Pushback isn't really how you stop a caster from casting on you in 5v5... You use interrupts and CC to do that
Yea we recently adopted a new strat for 234X teams.
Step rogue goes on mage/warlock
and we tripple interrupt burst on the elemental shaman, silence shot, counterspell, earth shock basically do our best to not let him do anything. This acomplishes two things 1 the game ended CC that a lone paladin healer faces drops dramaticly (fear/poly interrupts) and the cast damage of the teams elemental shaman drops, if we can manage to put enough damage pressure mana burns slow/stop and eventually the team runs oom from sheer healing output. Its our paladin healing a warriors damage vs their 2 healers healing 4 dps's damage while the priest is getting sieved by stings.
...but ya what nadagast said trying to rely on pushback to stop casting will cost you the game.
On that note pushback needs to stay in now I can see caster classes having some pushback mitigation like they do now, but I know from experience that a BoPd shaman will solo kill someone on your team in 4-5 seconds if it isn't removed and interrupts are applied, and that is especially true for teams that don't have a disc priest.
I never said they were equal, I stated rogues and hunters are two of the worst offenders of the pushback mechanic. I glanced over that fact that hunters also suffer from it because the majority of the caster pushback via a hunter comes from the pets with a 1.2 attack speed, not the other two factors. The talent and other two abilities just exacerbate the problem.
Sounds like you're fighting a BM hunter with a cat or something in other words you're fighting an idiot should be free points.
My personal favorite aspect of the spell pushback from pets is the change to the pet AI so they now path behind me. Add that to the insult that is the void star talisman giving warlock pets what- 900 spell resistance, and if a pet is on you just be happy casting counterspell every twenty seconds and getting off a fire blast every now and then. Add to that the fact that the only protection to pushback is ice barrier which is either consciously dispelled the moment you cast it or incidentally dispelled by the 1700 arcane shot you are eating, and it is GG. I also find it quite amusing that Blizzard recognizes this is an issue, and is adding pushback protection to icy veins- an 11 point talent which is, of course, dispellable.
Between the dispels and pushback, mage pvp is loads of fun. Before I quit arena, it was not uncommon for one of my most frequently cast spells in arena to be a rank 1 armor. Good times.
If you're eating 1700 arcane shots you need better gear.
I have the best pvp gear in the game and I'm lucky to see an arcane shot break 1300 in the arena, Oh also arcane shot has a 20% chance to hit that 1300 usually you're seeing 600 damage.
I don't have any problem with people crying about arcane shot even though the crys are based off ignorance but you really don't need to over state the damage just to try to strengthen your arguement.
back on topic...
Frost mages like elemental shaman but to a slightly lesser degree are one of those classes that will just flat out dominate you if they get to free cast, and in 2.4 they will have a multitude of ways to stack haste to unleash a ton of damage lust, pi, veins. Also you need to remember that if you are forced to use interrupts to stop casters the teams healers go free.
I feel that only specials pushing spells back would be a wonderful idea. Although, it would be difficult to do this from a devs POV and this would be very difficult because alot of people would complain. It would be especially "ezmode" for shaman/pally's they could just stand there and heal, and that kinda takes the whole "omg im getting beat on and my 1.5 second cast is turning into a 9 second cast" out of the game, which is useful. Right now im playing a warlock, although many of my casts are instant, i still feel the burn with immolate and fears (even with gloves), i dont know how i would play if i were a pally/shaman/mage/etc...
i think its to controversial to do. SPB has been a part of the game forever, AND gcd's are getting buffed w/ haste ratings, so we'll see how that turns out in later events.
Meh, for warlocks I'm not really sure that it matters. If my fear lasts longer than 1.5 secs, it's going to be kicked/pummeled. Of course, there's probably a huge difference between trying to interrupt the 1.3 secs fear (no pushback) and ~>2 secs fear (w/ pushback) . I mostly just do 2v2s and 3v3s, though, so often I can still get some fears off with coordinated cc on the rogue/warrior.
Why not just tie spell pushback to the amount of damage being done per hit? Create a threshold below which no pushback would occur and above which pushback would occur as normal. Set the threshold at something like 5% of the casters health and you would fix the issue without removing the mechanic from the game.
