Well while they're busy removing disasterous RNG events from occuring in PvP - such as changing all 'chance to resist fear/stun/charm' into 'reduces the duration of stun/fear/charm' - Imp Conc Aura reducing counterspell durations, resilience lowering the potentially enormous crit rates etc., I'm fairly certain Spell Pushback comes under that category.
Most of the casters have some form of pushback resistance, but only for one area of their speciality. Intensity for Destruction, Burning Soul for Fire, Healing Focus for Holy/Resto etc. as well as such effects like PvP gloves giving pushback resist on Fear and Polymorph, but in no cases is it enough to reach 100%. Personally, I was PISSED when they took away my 100% Searing Pain interrupt resist. That made an otherwise weak spell into a godsend against the likes of Warriors, Rogues and especially Hunters.
This is where Paladins come in, to be kind enough to provide us with 35-50% interrupt resistance, but is it really fair for that to be our only method of obtaining complete pushback resistance? 100% interrupt resistance makes the difference of WoW PvP turning from a god awful, annoying mess of high mana cost instant spell smashing into something a hell of a lot more fun for a caster because you're not restricted to using only a small portion of your spell book when you're being beaten on by something with a melee swing timer. Of course this puts more value on having a Holy Paladin in your group, but without one it greatly limits your strategy in solo and group fights. Pushback is genuinely unfair in asking us to tag along a pocket Paladin in order to reach our potential. A comparison can be made to bear with Shamans' Windfury and Rogues/Warriors, but the difference being that your playstyle doesn't change with Windfury, you just hit harder and enjoy some bigass hits. With 100% pushback resistance you get your spellbook back and get to play with your entire arsenal of spells without constant fear of "if I cast this, am I going to get screwed by pushback?". The game is genuinely more FUN without pushback.
And with incomplete (i.e. less than 100%) values of pushback resistance, there still exists a big RNG-fest for casters in PvP. "If he didn't interrupt my Fear at the last second, I could have gotten him away from me and lived long enough to get healed...god dammit".
Ever play a Warlock pre-BC and try and fight a bunch of lowbies at once? GOD that was embarassing, almost dying to a bunch of ants because you can't get a spell off.
Now maybe having it COMPLETELY removed is a little over the top. Warlocks spamming Seeds of Corruption unhindered, in the right circumstances, would be a little OTT, but I think there needs to be more ways of getting complete spell pushback resistance for a good number of spells than one class with one spec being in your party.
Inscription would be a good way to do this.
Last edited by Bibdy : 06/18/08 at 8:23 PM.
There's always free cheese in the mouse traps, but the mice there ain't happy.
This is where Paladins come in, to be kind enough to provide us with 35-50% interrupt resistance, but is it really fair for that to be our only method of obtaining complete pushback resistance? 100% interrupt resistance makes the difference of WoW PvP turning from a god awful, annoying mess of high mana cost instant spell smashing into something a hell of a lot more fun for a caster because you're not restricted to using only a small portion of your spell book when you're being beaten on by something with a melee swing timer. Of course this puts more value on having a Holy Paladin in your group, but without one it greatly limits your strategy in solo and group fights. Pushback is genuinely unfair in asking us to tag along a pocket Paladin in order to reach our potential. A comparison can be made to bear with Shamans' Windfury and Rogues/Warriors, but the difference being that your playstyle doesn't change with Windfury, you just hit harder and enjoy some bigass hits. With 100% pushback resistance you get your spellbook back and get to play with your entire arsenal of spells without constant fear of "if I cast this, am I going to get screwed by pushback?". The game is genuinely more FUN without pushback.
This thread is about why pushback should or should not be in the game, this is not the place to preach about how bad destro warlocks have it. Not only that, but you're also still trying to pull out the "but I want to be able to stand there and just cast :<" card, which is in all fairness laughable.
You get your entire spellbook back by speccing a PvP spec or get a proper setup for what you play, what on earth is "unfair" about that? But then again, this only applies to destro locks, with minimal peeling pretty much any class can still get spells off without 100% pushback resistance. Infact, without having their spell pushed back at all.
You get your entire spellbook back by speccing a PvP spec or get a proper setup for what you play, what on earth is "unfair" about that? But then again, this only applies to destro locks, with minimal peeling pretty much any class can still get spells off without 100% pushback resistance. Infact, without having their spell pushed back at all.
Ok, what?
You mean with a rogue permastunning the person they are dpsing, or you think a warrior can reliably peel a rogue for long enough to get longer cast time spells off reliably?
