Serpents swiftness? Since when did all Hunters have this in their Drain specs? You are using the weakest arena spec as evidence that Hunters are equal to Rogues for pushback? Not to mention you simply glanced over the pushback issues Hunters face themselves with Steady Shot. Your argument would be similar to complaining about Mages nuking/icelancing to cause pushback. As a Hunter, when someone is nuking/attacking you back you do not use steady shot unless you want to have all of your damage pushed back like crazy. I hate to be the one to inform you of this, but Hunters are not the pushback monsters you are making them out to be.

I never said they were equal, I stated rogues and hunters are two of the worst offenders of the pushback mechanic. I glanced over that fact that hunters also suffer from it because the majority of the caster pushback via a hunter comes from the pets with a 1.2 attack speed, not the other two factors. The talent and other two abilities just exacerbate the problem.

I wouldn't say push back is what is causing the problems with shaman/paladins in low bracket play. I'd say that them subjecting themselves to spell interrupts virtually every point of healing they do, as well as having CC duration + 1.5 seconds before healing. As mentioned above, basically everyone has a way to interrupt a spell cast.

Mobility is mentioned as an important quality, shaman and paladins are worse off in this respect (of healers) since they have to stop moving to heal.

Yes but warlocks exist outside the 5s bracket, and without paladin team mates.

I still can't see a good argument for reducing pushback, except perhaps for pets. It's an important mechanic, and removing it would require casters to be completely rebalanced.

I didn't post this to further buff warlocks, since really, all it would do is force melee to be quicker on the interrupts for fear. Most top arena players in the 2200+ bracket are on top of that in a split second, regardless of pushback. Moreover, warlocks and druids are the two caster classes least affected by spell-pushback. Is it merely a coincidence that the two caster classes who rely largely on instant casts are also the strongest in arenas?

Pushback cripples a mage, limited an elemental shaman's dps to shocks (before their PvP glove change), reduces mind flay ticks to one, etc. Yes, nerfing the spell-pushback mechanic may allow these classes to do some scary burst damage, but I don't see the problem with that since these are already some of the least represented classes/specs across the brackets. Even if spell pushback were completely removed instead of some lesser nerf, I wouldn't foresee mages chain-casting frostbolt while melee are beating on him. Avoiding damage by kiting would remain a priority.

My personal favorite aspect of the spell pushback from pets is the change to the pet AI so they now path behind me. Add that to the insult that is the void star talisman giving warlock pets what- 900 spell resistance, and if a pet is on you just be happy casting counterspell every twenty seconds and getting off a fire blast every now and then. Add to that the fact that the only protection to pushback is ice barrier which is either consciously dispelled the moment you cast it or incidentally dispelled by the 1700 arcane shot you are eating, and it is GG. I also find it quite amusing that Blizzard recognizes this is an issue, and is adding pushback protection to icy veins- an 11 point talent which is, of course, dispellable.

Between the dispels and pushback, mage pvp is loads of fun. Before I quit arena, it was not uncommon for one of my most frequently cast spells in arena to be a rank 1 armor. Good times.

With feral charge, earth shock, charge and intercept, fear, howl of terror, curse of tongues, silencing shot, mace stuns, counterspell, silence, garotte, cyclone, kidney shot, cheap shot, spell-lock, not to mention focus fire (and others I am missing), somehow it seems like there are plenty of additional ways to shut down mage dps other than putting a pet on them and having a snack.

Edit- How could I forget LOS pillar-humping?

Instant casts are powerful because of mobility and LoS, not a lack of pushback. Look at pallies. No pushback but still horribly gimped in lower brackets.

Pushback prevents casters from chain casting, it doesn't cripple them. It's an important part of the game, being able to get those windows where you can cast enough to burst someone down. If casting was a mindless thing that you could do on a whim, as long as you had a healer behind you ready to spam you, then it'd take a lot of the skill and co-ordination out of the game. You'd just say "Burst X" and casters would turn around and burst X. That's a bit of an oversimplification, but the point I'm trying to make is that it would dumb down the game a lot.