If you're eating 1700 arcane shots you need better gear.
I have the best pvp gear in the game and I'm lucky to see an arcane shot break 1300 in the arena, Oh also arcane shot has a 20% chance to hit that 1300 usually you're seeing 600 damage.
My apologies, I looked at the SS of my log. It was an autoshot that hit me for 1700, which, of course, is not OP at all. I have 4/5 s3 and 10.5k hp and 400 resilience. Last week, the following happened:
XXXXXX's arcane shot crits you for 1398.
XXXXXX's autoshot crits you for 1704.
XXXXXX begins to cast multishot.
XXXXXX's multishot crits you for 2405.
Now that is what I call on command burst.
Originally Posted by Levidian
Frost mages like elemental shaman but to a slightly lesser degree are one of those classes that will just flat out dominate you if they get to free cast, and in 2.4 they will have a multitude of ways to stack haste to unleash a ton of damage lust, pi, veins. Also you need to remember that if you are forced to use interrupts to stop casters the teams healers go free.
and yes I play 5s with a frost mage.
Icy veins no longer stacks with bloodlust/heroism and remains dispellable, there are, by my count, 6 maximum (-meta gem) slots to put haste gems. There will be no such notion of the magical haste stacking mage in arena. Not only will the gems be so inconsequential that no one will use them, add to it there is no haste on the pvp gear, but we take so much physical damage and spend our whole time being focus fired that no mage can afford to gem for anything but sta and resilience.
On the other hand, what do you need to do to mitigate my damage? Put your pet on me and have a snack.
If Druid's deserve nerfs it is to their strength in 2v2, but they also deserve buffs for 5v5, and a single team that was used in Europe (but has not had much, if any success in the US) is not grounds to begin claiming everything is wonderful.
Originally Posted by Nadagast
I was gonna reply point by point, but you are just gonna have to trust me or get some experience at high rating. This is coming from a class that gets carried by Druids in 3s and is starting to have to rely on Druids in 5s as well. The Euro comp has had way way more than 'not much' success in the US. You just aren't paying attention
This. Just check out our battlegroup's ladder: the #1 team is a 3 healer team (with a druid). Team Ice runs a top 10 Eurocomp, Blood Legion has a eurocomp team, and so does Chocolate Thunder. This composition is having excellent success in the US, and will probably continue to grow as it does.
On that note pushback needs to stay in now I can see caster classes having some pushback mitigation like they do now, but I know from experience that a BoPd shaman will solo kill someone on your team in 4-5 seconds if it isn't removed and interrupts are applied, and that is especially true for teams that don't have a disc priest.
Regardless of whether spell pushback should be removed or not, this isn't very good reasoning. It's good that the game is like this currently, it somewhat prevents people from running retarded mash physical dps setups like you do. You need to have some utility to counter it.
But your team could counter it, I wish you played a real setup that actually forced you and your players to improve.
99.999% of the time, even an Ele Shaman won't solo someone in 4-5 seconds
In any event my point is that it is not a lack of pushback that causes Warlocks and Druids to dominate in 2v2, it is the ability to deal/heal damage on the run and while line of sighting. Using those two classes as an argument for pushback being too powerful is, again, hyperbole that ignores a very large portion of the mechanics of Arena.
In any event my point is that it is not a lack of pushback that causes Warlocks and Druids to dominate in 2v2, it is the ability to deal/heal damage on the run and while line of sighting. Using those two classes as an argument for pushback being too powerful is, again, hyperbole that ignores a very large portion of the mechanics of Arena.
Very well said. Strong instants + pillar running is a big advantage.
In any event my point is that it is not a lack of pushback that causes Warlocks and Druids to dominate in 2v2, it is the ability to deal/heal damage on the run and while line of sighting. Using those two classes as an argument for pushback being too powerful is, again, hyperbole that ignores a very large portion of the mechanics of Arena.
What a spectacular backtrack after facts caught up with you.