This thread is about why pushback should or should not be in the game, this is not the place to preach about how bad destro warlocks have it. Not only that, but you're also still trying to pull out the "but I want to be able to stand there and just cast :<" card, which is in all fairness laughable.
You get your entire spellbook back by speccing a PvP spec or get a proper setup for what you play, what on earth is "unfair" about that? But then again, this only applies to destro locks, with minimal peeling pretty much any class can still get spells off without 100% pushback resistance. Infact, without having their spell pushed back at all.
Okay, then ignore the unfair part if you're going to be that anal about it - even though I've also played a Mage and Priest in PvP and they're equally screwed out of half of their spell book because of pushback - I just have a thing for Destro. Sue me.
So, how about the RNG part? They've done a pretty good job of dropping crit in arena, reducing the RNG affect Counterspell and CC effects have on arena games. About the only things left to address are Mace Stun procs, Priest and Paladin talents Unbreakable Will and Unyielding Faith and spell pushback. Then you'll have an arena game almost completely devoid of RNG events. Edit: Oh and Orc stun resist.
And if FUN isnt a good enough reason to get rid of it, or improve it, I don't know what is. This is a game afterall, isnt it? Blizzard wants us to have fun, right? And I'm not saying to just flat-out remove the thing and call it a day, but balance the damage output of casters and interrupt abilities of melee under the assumption the caster can actually cast!
Last edited by Bibdy : 06/19/08 at 12:33 PM.
There's always free cheese in the mouse traps, but the mice there ain't happy.
What about proper measures? Is it honestly fun to be so static that your casting problems will be fixed by push back resistance? Other classes have all sorts of measures (blink, IV, shield, you name it) to avoid push back that are actually dynamic and don't turn this game into PvE, why can't every class just get those? Improve these kind of things and finally removing push back from pets will go a long way balancing melee and casters, not this kind of stuff.
Do you really think I just stand there and spam Searing Pain when I go Destruction on my Warlock or spam Scorch when I go fire on my Mage with a pocket Paladin? Yes, its a hell of a lot of fun to be able to use spells like Fear, Poly, Searing Pain, Scorch, Fireball, Immolate, Shadowfury etc. with complete reliability. Without the Paladin I only have between 50-70% interrupt resist on those spells and I often get RNG'd to the point of frustration when I'm being attacked. One bad roll is all it takes for a crappy Rogue to be given another full second to find his Kick button.
There's always free cheese in the mouse traps, but the mice there ain't happy.
I agree that things like snake traps and a hunters pet causing push back on a caster suck because of their attack speed, but casters would still loose to melee if spell push back was eliminated. Why? Melee can move behind the caster a split second before a spell is cast so that they get the "target must be in front of you" message.
Eliminating spell puch back entirely does not solve anything when a caster is "toe to toe" with melee as like above, melee walks through you to cancel the spell.
This thread talks about a lot of things other then just spell push back, but all of these ideas (even spell push back) add complexity and fun to the overall play (what is not fun for you may be very fun for the other class). Spell push back forces a caster to make more desicions that have "greater" consequences. Does a warlock try and kill a hunter, or kill its pet, or both, or does it use fear on the pet only? Does a mage cast frost bolt with a hunters pet approaching? Do you try and sheep the rouge/warrior on you knowing it will take 3 or 4 secs to cast (and leave yourself open to an interupt) or blink first? Split second desicions that add up quickly to determine the outcome of a match.
And even though your CC or root/snare on a melee gets counter/eliminated by his/hers partner, remember that you should have one(s) as well. Have the damage you recieve be healed or have them CC someone or do damage or....have them do something that gives you an advantage.
Eliminating spell pushback is not the answer. A caster, when fighting melee, should do what they have to until an opportunity to gain the advantage presents itself. A mage blowing all their cooldowns against a rogue in a attempt to gib him/her is dumb when both are of equal gear. Before the mage truely attempts to burst a rogue, he/she should play defensive on the rogue to force the rogue to burn cooldowns.
All classes have strengths and weaknesses, and right now I will agree that melee is king in PvP (PvE as well?). Eliminating spell push back because it will help casters kill melee is a flawed arguement because melee can cancel the cast by walking through you anyhow. And it lessons the (not sure if this is a common term) opportunity cost of casting a spell. We will get warlocks and mages saying that they are good at PvP because they are good at turning in place while casting a spell trying to keep pace with melee as they jump around a caster. It will be a sad day for WoW when/if that ever happens.
