Unlike the other rogue threads that we've all memorized by now (you HAVE, haven't you?), this thread is about the when and how, as opposed to the what. If you're looking for hard numbers or gear comparisons, the usual threads that cover hit rating, meta gems, weapon enchants and so on are found here;

Roguecraft 101 - Elitist Jerks (PVE)
[Rogue] PVP Stat Standards/advice - Elitist Jerks (PVP)

The purpose of this thread is to serve as a discussion of fresher pvp ideas and strats/methods, with an emphasis on arena. The reason for this is that what applies in arena usually applies in world pvp, but not necessarily the other way around. If you've heard or developed a new trick, or now perform old tasks per all the recent talent changes in a new way, share this here =)

To start off, I offer a query to arena rogues; what are your personal practices with Premeditation and how has 2.4 changed it?

I've heard in the past that premed + initiative is a 'waste' for cheapshot, since if you get the proc as you often do, thats 5cp right away. What about the hemo or ss used while stun is up? CP from abilities performed on a talented premed+CS are 'wasted' .. or are they?

An idea I had was when you inevitably get cc'd by that frost mage who got lucky and detected you, vanish and premed 2cp onto the target so you can immediately deadly throw and use the time from that interrupt to get back in range rather than burning sprint so soon.

There's lots of debate ongoing about shadowstep strategies, but love it or hate it, your new ideas and strategies (crazy or otherwise) are welcome here.

I find the premed+initiative a really good tool against other rogues. My main tactic, is to open with a cheapshot+premed and rupture at once. Very often I get a combo point from Ruthlessness and have enough energy to pull off another Hemo and do a 2cp kidney. The same way you can do a nice Cheapshot-Expose-Kidney on a lock or other clothie.

Hmm.. that's not bad, not bad at all.

Something else that I still have on a napkin is premed -> CS -> SnD -> vanish -> CS -> KS etc, but haven't tried it yet. Its possible DR's may render the whole thing a little limp.

CP/en generation remains an issue. The conventional wisdom holds that your offhand should be fast for the purpose of higher chance of poison application across X offhand hits within X period of time, and also keeping the energy cost of shiv as low as you can.

Is this necessary any more? Mutilate is great with disc priests in 2's but for those who dont use daggers, the only GOOD static dps/energy production is heavy combat. IF one can assume that your poisons land in a reasonable amount of time as they usually do and IF one can assume no weapon switching, hence choosing poisons only for utility.. is a fast offhand even necessary anymore in the 2's bracket? Shadowstep has lots of bells and whistles in its spec but its sustained dps is a bit lacking.

I could have sworn there was already a Rogue PvP thread, in fact you link it. How is this one any different?

I think wasting pre is not worth it to use on opener.

If u are lucky enough with Pre + CS u will actually lose some energy if u get lucky on energy proc since you will have to use finisher instead of hemo straight away. Also i did like the fact that if i use finisher after Pre+Cs i cant do hemo twice during cheapshot doing pretty much nothing to my target, doing less pressure at the start.

I like to keep pre for those moments when i have to keep something in place during the fight with vanish + pre + cs followed by kidney where during CS i just do nothing regaining energy that i will blow during KS and after KS for kicks/gouge, works very nicely if u want to finish a single healer teams in 2s/3s.

I think the difference is that, the thread you link here, sports advice which has is generally accepted as "right", this could be how to make a standard shadowstep build, or that you can win time by using vanish when blind is over to sap. Whereas this thread is reserved for more free ideas that is not really advice, but things to try out, like maybe mind controlling a warrior in Arena to blow his trinket, then blind him and go for the druid. I have never tried something like this, but it could be something to try I guess, but not something to tell people to do against druid/warrior. That's what I suppose this thread is for.

Depending on the situation, if you can get a clean 1v1 on another rogue I like to:

Premed -> CS -> Rupture -> Hemo -> Shiv (crip) then kite the rogue with rupture and crippling poison up. Ideally you'll be able to get out of combat, but regardless, if you stay on him then he'll come out of CS with a full energy bar, whereas yours is empty. I prefer to let my energy regen and give him the chance to make a mistake. Rogues can actually kite other rogues quite well. Here are the common follow ups to that approach:

Enemy Rogue uses Sprint (Imp Sprint) or Shadow Step : If I have a good lead before he does this then I'll use deadly throw to stop the sprint (still have 2 to 3 combo points from Hemo + Shiv + Proc 60% of the time). If he does this right away then I shiv crippling on him and hemo to 5 cp for a KS -> vanish -> garotte -> shiv and then resume kiting.

