patch in mind.
I doubt most premades are actually looking for good fights or the best honor per hour. They are looking for wins. If you could lose and still get more honor per hour somehow, people would still BG dodge with premades until they got a PuG so they could dominate their competition.
When you could still do AV in most battle groups with 5-10 minute queues, it was still better honor per hour than doing a preform and steam rolling PuGs, but people still did preforms with regularity and they still dodged other preforms a lot of the time. The only way to fix it is by forcing preforms to fight other preforms. It would also be helpful to have some sort of ladder system if you do that (preferably by guild) with greater honor rewards (either through reduced item cost or by giving bonus honor) to encourage people to fight other preforms. I think there's some grey area where you start trying to pit a preform of 8 against a preform of 15 and where exactly the cut-offs should be, but a ladder system would greatly improve the BG experience for many people, and Arena junkies may find themselves more willing to do BGs with a rated system in place.
The whole purpose of a pre-made aka "Roll Group" is to roll pugs. 2 years ago when I played with some people shooting for high warlord, before the day of x-server and multiple battleground queues, we would scout. One person would take the queue, if it was a pre-made, he'd afk out (before the deserter debuff) and we'd re-queue. Otherwise we'd take it for a fast win. Not only is this topic a rehash of another current thread, but if you look back two years in any individual realm forum you'll see similar complaints about Black Wing Lair geared roll groups crushing pugs on any given server.
I have said it before in the other threads on the topic, but in the off-chance that someone who matters is reading this I will say it again.
It is completely beyond me how in the MMO for the masses a situation where if you queue with less than a 2/3 group you are losing 90% of your games could have persisted for so long. How many people do BGs? Millions. If I were Blizzard I would put off new content development, arena improvements and whatnot until this is fixed. This to me is by far the most pressing issue this game is facing from a pure numbers perspective.
It used to be that if you queued with 5 good players for AB or EoTS you could win the game for your side. My 5v5 arena team has almost single-handedly 5 capped premades before. We tried to get our daily in this weekend after doing arena. Guess what? We got thrown into a game that was just vacated by a dodging premade. And of course we cannot win 5v15 when they already hold the map. Combined with a 7 minute queue we decided that this was a waste of time.
When 5 geared, skilled players who are on vent and have 1000 arena games together under their belt cannot compete in a BG then you know something is wrong. Very wrong.
The facts are simple. Unless you are the very best or very worst, any good matchmaking system should give you approximately 50% wins in the long run. Clearly this is not the case for BGs. So why is this not being fixed? They spend time trying to balance AV, but they are missing the elephant in the room.
I made the following post in the BB a week ago in response to a topic:
Originally Posted by Snowy
Yeah, I'm not really a fan of cross-server BGs either. It removed a large sense of community -- even if I run into a premade from Andorhal, who the hell are they? I might not see them again for weeks or months.
The othing thing is premades themselves. This is probably the major reason why I've lost most of my motivation to play BGs. I love BGs, and was always the guy who would queue up before raids or after raids for a few games, just to have fun. These days, it's nigh impossible, because there's the following matchups:
1) Pugging vs a pre-made: Bend over, get your free token.
2) Pre-made vs a pug: Roll them in a few minutes for your 3 tokens.
3) Pre-made vs pre-made: Generally great, but fairly rare as one team or the other flees to another BG because it's too time consuming.
4) Pugging vs a pug: This is acceptable and often I can make a difference here.
If I'm pugging, I run into #1 most of the time. If I'm on a pre-made, I run into #2 most of the time. Neither of these are anything remotely resembling pvp, it's more like a drive by shooting.
I keep hearing they're going to have rated WSG at some point, which is great, but honestly I think they need to make it so premades only face premades. There will have to be some work done to make that possible of course, and to avoid just having a mod (like for AV) that just queues you all at the exact same time, but that alone would make BGs far more enjoyable.
Hand in hand with that is to reduce the ratio of played to rewards. Bring back the 2k honor daily, IMO. Then if you're playing premade vs premade for that, you dont feel like you've wasted your time or been inefficient when you grind out a hard fought 2000-1850 win in AB. Losers honor should go up as well, at this point you need to be rewarding participation moreso than victory. You could change the daily BG quest to be "acquire 3 tokens" from a certain BG, so you're gaurenteed to get the 2k honor with 3 BGs, win or lose.
Interestingly enough, the very last sentence seems to have been implemented in a somewhat different fashion. To answer the OP's question though, premades are not ruining BG's per se, but the mindset of premades are. There's nothing inherently wrong with a premade until they dodge all other premades to finally face a hapless PUG.
One complication is the fact that you can queue with anywhere from 2 to 15 people. At how many people queueing as a group is it considered a problem, from a premade vs. pug stomping epidemic standpoint? If you want to implement a "teams vs teams ONLY" system, then what happens when you queue with 14 people instead of 15? Does that bypass the system? How about 13? 12? And so on. Where do you draw the line? And how does the line differ for WSG as opposed to the 15 man BGs?
If they made longer, close games significantly more rewarding, then that would also help deal with the problem of dodging, leaving an already started game empty for some suckers to join with no hope of winning no matter how good they are.
While getting stuck vs a premade as a pug sucks, I'm equally annoyed by how easy it is for a premade to stick me with a hopeless situation. For example, >this< match started with Agonar and I popping in with the alliance already overrunning the Horde flag room. This was rather interesting because I was somehow the BG leader, which indicates to me some premade abandoned this match en masse. Now, in this case we beat the scrubs senseless and moved on with our lives, but it would've sucked HARD if I was solo queueing.
I will not be saddened if queue-jumping goes the way of the dodo.
It's odd that people mention queue dodging when the OP never even complained about it. It seems to me, he went up against a few premades today, got pissed, and came in here to rant about it. Premades ruining BGs? Premades are the only time I ever have any remote sense of fun while doing BGs. My idea of fun isn't gathering up 9 random people all wearing their Headless Horseman's Helm and Warchief's Mantle and hope to god we can ninja a win out of this. Maybe horde PUGs are fun, I dont know, but for me, the only thing that makes BGs bearable is a premade.
A worrying trend I am seeing in AB/EoS/WSG PUGs is people saying "just let them win quick", before the game has even begun, and on checking who we are fighting it is not a premade but another pug.
These people would rather get 1 AB/EoS/WSG token quick (and then farm honor in AV) than try and attempt to get 3; ie when they have instant AB/EoS/WSG queues, a game lasting a few minutes for one token is better for them than one lasting 20 mins for 3 which would mean them missing their AV slot. A couple of these losers, one or two that may listen to them, and one or two afkers and you havn't a hope of winning regardless of whether it is a premade or not.
We are losing these BGs because of shitty attitude, no communication, and poor understanding of the BG.
One pug EoS I was in at the weekend had 8 people trying to run the flag, even after Horde controlled 4 towers and there was nowhere to take it to. Almost every AB/EoS you have people fighting on the roads when 1 or more flags down. People rarely buff during the prep period, although there is always someone asking for mage food, usually the person not buffing.
As you can tell, I'm starting to get a bit disillusioned with it all, and its not because of premades.
Remove the reagent for greater buffs during the prep period and i'll happily buff random pugs.
02/10/08, 6:42 PM
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