What makes PvP so much fun is that their are so many spells and abilities that can be used (with the excpetion of paladins, we only get about 5 "tricks") at any given time. A player must adapt/react if they want to be successful. Each action your opponent takes you must decide if you should react to it or keep doing what you are doing (ie: you are running across the arena and start getting dotted by a warlock, do you keep running doing what you were doing or do you run to the nearest pillar to avoid the DoTs out of LoS?). My paladin sucks because we are almost entirely reactionary with no ability that will make the other team change their tactics mid match (thus why we suck in 2v2 and 3v3). 1 ability that might force the use of a trunket on a minute CD timer. We all know paladins are broke, but then again we have 100% spell push back protection and yet we are not wanted. Force the other team to play your game and react to their attempts to gain any advantage over you. You may not always be able to cast Soul Fire or shadow bolt, but then again PvP would be borring if that all you had to do anyhow.
What makes you think that 100% spell pushback suddenly turns casters into bolt spamming retards? You're still going to want to escape the other guy's attacks and mitigate his damage with things like Blink, Shadowfury and kiting in general. When I had full Searing Pain interrupt resist, I didn't just spam that over and over. When I roll with 2pc Tier4 on my Mage I don't just spam Frostbolts all day long. Cast-time spells are dangerous enough to use on their own without spell pushback because you're waving a giant 'Kick me!' sign in the guy's face.
Now if complete pushback resistance were given to more spells, but interrupt effects like Kick, Pummel also put a debuff on a caster which reduced his casting speed by X% for a few seconds I think that would be a lot more in-line with balance and removing of the RNG. Or only put the debuff on if the Kick/Pummel failed to land on a spell. Whatever, I'm just brainstorming.
And as far as the 'run through the guy thing' goes, purely anecdotal but, I haven't been the victim of that in so long I'm starting to think that they changed it somewhere along the line since vanilla WoW. It used to be a split second of not being in your front 180 degrees cancelled the spell, but it seems a lot harder to pull that off now.
Last edited by Bibdy : 06/19/08 at 5:48 PM.
There's always free cheese in the mouse traps, but the mice there ain't happy.
I've had spells cancel when people move through me at the last second, and I've also had them finish casting just fine. I think whether or not the spell completes has a lot to do with server lag/player latency.
They could remove the los check in melee range to counter this. Or add autoface to all spells (channeled spells like drain life or mindflay already have it).
I agree that pushback und running-through-caster can add a lot of frustration to the game because of rng/luck. It would be great to see the game move further away from those in pvp.
Do you really think I just stand there and spam Searing Pain when I go Destruction on my Warlock or spam Scorch when I go fire on my Mage with a pocket Paladin? Yes, its a hell of a lot of fun to be able to use spells like Fear, Poly, Searing Pain, Scorch, Fireball, Immolate, Shadowfury etc. with complete reliability. Without the Paladin I only have between 50-70% interrupt resist on those spells and I often get RNG'd to the point of frustration when I'm being attacked. One bad roll is all it takes for a crappy Rogue to be given another full second to find his Kick button.
So, you prefer to get kicked/pummelled to actually having flexible options to deal with your opponents? I'm baffled by your perception of fun, but whatever floats your boat I guess.
You just want plain and simple push back removal (well, you say you don't, but you still say you do) and for some mysterious reason at least not confirm that you want destro locks (and other casters) to be more dynamic to deal with melee; it's a quite obvious conclusion, seeing as you'll get kicked and pummeled just the same without being pushed back. However I was still polite enough to pose it in the shape of a question, but you sadly missed that anyway.
Now if you like talking air that's all fine and dandy if you'd just say, but I so happen to know you're a good destro warlock, so I can't help but be interested what you'd actually think of my view. Excuse my rudeness, but you just seem awfully keen on this particular solution when I'm fairly convinced there's far better ways of solving caster's problems.
I've said, I'm pretty sure, at least twice now that complete removal is a little over the top. I'm certain that Seed of Corruption having no pushback resistance is an intentional limitation to the highest AOE damage spell in the game. More ACCESSIBLE is what I would like to see. Being able to Inscribe a spell or two for full pushback resistance (instead of more damage, or the upcoming knockbacks, stuns, snares, whatever they end up putting in) or being able to talent for 100% resistance on some spells so at least you've always got a tangible fallback weapon when you're under pressure of being attacked, without having to depend on a Paladin to get that weapon.