Pushback is a huge problem for Hunters currently. Steady Shot is a large portion of every Hunter's damage in arena, but when a melee class is on us, it's virtually impossible to get one off in under twice its normal cast time, especially if our target happens to be moving towards us. Getting an Aimed Shot off with any melee class on us is out of the question.

The question is whether removing this issue will leave Hunters imbalanced as a result. I don't think 100% pushback resistance is fair, maybe 50%, or 70%; Hunters can't benefit from the pushback resistance offered by Concentration Aura or Earth Shield anyways (helps with spells, not with "shots," granted "shots" can't be kicked).

Edit: I'm also uncertain as to whether simply adding a blanket pushback resistance to the game is the best method; the balancing pushback offers per class varies greatly, so giving it to select classes in select talent trees is likely a better solution (or as set bonuses).

Sorry, I did not mean to imply that spell pushback is the reason instant casts are so powerful. But it's the reason that instant casts become the only option when focused (for certain classes). The point of my earlier post was to simply note that for warlocks and druids, their instant casts are already their best options, so having to "resort" to them doesn't hurt their ability to contribute in an arena. And the classes whose DPS is hurt the most by pushback just so happen to be the least represented classes in arenas.

That's quite the oversimplification. And even assuming arguendo that it isn't, I fail to see how coordinated bursts with timed CC's on healers is dumbing the game down from the current meta-game which allows for warrior tunnel-vision, focusing and applying MS on a squishy target till his healers run dry. Welcome to the strength of warrior + double healer in 3v3. I'm sure it takes a lot of skill to succeed with it.

Secondly, if a team can coordinate bursts with 2.5 second frostbolts/shadowbolts, that's insinuating a lot of ineptitude from your opposing team. They could easily disrupt that burst with interrupts, CC's, stepping out of LoS, or simply quick heals (or pain suppression). And in any case, the class that's most vulnerable to caster burst is the warrior, which is how 4 DPS teams in S1 and S2 excelled (and shadowpriest/aff warlock in 2v2 and 3v3). A check on warrior dominance is a plus in my eyes. A skilled and cognizant warrior can still play defensive against such a caster-oriented team, which most have learned to do since S2.

Once again, not all Hunters have Serpents swiftness or pets with 1.2 attack speeds. They can also be dealt with in any number of ways.

Druids are average at best in 3's and about tied for last place in 5's. Warlocks are average in both 3's and 5's. I fail to see how they are the strongest for arenas when it is only in 2v2 that they are dominant.




There are a number of other points I wanted to cover from other people, but at this point there is so much hyperbole being thrown around in this thread I do not see any way for a legitimate discussion of mechanics to take place.

The data shows otherwise:
Vhairi's Scratchpad

I know that this post is generally for discussion of mechanics, and what not, but I find your assumption to be pretty lacking.

If you were to give each class a radius, in which they can negatively effect other players, you'll find the melee have a much smaller radius.

I actually feel this is a caster oriented game, most spells just always hit the mark. Frostbolt for instance, has a large radius, (in comparison to melee), AND it is much like a heat seeking missile that will find it's target once the spellcast time has been met. (even when lag interferes *after a successful cast*)

In addition melee have the largest hurdle to overcome , because of our small radius, with online gaming, and ping.

Yes I can understand what your goal is for starting a thread like this, but can you toss out the self pity. Melee begin with a disadvantage.

Druids are the most represented class at the highest rating on that chart in 3s, and in 5s Druids are again extremely strong. It's not even an arguable fact, really. Experience at high rating tells you a lot more than those charts do

Druids are really absurdly powerful atm, easily the most powerful class in the game and by far the most deserving of a nerf

But is it the druid class alone? What about warriors? They do dominate almost every bracket as well. Granted, 3vs3 is dominated by PMR by far, yet, WRD is already very close to PMR. Melee classes are very strong in arena. And the druid class is the best anti-melee healer imho. But how to nerf either the druid or the warrior? I don't know. Because even a small nerf might result in a new cookie cutter setup.