Enemy Rogue uses Cloak of Shadows to take the poison off: This is really dumb. He just blew a 1 min cd on a single stack of poison. If he does this then simply deadly throw and kite until you can restealth and open again.

Enemy Rogue uses Vanish to take the poison off: Wait until the Rupture breaks vanish, then deadly throw and continue to kite until you can restealth. If the Rogue uses Vanish, then sprint once you've used deadly throw, respond with a vanish -> cs -> shiv -> rupture kite.

I'm sure all of this is old hat to most people here, but I always think it's nice to remind fellow rogues out there that we CAN kite other rogues (possibly better than many other classes can infact).

I lost you when you said you can cloak off poisons...

...plus, what does all this have to do with arena. A rogue very rarely has to kite another rogue in such a fashion outside of duels.

And I also agree with others trying to figure out the point of this thread. Not much has changed in 2.4 with rogues strategy or build-wise, and seems like a rehash of the other Rogue PVP thread.

Oh my...

Maybe someone can enlighten me as to how premed+initiative cheap shot, waiting for cs to fade then kidney with full energy is a waste? Won't you get 2 ticks during the cheap shot anyway, and dirty deeds cheap shot is 40 energy so yeah..

My Standard opener against most classes is Premed -> CS -> EA. Most people wait for the kidney to trinket out of that, so more often than not this seems to work well. Of course this is very situational, like against mages I always open with garrote, and sometimes do the same against paladins as well.

I hope you're joking ...... and as for rogue v/s rogue; it's come down to that several times in the arena; especially in mirror matches. Oh and a LOT has changed for rogues in 2.4; well for Cheat Death rogues anyways. Pre 2.4 no one would touch a rogue with a 20 foot pole because Cheat Death was just THAT broken. Now, people are starting to realize that rogues drop pretty quick again, even if they do have Cheat Death.

Me any my rogue partner have not had luck with him going mutilate. It seems like the extra damage going out and healing coming in would make it a great 2v2 build, but the lack of tools at his disposal makes him drop too easily when i am CC'd. We've been experimenting with both in recent weeks and SHS was the pretty clear winner for us.

The other night some random mage asked me to join their 3v3 and so I and a well geared and skilled disc priest went to work, bringing a sub 1500 team to just over 1700. Nothing to be too proud about I know, but doing it as a 19/42/0 sword spec it gave me a glimmer of hope at one day hitting 1850. Since 2.4 I've been working on it, trying all manner of specs and it became pretty clear that I'm just not that good at being sneaky. I can almost never get saps off, much less any fancy blind -> sap work going. Running mostly Mage/Rogue in 2s and then PMR 3s, with deep sub specs (20/0/41) or the nerfed HARP, I wasn't doing much damage and we couldn't stand up to the double healer or full S3 geared lock/druid/hunter type teams. It was just such a relief to be gettin heals, tearing into my opponents, full pressure aggressiveness w/o having to worry about being subtle. It was especially fun destroying the ShS rogues after their healer was no more. In sum, with the inc availability of PvP gear, I like the steady DPS combat swords offer.

I'm gonna try some kind of bastardized split spec, 0/25/36 =D

I'm still not convinced that shadowstep is that great. Nothing about the talents in the sub tree are just magically much better now than they were before various talents in the sub tree got nerfed or buffed. In fact, one could say the sub tree is overall worse than they were before, mostly due to the hemo nerf.

Blizzard needed to throw around some changes so that people would spec something besides HARP but as usual, they did it in their typical hitlerian fashion. It seems like everyone thinks shadowstep is the best arena spec just because blizz wants us to. Being railroaded ftl.

