Of Arena and Fair Play - Page 2

Herrera · 02/19/08, 8:25 AM

Originally Posted by Loob

Again, this is not necessarily true. I was unaware that addons were used for this exploit until I read this post. Prior to that, I simply assumed that the exploiters were sitting on ventrillo (or some other comm system), and if they received the arena prompt at exactly the same time, they would enter the arena. If the prompts were not synchronised, they simply do not enter. Obviously this is a less 'foolproof' method of ensuring you meet your friends than actually knowing the arena number, but on a small battlegroup such as mine, this method would work.

Last night I encountered 7 empty arenas in a row, and out of 15 times queued, we only got 4/5 actual games. Dont tell me its a 'good thing' that people can do this and completely waste my time. Prior to this change it was certainly very annoying to lose a game because of a disconnect, but that was not nearly as much of a problem as the rampant exploitation taking place at the moment. I actually think there is a huge amount of ignorance over this issue. On my thread on the EU pvp forum, there have been several replies from people who have encountered empty arenas but simply didnt know why it was happening. They were shocked to find out the reason behind it from my post.

Don't get me wrong, but, what if the team that was queing had one of the players disconnected 7 times in a row? Maybe frequent disconnects? I'm just saying that proving this is quite difficult and I'm not talking about meeting the team who you have set to meet, but just not queing cos you don't like the map. Removing the instance information would solve this problem, but I guess it's hard for the client not to know which instance ID the button click would take you?
Also, do you have any information what is the average wait time for 5v5 accross all battlegroups? I know it's instant on most of them, so it isn't a big time waste, for most, and if there are many low pop battlegroups, Blizz can just merge them.
Tell me what's more frustrating finding an empty arena and requing or playing 10 straight matches for 2 points and losing the next two for -26 because of a disconnect.

Loob · 02/19/08, 8:41 AM

Originally Posted by Herrera

Don't get me wrong, but, what if the team that was queing had one of the players disconnected 7 times in a row? Maybe frequent disconnects? I'm just saying that proving this is quite difficult and I'm not talking about meeting the team who you have set to meet, but just not queing cos you don't like the map. Removing the instance information would solve this problem, but I guess it's hard for the client not to know which instance ID the button click would take you?
Also, do you have any information what is the average wait time for 5v5 accross all battlegroups? I know it's instant on most of them, so it isn't a big time waste, for most, and if there are many low pop battlegroups, Blizz can just merge them.
Tell me what's more frustrating finding an empty arena and requing or playing 10 straight matches for 2 points and losing the next two for -26 because of a disconnect.

Well, if someone is having frequent disconnects, is it fair to penalise the opposition by effectively wasting their time, by continually requeuing and leaving the queue? Even if it is only the time spent in the buff zone? 5v5 queues on my battlegroup are quite high, and of course this is a problem in itself, but if people keep leaving the queue, even for legitimate reasons, they are still wasting someone else's time by not actually joining. However, Im of the opinion that penalising the odd disconnect is a more appropriate way to deal with these matters than to leave the door wide open for exploiters to run rampant on low population battlegroups. So, in that sense, I preferred the old method where sure we lose the odd game due to a disconnect, but where I didnt have to spend 30-40% of my game time in a perpetual state of frustration at the lack of opposition due to exploitation.

I agree that map information should be completely unavailable prior to your points being 'on the table', but saying that 'its ok for most' due to low queue times in most battlegroups simply does not help those who do not have that priviledge. For many, transfering to a low queue realm isnt an option if they are stuck on a pve realm, but again that's a side issue.

And a GM investigating exploitation in these situations would see very clearly if a team is actually exploiting. Sure, one could say 'I disconnected every single time, except against this one specific team' but in fairness that isn't going to hold much water is it if we are talking about 50/60 games where they didnt enter and 10 games, all against the same team, where they did? The pattern will be obvious to the impartial observer.

I suppose its about finding the happy medium between building barriers against exploitation and not punishing the innocent. I would be delighted to hear other people's ideas on this.

Herrera · 02/19/08, 8:51 AM

Originally Posted by Loob

but if people keep leaving the queue, even for legitimate reasons, they are still wasting someone else's time by not actually joining.

This should not be punishable for obvious reasons, even you should support it.

Originally Posted by Loob

I agree that map information should be completely unavailable prior to your points being 'on the table', but saying that 'its ok for most' due to low queue times in most battlegroups simply does not help those who do not have that priviledge. For many, transfering to a low queue realm isnt an option if they are stuck on a pve realm, but again that's a side issue.

I couldn't agree more. Removing the information strikes at the very base of this problem and solves any form of possible exploitation. However hard, this is where the devs should start working on the problem.

Originally Posted by Loob

And a GM investigating exploitation in these situations would see very clearly if a team is actually exploiting. Sure, one could say 'I disconnected every single time, except against this one specific team' but in fairness that isn't going to hold much water is it if we are talking about 50/60 games where they didnt enter and 10 games, all against the same team, where they did? The pattern will be obvious to the impartial observer.