Merely being attacked is enough to practically shut down a caster is what irritates me. To shut down a melee character you have to shut down both him and all of the members of his team who will help him, like Priests and Paladins dispelling your CC effects or putting BoF on them. What are my team mates going to do to help me do my job? Blessing of Protection isn't quite as reapplicable as BoF. Being attacked puts you into a defensive position and forces you to blow all your cooldowns and high-mana instant casts just to be able to achieve anything, but instant-casts aren't enough to kill anybody and you're sure as hell not going to put a dent in a Rogue or Warrior's healer with one on top of you. All you achieve is blowing all your mana with the intention of staying alive, not to get a breath of relief to cast and change the outcome of the fight. There's no strategy in that and its not fun,
I suppose its a testament to the power of Paladins to value things like Imp Conc Aura so much.
There's always free cheese in the mouse traps, but the mice there ain't happy.
So, you prefer to get kicked/pummelled to actually having flexible options to deal with your opponents? I'm baffled by your perception of fun, but whatever floats your boat I guess.
Toning down spell pushback does give you flexible options to deal with your opponents.
When playing with a paladin, a warlock can actually manage to get a fear off on a rogue beating on him, solely with the help of Imp Conc Aura. This doesn't leave a rogue helpless either -- they have plenty of tools to stop a 1.5 (or 1.3 with 4-pc) second cast; kick, kidney shot, gouge, CloS, vanish, or blind. I'm perfectly fine losing to rogues with such reaction times, and any gladiator rogue is capable of this. But without that paladin, a simpleton of a rogue can spam his Hemo button, delay a fear cast by an extra 1 to 2 seconds, and relegate that lock to his instants.
The only argument I've read in this thread against toning down spell pushback boils down to: "Casters would become too OP if they can just straightup nuke with melee on them!" Yet no caster (except maybe Elemental Shaman) will really stand still nuking while focused. Mitigating damage and avoiding kicks/pummels will still force us casters to kite. Removal or a toning down of spell pushback will simply, as Bibdy said, open up the caster's spellbook, and force warriors/rogues to be more reactive with interrupts. It would also resolve the ridiculousness of pet pushback.
I still feel complete removal of spell pushback can be balanced by taking pummel/kick/silencing shot off the global cooldown. But if not, I'm still for pushback only being caused by special attacks and not white hits.
I still feel complete removal of spell pushback can be balanced by taking pummel/kick/silencing shot off the global cooldown. But if not, I'm still for pushback only being caused by special attacks and not white hits.
Removing interrupts from the GCD with no pushback would be a good compromise. It's not really reaction time that doesn't enable people to interrupt a spell, it's either the GCD or not having enough rage/energy. If you MS for example and your target starts casting half a second later, even if you get a pummel on the tail end of it, the spell is going to cast due to lag.
There are people here trying to argue that casters need pushback because, if left uninterrupted, they would "gib" melee classes in several seconds. This assumes that Blizzard's method of balancing ranged vs melee dps classes was to make melee do less damage, but ranged have less oportunity to attack. This is blatantly (and hilariously) false. In sustained DPS situations (RAIDS would be an obvious example...) rogues regularly top the charts, and dps warriors and enhancement shamans are not blown out of the water either.
Aside from CC, which affects everyone, here is how Blizzard tried to balance ranged versus melee in pvp:
-Melee classes can be prevented from DPSing by kiting them
-Ranged classes can be prevented from DPSing by pushing back their spells and interrupting them
If this all has struct you as mind-numbingly obvious so far, then perhaps all hope is not lost. The issue here should be about the BALANCE of pushback versus kiting. If both methods prevent each of their respective users from DPSing equally, then everything is working as intended.
Are they working equally? Hell no.
Think about the ease of pushback versus kiting. For most physical damage classes, pushback is as simple as autoattacking and mashing your yellow damage skill.
RESISTANCES TO PUSHBACK:
-Having a paladin in your group (Should he decide to use concentration aura, and should you be in range of it)
-Passive talents or Gear/set bonuses that give you a completely random chance to avoid instances of pushback
-Bubble Spells
For most ranged spellcasters, kiting a competitive melee class (this modifier excludes enhancement shamans XD) is an effort in futility.