So far I've heard others provide examples of why they LIKE that spec, but not necessarily logical reasons why HARP/variants or mutilate can't still be effective. My opinion on this depends on this premise; rogues are typically the muscle in 2v2 but in recent times with all the nerfs to rogue burst dmg, rogues may be better suited to playing the support role and functioning in a way that complements the one thing which is most fundamental about rogues.. locking someone the fuck down and keeping them that way.

Frost mages, especially geared ones that don't suck, don't have to worry about the armor dmg mitigation on that druid who just went bear after seeing a rogue with maces in his hands. Meanwhile, the targets against which rogues have no worries concerning burst mitigation are not an issue to begin with, being mostly clothies. And we all know rogues generally have no trouble killing a clothie.

If a mage was still a mage and a warrior a warrior, but they switched armor and it was the warrior wearing the dress.. the mage would be a god and the warrior would die nearly as easily as most clothies do.

I feel like there just has to be a new way to structure a 2's team for a rogue, especially where mages are concerned, with their crazy dmg output. But would that require an oddball spec on the part of the mage too? Some odd mix of fire/frost? Could it be feasible for a mage or priest to take a more central/offensive role the way locks do?

On my mage I tried to spec Fire/frost, and while the build is effective, it goes OOM before the match even begins.

Interesting viewpoint though, gave me some ideas.

I think the one bracket where Mut can potentially shine is in 3s in particular comps like PMR. Mut Rogues need support with getting rid of their snares/roots and peeling meele off of them for them to be effective. It's hard to give Mut Rogues the needed support in 2s, and they would just get swarmed in 5s.

Mutilate's strongest place is in 5v5 because of the burst it offers. Work up a full SnD, get 5 points on a target and save up full energy. Call for burst on that target and Imp Kidney Shot --> Mutilate --> Mutilate --> CB Evis. Your teammates, of course, are doing their burst thing as well. That is tremendously scary burst for someone to try and heal through.

What else would you use cloak for in a rogue vs rogue 1 vs 1?

I'm not a big fan of cheapshot > rupture at the start of a fight, seems like you waste some of the initiative gained from getting the opener. If you follow up cheap shot with a kidney you're in a very strong position. Either he takes 10 seconds full damage and you can rupture at the end of the kidney and proceed with kiting, or he trinkets the kidney and you are free to get a full duration blind later in the fight (assuming its not on CD).

While a Mut Rogue can go unnoticed at times (especially since you start out stealthed), if you end up facing the same team over and over on the same night it becomes a factor that Mut Rogues can be so easily swarmed. A Mut Rogue's list of "outs" consist of 1 vanish, cloak, and his trinket, and often times his trinket has to be used in conjunction with vanish or cloak to stay alive.

Wars/ShS Rogues who stick on the Mut Rogue completely neutralizes them as well. It's one of the reasons why Master Poisoner has become a staple of arena Mut builds - to somewhat counteract a Rogue focusing them.

Mut Rogues can work in 5s but they need a lot of support, and they work better if your comp has classes that need to be focused first or can get meele off you.

Also you never want to waste your CB on Evis, always CB your Mutilate (more damage + guaranteed extra CP). Also you can't cloak poisons, thus there is generally no reason to ever cloak vs another Rogue (unless they have an item with some sort of special magic proc or something).

I assure you, you can cloak off poisons.

I'd be curious to see who's NOT using cookie cutter specs in arena, and if so why.

Some Random Player(tm) was brave enough to denounce the worth of the vile poisons talent on the wow rogue boards, and as usual, got lampooned by all the brainless sheep that just spec Improved Cookie-cutter. But it got me to thinking.. this is a ridiculous talent. Its taken strictly for its utility but surely its not that great. Its dmg buff doesn't matter, no one uses instant or deadly in arena, you'd be foolish to do without the utility of wound/crip etc.

Does it make sense to keep using the same old cookie cutter crap for the same old reasons? Does anyone, anymore, THINK about just WHY youre spec'ing talent X?

Show of hands, who here has had arena matches where that shaman/druid/whatever had no problems at all removing your poisons AGAIN?

There is a difference and speccing out of Vile Poisons makes it that much more difficult to keep them on your target. A rogue is very dependant on his poisons being applied to their target, anything to help keep them on there is a very valuable talent.