Spell pushback combined with having a non-solid body makes it extremely hard to throw anything that has a cast time in PvP. Even if you are able to get the spell through there is a pretty big chance you are faced the wrong way with them constantly running through your body.
With what I have seen from the patch notes it seems PvP will be even more the domain of melee than ever. Warriors with S4 gear will hit clothies for insane amounts and we have gotten zilch to make it easier. If anything for warlocks the nerf to lifetap will make us go down even faster against melee.
But that is the way the pendulum swings. Warlocks and Paladins shone in season one and druids in season three. I am sure melee will have some nerfs in the future too.
I might be wrong, but wasn't it the same issue before TBC? It was said that melees just scale better with gear than casters due to game mechanics. Both an increase in weapon DPS and core stats (strength, agility) contribute to a higher total DPS of a melee class. Casters, on the other hand, cannot increase their DPS by adding more +int or +willpower (funny to note that those stats actually do contribute to caster DPS in most other MMORPGs. Major flaw in WoW from the beginning?) This, however, has been discussed endless times in other threads :-)
Compared to Guild Wars I really do not like the caster mechanics. In GW one second is considered a long cast time, especially for healers. Typically you will have instants with appropriate cooldowns. I feel this adds to a more dynamic gameplay. Because spaming one spell is not possible thus you have to choose between various spells and their cooldowns. Long cast times are ok in PvE when a mob approaches you slowly in a straight line and you can slow them down or root them (Root 'n' Nuke tactics). PvP, however, is all about speed and constant mobility.
The main problem isn't the lack of offensive scaling for casters. Casters scale offensively fine, they just don't scale defensively at all, and given melee scaling, it means that a mindless 'train the cloth' assist target works very well if you spam purge the target, expecially because there is no penalty for failing.
Blowing up the warrior can be extremly useful as a tactic, but if you fail, you just fed the warrior an immense amount of rage and probably burnt a shitload of cooldowns. Putting a hunter on an ice mage, or a bunch of melees on a warlock has no real opportunity cost.
Spell pushback from a rogue/warior/enhancement shamans are annoying but i can deal with it - kite and los,
but the main problem i face is the pets - they should not be causing pushback or if they do it should be only for specials/very hard hits(over 400dmg) .
Put a pet on a frost mage and forget about him - unkitable , and unrootable pet (read felhunter/felguard) :
* the lock pets usualy get 50% frost nova resistance from talents alone (on top of the +270 resistance to spells) and the felguard can chain 2-3 hits at once
* hunter pets that just hit 1.5s default and 1.2 in case of beast hunter.
Hunter shooting me alone could be fine , i can deal with it as i will deal with anything - los or hug him temporary,
but if the pet is set on me at the same time - i just can forget about sheep even with 50% bonus from gloves.
Player pushback alone could be ok (exept pets) but no pushback resistnace plus the 3-4 other interrupts available for
most classes today is a guaranteed sign that you will not be casting anything at all.
In case of the hunters - the only way to temporary stop him from spam shooting you was nerfed with removing of the dead zone.
It was normal before, when you could two shot if you execute your kiting slows perfectly, but now with deadly throw in the picture ,
with pet + arcane+auto+multy , with intercept/hamstring/pumel/ww+heroic+auto -
one melee can pretty much lock a mage spellcast in a group situation - i.e. where the melee is getting any support in form of nova dispell or a roots on you.
My point is - the current melee favourism is because every melee class got new interrupts available while casters got almost nothing new
to stop/avoid thouse interrupts to affect them :
* Mage didnt get any new kiting skills/escaping (only dmg one , invis doesnt count as def ability) , right now rogues get way more escaping tools than mages.
* priest didnt get any new uninrerruptability / kiting / or escape tricks (only more tanking boosts)
* lock didnt get any new kiting/escaping abilities (felly intercept doesnt realy count).
Edit : for horrible grammar skills Sorry ,i am working on it. You guys from EJ moderation team are great. Thanks.
I might be wrong, but wasn't it the same issue before TBC?
No. Armor pen gear did not exist before TBC and Rogues didn't have 5 ways to get out of snares.