RESISTANCES TO KITING:
-Improved Sprint
-Ranged Counter Kiting (Deadly Throw, Frost Shock, Piercing Howl, etc)
-Movement Slowing Effects (Hamstring, Crip Poison, etc)
-Ranged Stuns (Hammer of Justice, Charge, Intercept)
-Shadow Step
-Cloak of Shadows
-PvP Trinkets
-Blessing of Freedom
-A GCD from self or any ally who has a magic dispel
The list goes on and on. I'd have to say that Post-BC has made rogues the biggest culprits of this - they whined so much about having trouble getting in melee range, that blizzard has made them virtually unkitable now. I remember back in the days when my mage could actually kite a rogue, and get off a spell between level 1 frostbolts. Now I honestly double take if I ever actually see a rogue snared or slowed, unable to get to his prey. On my elemental shaman, once a slowing debuff has been applied to me, such as hamstring or crippling poison, the kiting game is done (for good). Frost shock and earthbind totem become useless, etc.
Ask most of the melee classes if they have any serious complaints about being able to position themselves to DPS in pvp and arenas. Ask a rogue or a warrior if getting to a target and doing damage to it could ever be described as a "hassle". Now ask the casters if being able to get off spells is ever troublesome. The answer should be all you need to see that pushback is a gratuitous flaw to almost any casting class.
There are people here trying to argue that casters need pushback because, if left uninterrupted, they would "gib" melee classes in several seconds. This assumes that Blizzard's method of balancing ranged vs melee dps classes was to make melee do less damage, but ranged have less oportunity to attack. This is blatantly (and hilariously) false. In sustained DPS situations (RAIDS would be an obvious example...) rogues regularly top the charts, and dps warriors and enhancement shamans are not blown out of the water either.
Aside from CC, which affects everyone, here is how Blizzard tried to balance ranged versus melee in pvp:
-Melee classes can be prevented from DPSing by kiting them
-Ranged classes can be prevented from DPSing by pushing back their spells and interrupting them
If this all has struct you as mind-numbingly obvious so far, then perhaps all hope is not lost. The issue here should be about the BALANCE of pushback versus kiting. If both methods prevent each of their respective users from DPSing equally, then everything is working as intended.
Are they working equally? Hell no.
Think about the ease of pushback versus kiting. For most physical damage classes, pushback is as simple as autoattacking and mashing your yellow damage skill.
RESISTANCES TO PUSHBACK:
-Having a paladin in your group (Should he decide to use concentration aura, and should you be in range of it)
-Passive talents or Gear/set bonuses that give you a completely random chance to avoid instances of pushback
-Bubble Spells
For most ranged spellcasters, kiting a competitive melee class (this modifier excludes enhancement shamans XD) is an effort in futility.
RESISTANCES TO KITING:
-Improved Sprint
-Ranged Counter Kiting (Deadly Throw, Frost Shock, Piercing Howl, etc)
-Movement Slowing Effects (Hamstring, Crip Poison, etc)
-Ranged Stuns (Hammer of Justice, Charge, Intercept)
-Shadow Step
-Cloak of Shadows
-PvP Trinkets
-Blessing of Freedom
-A GCD from self or any ally who has a magic dispel
The list goes on and on. I'd have to say that Post-BC has made rogues the biggest culprits of this - they whined so much about having trouble getting in melee range, that blizzard has made them virtually unkitable now. I remember back in the days when my mage could actually kite a rogue, and get off a spell between level 1 frostbolts. Now I honestly double take if I ever actually see a rogue snared or slowed, unable to get to his prey. On my elemental shaman, once a slowing debuff has been applied to me, such as hamstring or crippling poison, the kiting game is done (for good). Frost shock and earthbind totem become useless, etc.
Ask most of the melee classes if they have any serious complaints about being able to position themselves to DPS in pvp and arenas. Ask a rogue or a warrior if getting to a target and doing damage to it could ever be described as a "hassle". Now ask the casters if being able to get off spells is ever troublesome. The answer should be all you need to see that pushback is a gratuitous flaw to almost any casting class.
Well considering all a mage needs is 4 seconds to take someone from full to dead alone, I'd say they do a hell of a lot more on demand burst than any single melee. This is the fundamental issue, if you let a dps caster hardcast for even a short time, something on your team is probably going to die.
Well considering all a mage needs is 4 seconds to take someone from full to dead alone, I'd say they do a hell of a lot more on demand burst than any single melee. This is the fundamental issue, if you let a dps caster hardcast for even a short time, something on your team is probably going to die.
Without any healing debuffs of their own, casters are dps that can be healed through just as easily as any other (easier than an arms warrior). Their uninterrupted burst isn't something completely off the charts either - they have the occasional big instant cast (nature's swiftness, presence of mind), they have trinkets, just like everyone else does, and some of them have haste abilities, just like everyone else does. You think a mage can kill someone in 4 seconds? That's exactly 1 frostbolt and a global cooldown. Even with a water elemental out to give them an instant crit with ranged frost nova, do you have any idea how hard frostbolts crit for against 10.5k+hp 350 resil+ characters?