I stated in my post already, I am against this and any form of pre-determined matches, even when playing at 4am. This has been punished previously, I know many teams banned for doing this at the start of the season3.

Loob · 02/19/08, 9:44 AM

Originally Posted by Herrera

This should not be punishable for obvious reasons, even you should support it.

Well of course I do, and I suffered many (five or six times I suppose) annoying points losses in season 1 as a direct result of player disconnects. However I am trying to make the point that its not simply the team who suffers the disconnect who pays the price, it is also the team who have been waiting for a game and who dont get one, making their time in the queue and in the buff point a total waste. There simply must be a happy medium here where one is not punished severely for a disconnect, and where exploiting is next to impossible.

The first step is of course to hide arena map and ID before the player clicks 'enter arena' (if possible). The next step is not so clear but something must be done about battlegroups that are less populated where even hiding the ID of the arena will not deter this activity. People are happy to sit on ventrillo to see if they get the game pop at the same time, and then decide to enter, so hiding the arena info would not deter or prevent this activity. An addon which reveals arena ID info is not a necessity for this exploit - it just makes it easier.

Obviously, making every battlegroup perfectly balanced is the number one way to minimise the ability to use this exploit, however Blizzard have suggested that changes to Battlegroups are a sort of 'last resort' due to the logistical problems involved. So an in-game 'fix' seems necessary. And again, I must emphasise its not a small problem for those in certain battlegroups. Ill repeat, last night out of 15 queues in 2v2, I got 4/5 actual games and in one case I had 7 empty arenas in a row. And this is a regular occurence, not a one off.

Herrera · 02/19/08, 10:02 AM

Well, if they can't fix the instance ID hiding then I guess something like the following would be fair enough:

- If a que pops every player is autojoined in the arena instantly (or after a very short time like 3-5 sec).
- If a game starts 4v5 (or 1v2, 2v3) due to disconnect, game ends Draw immediately after gates open.

I just pulled this out of my arse in 2 sec, at first glance, I don't see a straightforward possible way of exploiting. I know instant autojoin can be annoying, but it's not like you're in the middle of a raid boss encounter when queued for arena.

Overhead · 02/19/08, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Herrera

Well, if they can't fix the instance ID hiding then I guess something like the following would be fair enough:

- If a que pops every player is autojoined in the arena instantly (or after a very short time like 3-5 sec).
- If a game starts 4v5 (or 1v2, 2v3) due to disconnect, game ends Draw immediately after gates open.

I just pulled this out of my arse in 2 sec, at first glance, I don't see a straightforward possible way of exploiting. I know instant autojoin can be annoying, but it's not like you're in the middle of a raid boss encounter when queued for arena.

If you're not penalized for DCing after entering, then people will just DC if they get pulled into a different arena then their friend or if the queues don't pop simultaneously.

Zure · 02/19/08, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by Herrera

Well, if they can't fix the instance ID hiding then I guess something like the following would be fair enough:

- If a que pops every player is autojoined in the arena instantly (or after a very short time like 3-5 sec).
- If a game starts 4v5 (or 1v2, 2v3) due to disconnect, game ends Draw immediately after gates open.

I just pulled this out of my arse in 2 sec, at first glance, I don't see a straightforward possible way of exploiting. I know instant autojoin can be annoying, but it's not like you're in the middle of a raid boss encounter when queued for arena.

Teams would simply exploit by having one player unplug his or her internet connection if the opponents were not those desired.

There's basically no way to prevent this kind of exploitation without:
A) re-instating queue dropping penalties, as the free lunch here distorts the system. You should have to ante up your arena points before receiving information about who you are playing, even if that information is simply the timestamp of when your queue popped.

or B) Putting in place measures that obscure the subtle information already conveyed by the arena system.
1) Eliminate the hidden notice of which arena one is about to enter picked up by DBM
2) Make queue pops occur over a random 10-15 second interval, so that teams cannot rely on both receiving a queue at once as evidence that they should enter. Else, people will hang out on vent and only join when they each receive a queue at the same moment.
3) Hide the number of opponents one is facing until the match begins. Else, people will have their farmed team enter first and only tell the others to enter if there are no opponents with a few second left on the match timer.

I'd favor A for simplicity's sake. I'm not exactly who is helped by not taking points if no one enters. If a player suffers a DC before the queue pops, you can leave queue. If she suffers it after the queue pops, one of your team mates has probably already clicked Accept.

Celnathor · 02/19/08, 12:19 PM

There's a pretty simple, fair solution to this in my mind:

Set a certain fraction of games queued for(Say 10%, could be tweaked) where if someone DC's/queue is dropped in fewer than that number of games, the team is not penalized. If the fraction of games dropped goes above this number, the team begins taking large penalties. This would have to be based on a fraction of recent games(as opposed to total games) as well, to prevent a team from running some absurd number of games early on just to pad their total game to give them headroom.