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Pushback is an unnecessary complication of PvE and PvP. It makes several encounters a complete pain for shadow priests, moonkins and elemental shamans and if I get an add on me in open pvp, it's game over because I won't get a cast off between the pushback and other classes' innate interrupt abilities.
Almost every class has a perfectly fine working way of locking down a casting school. Why do we need to have our casts delayed by autoattack on top of that? As many posters have already mentioned, anything that is not insta-cast is near-worthless in PvP. Melee classes have gained so much interrupt and stun abilities that I really wonder how my lone 1.4k lightning bolt is any worse than the amount of burst damage a geared up melee class pumps out. Melee range is not a limitation if there is absolutely no way to get out of it (unless you are druid of get BoF) nor to prevent the said melee from getting there.
I don't forsee them revamping the mechanic at this stage of the game but if they were one way to accomplish it would be to keep pushback but not only place limitations on how hard you would have to be hit to cause pushback (getting pushback from being hit for 100 damage when you have 10k life seems pretty rediculous) but also by changing the mechanic so that it also applied to melee weapon swing timers at the same time.
What I was thinking was to create a scaling degree of pushback based on the incoming damage. Maximum pushback on any spell/swing timer would be 1 second and that would be for a single hit that took away more then 50% of your life. There would be no pushback for any hit that did less then 5% of your life and the degree of pushback would scale based on the percentage of damage taken.
What about tanking? There are 3 tanking classes. Just link melee swing-timer pushback to tanking abilities/talents and that should resolve the issue.
Paladins - while Righteous Fury is active and if the paladin is wearing a shield no melee swing-timer pushback will occur unless the pally is hit for more then 10% of their max hps. Then add 100% pushback prevention of the melee swing-timer when Holy Shield is active.
Druids - while in Bear Form no swing-timer pushback occurs unless the Bear is hit for more then 10% of their max hps. Then add 100% swing-time pushback to Leader of the Pack but have it only apply when in Bear Form.
Warriors - when in defensive or berzerker stance there is no melee pushback unless the warrior is hit for more then 10% of their max hps. Equipping a shield while in defensive stance gives 100% prevention of swing-timer pushback.
In any event my point is that it is not a lack of pushback that causes Warlocks and Druids to dominate in 2v2, it is the ability to deal/heal damage on the run and while line of sighting. Using those two classes as an argument for pushback being too powerful is, again, hyperbole that ignores a very large portion of the mechanics of Arena.
I refer you to my other post:
Sorry, I did not mean to imply that spell pushback is the reason instant casts are so powerful. But it's the reason that instant casts become the only option when focused (for certain classes). The point of my earlier post was to simply note that for warlocks and druids, their instant casts are already their best options, so having to "resort" to them doesn't hurt their ability to contribute in an arena. And the classes whose DPS is hurt the most by pushback just so happen to be the least represented classes in arenas.
If a nerf to spell pushback benefits casters who perform the weakest in arenas, and is only a slight buff for casters who already fare well in arenas (warlocks/druids), why so against it?
Maybe I am just not remembering it (it has been almost a year and a half), but I don't remember crippling poison being as devastating as it is now.
No shiv. It was pretty common to not get crippled if the rogue was only on you briefly. Now you're basically guaranteed to be crippled as soon as they touch you.
What a spectacular backtrack after facts caught up with you.
No, actually, I simply realized I was not going to convince anyone that basing balance on 2200+ ratings and more specifically "normalized" ratings (which only accounts for the top ~1% of all players and ignores the majority of the player base) is a bad idea, so I let the argument go. My point in those posts was that Druids were in the middle for most ratings in 3's, and next to last for the majority of 5's. It is not my problem if people want to argue about minutia and claim all of my arguments are void because we disagree on what ratings are used to determine balance. My point from the very beginning is that most of the examples used thus far in the thread have been based on some rather precarious reasoning - such as the claim that all Hunters have sub-1s shot times, that there is no way to counter pets, or that Warlocks and Druids are successful because they don't have pushback. If you are going to continue to try and flame me, I would be happy to take this to tells.
03/03/08, 9:56 AM
Sorry ,i am working on it. You guys from EJ moderation team are great. Thanks.
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