Let's be honest, people dont blitz casters because they're obscenely more dangerous than melee'ers. They blitz them because they're squishy little buggers whose damage can be largely negated, not even by crowd control, but by DOING DAMAGE TO THEM! If you attack a rogue or a warrior, you may eventually kill them, but you arent taking them out of the fight for the duration that you're doing it - they're attacking you back.
Warriors can dump rage...rogues can blow cooldowns...we all can use trinkets...do you have any credibility for claiming that casters somehow have so much more burst? (LOVE to see the theory crafting on that 4 second mage kill)
If you focus a warrior hard he's going to def stance, sword and board run/intervene away and spell reflect. Blowing his rage pool to survive the (caster) nuke. Enhance shamans are going to put a shield up, decreasing their damage. Rogues often get focused to mitigate damage (snare and stun the rogue) if the damage is enough he'll be on the run. Feral druids switch to bear form. Ret pallys get forced to bubble rather than wings. Did I miss any of the melee classes?
You can pretty much do damage to any class to decrease their ability to do damage back.
Personally in 5s we try to make life hard for a caster because when their team mates get you to 50% without fail they are going to blow their cooldowns and try and drop you.
I wouldn't say that a mage can take someone from full to dead solo. However my experience in 493 res (with totem buff) 11k health unbuffed is that a good shatter combo will take me to 20%-30%, if its lined up with any other dps class over the same duration I'm probably going to die unless I blow battlemasters/ns/pvp trinket. That is big burst. If its landed on say a warrior in beserker, is even more dangerous.
You can pretty much do damage to any class to decrease their ability to do damage back.
There's a fundamental difference here I think you're missing. Casters have their own arsenal of defensive abilities that will lower their damage through the use of global cooldowns or much longer duration spells (bubbles, ice block, life drain, etc). All you're saying is that someone can CHOOSE to survive longer by limiting their DPS. I don't think anyone would debate that.
The discussion at hand is about spell pushback, how the simple act of getting attacked will FORCE a caster to lose damage. No one is forcing that MS warrior to throw on a sword and board - he can keep on DPSing if he feels like it. What's more, spell pushback does not necessarily have anything to do with getting "focused", as people in this thread have attested, a simple hunter or warlock pet is enough to cause substantial degrees of spell pushback (to be clear, that is by the PET of a single player auto attacking, little more than an afterthought of one of the five players on an arena team).
Save for feeding warriors with (en)rage, focusing ANY class will gimp their role in general, and not just because they chose to play defensively (save for resto druids, but they'll be in bear soon enough). For most ranged classes, DPS has CC build in or it doesn't gimp your DPS rotation, meaning, if a hunter and primarily a mage is focusing you, you're often rooted and snared effectively destroying your DPS to bare minima as wel.
If a warrior/rogue sticks on a priest, warlock, or hunter (or any class that can be perma-snared), they can only be peeled off by CC. A mage or hunter or shaman or warlock who is nuking that warrior/rogue is doing nothing to slow them down or protect their teammate. In the case of the warrior, they're merely feeding him rage. Unless your team's combined burst is high enough to force that warrior/rogue to play defensive.
The only reliable way to peel melee off teammates is to CC them, not damage them. It's come to the point that certain classes really can't function in smaller arena brackets without the help of druids to CC melee off of them.
I wouldn't say that a mage can take someone from full to dead solo. However my experience in 493 res (with totem buff) 11k health unbuffed is that a good shatter combo will take me to 20%-30%, if its lined up with any other dps class over the same duration I'm probably going to die unless I blow battlemasters/ns/pvp trinket. That is big burst. If its landed on say a warrior in beserker, is even more dangerous.
Being very very generous, a shatter combo might do ~5000 damage with trinkets up against a target with some basic amount of resilience. It would take you to 60% or so assuming both spells crit, which is by no means given.
Being very very generous, a shatter combo might do ~5000 damage with trinkets up against a target with some basic amount of resilience. It would take you to 60% or so assuming both spells crit, which is by no means given.
A warrior in zerker stance, or a rogue in pve gear is going to take a lot more than 5k dmg to a shatter combo. Add in some minor damage from other teammates and a fireblast follow-up and you can easily gib a warrior who is stuck in zerker for a short time with 1 well placed shatter.
06/19/08, 5:21 AM
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