This should address the most flagrant win-trading, or the dodging of certain maps a team doesn't like. Obviously it doesn't totally fix the 4AM win-trading scenario, but it would be a step in the right direction.

10% is an arbitrary number and could be adjusted upwards or downwards, but I think it's a good starting point:

-If a team has a member D/C'ing in >10% of games, they really need to get their ISP checked out anyways. This shouldn't be a problem for most teams with normal ISP's.
-A team trying to dodge a map obviously will have to drop queue in over 10% of games.

Yes, a team has the ability to milk that 10% and hence it's not perfect, but it's not really wise to push close to it, if you're a disconnect or two away from being penalized. It ought to keep the most flagrant abuses down.

Herrera · 02/19/08, 1:46 PM

Originally Posted by Zure

Teams would simply exploit by having one player unplug his or her internet connection if the opponents were not those desired.

Not possible. The Scoreboard would still show 5v5 even if someone DC-d.

Mordinm · 02/19/08, 5:57 PM

I sympathize with those people who lose games because of disconnects but is this really such a big problem that Blizzard should leave open huge exploitable holes in the arena system. If you are disconnecting that much the proper solution involves fixing the disconnect problem, not adapting the queuing system to deal with it. There are solutions to disconnecting issue. There must be because the vast majority of the wow player base does not randomly lose their connection to the server.

Keep in mind that if a player on your team disconnects before the queue pops you can leave queue and no harm is done. So you really only get screwed out of points if someone loses their connection after the queue pops.

I am no expert on computer programming but I doubt very much that Blizzard could in any way tell the difference between an induced disconnect and an uncontrollable disconnect. If that is the case trying to “fix” the system to stop points loss for a disconnect will always be exploitable.

Celnathor · 02/19/08, 7:35 PM

Originally Posted by Mordinm

I am no expert on computer programming but I doubt very much that Blizzard could in any way tell the difference between an induced disconnect and an uncontrollable disconnect. If that is the case trying to “fix” the system to stop points loss for a disconnect will always be exploitable.

See my suggestion above - no need to do anything overly complicated, just track the number of times a team has a queue "pop", but does not start the game. If that's over a certain fraction(a very arbitrary 10% in my above post, could be adjusted up or down as appropriate) of the team's total games, they either are penalized, or the games start counting as losses for them.

It's not perfect, but it allows for the occasional ISP hiccup or "oops I just realized I'm in my tanking gear and my PvP gear is in the bank" moment, while still curtailing flagrant abuses.

Acustar · 02/20/08, 2:35 AM

Just tossing this out there but DBM isn't the only mod that does this. My G15s mini-screen will pick up what arena we've queued to when it pops. Obviously just making this information invisible would take away the ability for all mods to pick it up.

Discombobulator · 02/20/08, 7:51 AM

Originally Posted by Celnathor

See my suggestion above - no need to do anything overly complicated, just track the number of times a team has a queue "pop", but does not start the game. If that's over a certain fraction(a very arbitrary 10% in my above post, could be adjusted up or down as appropriate) of the team's total games, they either are penalized, or the games start counting as losses for them.

It's not perfect, but it allows for the occasional ISP hiccup or "oops I just realized I'm in my tanking gear and my PvP gear is in the bank" moment, while still curtailing flagrant abuses.

On every given monday night I get thoose 2 times out of ten. On a high pop server the situation is even worse, as you have to waddle thru thoose kinda ppl. and powerlevellers/pointsellers around 1500 and up. The abuse is really apparent but the solution wont be easy unfortunately.

Phweedo · 02/20/08, 1:32 PM

Well first like everyone else said the instance info should NOT be available for several reasons.

1: it would handicap this exploit
and
2: teams should be be able to skip maps they aren't maximized for. This is just the same as being able to tell what classes you are about to play, before the game starts. It's an exploit and should not be allowed. Arena is about being better at your class spec/combo than your opposition and being able to adapt and win. Not skipping a map or team because you might loose.

Secondly, they should penalize teams that don't join arenas. Your partner keeps disconnecting?? Too bad. That's not the fault of the team you just made wait 8 minutes for an empty arena. Get some better internet maybe

Ya sure it's a bitch when it happens to you, but so is life. In the next patch if you get glitched out of an arena map (fear, scattershot, blind etc) and fall through the floor, you will be killed. Is that fair? No, especially since it was the other team that bugged you out threw the map (at least in 99% of the cases it is).. but once again that's life.

If your team member is disconnecting 7..8 matches in a row/night.. then chances are you aren't going to be sitting at a 2.1k rating anyways so what's the big deal?

Spiero · 02/20/08, 1:49 PM

The notes I saw stated that if you fell through the arena/get feared through a wall you get teleported to the center of the arena, not killed.