But back to topic. I'd say, yeah, either remove pushback or lower the amount of pushback. There are already tons of special abilities to stop a caster from casting, both close combat and ranged combat. Yet there are no abilities to counter melee attacks. Coming from Guild Wars I always found this very annyoing. Because in Guild Wars it is very possible to counter high damage melee attacks. Since there are no anti-melee counter spells I'd say it would be fair enough if caster weren't affected by pushback anymore.

I'm sorry, but the data only supports Druids doing decently in one rating level across the board for 3v3 and 5v5. What is the rest of the data? Inconsequential? Not when that data shows us that the majority of the Druid player base is averaging 2nd to last place for 5v5 and running in the middle of the pack for 3v3. I remember these exact same arguments when Hunter buffs were being discussed and the few doing well at higher ratings were being used as an excuse by numerous people to try and keep them from getting anything. If we held all classes to that standard, Hunters would have never seen a single buff, and the few Enhance Shamans and Ret Paladins making gladiator would have also been used as legitimate proof that both classes were fine. Might I also remind everyone that Blizzard flat out refused to nerf both Warlocks and Warriors despite their absolute domination of 2v2 and 3v3 for Seasons 1 and 2 (and of course Warriors dominated 5's as well).

In any event Druids are seeing nerfs, so that particular point about how Druids "deserve" them is moot (though I see you're a Warlock and I'm sure you never felt your class was deserving of nerfs despite ruling both S1 and 2). You should also understand that "normalization" is nothing more than a glorified supply/demand curve, while the first graph shows their actual standings. If Druid's deserve nerfs it is to their strength in 2v2, but they also deserve buffs for 5v5, and a single team that was used in Europe (but has not had much, if any success in the US) is not grounds to begin claiming everything is wonderful. I do find it amusing, though, that I am being attacked someone who plays a class that I was just defending against claims of being "overpowered," and is equally powerful in 3v3, more powerful in 5v5, and has been sitting at the top of 2v2 since day 1.


This propensity towards scenarios built on abilities or situations that are not realistic, as well as drawing comparisons while leaving things out or flat out ignoring data (whether purposefully or not) is precisely why I do not believe we are making any head way on either side of the argument. Creating arguments with Hyperbole is not helping anything.

I was gonna reply point by point, but you are just gonna have to trust me or get some experience at high rating. This is coming from a class that gets carried by Druids in 3s and is starting to have to rely on Druids in 5s as well. The Euro comp has had way way more than 'not much' success in the US. You just aren't paying attention

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this (how does this make the data irrelevent? If there's a high demand for Druids, there must be a reason why), but even assuming the second graph is incorrect:

Druids are the most represented class in 2v2;
Druids are the third most represented class in 3v3;
Druids are the fifth most represented class in 5v5;

I believe that the apparent dominance of classes who can rely on instant casts is important to understand and accept to understand the disadvantage classes that cast are at, and therefore the effect that pushback has on those classes.

Back to the topic of spell push back in general, just imagine a class and spec such as myself(warlock common SL/SL build) and completely removing spell push back.

I am not a high end arena player or particularly experienced, but I can see the implications. A grossly dominating combination. I think the general solution should be give those classes that do not have *any* passive spell push back talents a way to mitigate at least *some* push back. It doesn't have to be a huge percentage but enough to at least keep certain classes from being completely locked down by 1 mechanic that in itself takes no particular or demanding strategy to accomplish.

That data just shows that playing a druid to their potential is extremely hard because the class can do so many things.

There are probably less druids in lower ratings because they win their games and move up to higher ratings ...

No real reason to dwell on whether druids are OP in 2v2 and 3v3 for this thread. They're not affected by spell-pushback mechanics at all in arenas, and even have 100% pushback resist on Root/Cyclone with a low-tier balance talent.