Sando

One of the problems that PVEers have with PVP is that they see a game that was initially designed to basically be pure PVE with some PVP thrown in on the side, now being balanced with PVP in mind. So i thought it would be a good idea to actually come up with a list of abilities and effects that have an impact on PVP without impacting PVE, things that can be changed in PVP without effecting PVE, especially raiding. A notable example of a change made recently that did affect raiding was druid lifebloom change, and the huge uproar over this is obviously something that blizzard would like to avoid.

Things that i'm talking about things like a classes ability to move quickly, druids recently lost a movement speed set bonus. This has a small or no impact on raiding, but is a hindrence in PVP, and is similar for most classes, with notable exceptions like hunters, who kite in raids.

Other things I can think of:
- Ability to get out of combat, instead of nerfing drinking, why not nerf classes ability to get out of combat? Changing druid HOTs so that if they are ticking on someone in combat then the druid is kept in combat would have no impact in raids that i can see since they can't get out of combat anyway, but would severely limit their oportunities to drink. Obviously this can be applied to all characters with HOTs as required, as well as DOTs if needed.
- Hunter Scatter shot, it's an ability basically never used in raiding, and only sometimes used in 5 mans. It's an ability in a lesser DPS spec, that could easily be nerfed or buffed as needed with minimal impact on PVE.
- Priest Psychic Scream, again, does not have a large impact on PVE, can easily be nerfed or buffed as needed to balance the Priest class in PVP without changing PVE viability.
- Hunter Silencing Shot, again it has very little impact on PVE, especially given that it does not interupt.
- Priest Silence, very similar to hunter silencing shot, given that it does not interupt and is therefor not taken by raiding shadow priests. This is an especially good example given shadow priests decline in arena PVP.
- Dispell resistance mechanics, i'm not as sure on this one, i'm 3/5 MH at the moment but as far as i'm aware there isn't a boss where dispell is a major part of it, like Garr was back in MC.
- Set Bonuses, if you want to PVE at a relatively high level, you can't be wearing your PVP gear, so set bonuses are a good way to balance classes in PVP without effecting PVE to a great extent.

These are examples of what i can think up right now, but it'd be interesting to see what abilities each class have that aren't used much in PVE that can be balanced around in PVP, and perhaps more importantly, what game mechanics there are that have minimal impact on PVE balancing. Having a resource on hand that discusses these sorts of abilities would hopefully mean that more meaningful ideas can be posted by people regarding balancing in arenas, especially by those that don't PVE. Because let's face it, if you've ever read some of the balancing threads/blogs by the PVPing 'elite' that often don't PVE, some of the ideas that they have would have incredibly large impacts on the PVE game.

I don't think we need to get into discussions on what impact nerfs/buffs to certain abilities would have on PVP, as you can see in my examples all i've said is that balancing can be done to these abilities if needed, not that they should be done. There are many other threads here and elsewhere discussing various buffs/nerfs, another one isn't needed. Obviously discussion is needed on the impact that buffs/nerfs to these abilites would have on PVE.

And yes, i play hunter/priest in Arena, hence using those 2 as examples.

 

toth

To clarify, a Priest's Silence does interrupt spell casting.

 

Fiola

I think he meant that it cannot be used as an interrupt like Kick or Pummel.

 

Khaelarys

One mechanic that falls into this is Diminishing Returns. I know some of the effects do have a DR in PVE (Stuns, Cyclone) - others do not, and I question if DR is really a solid mechanic at all. I'd much rather the developers get to a point where DR isn't necessary, and use more consistent mechanics (Cooldowns, sheep-heals, incapacitate effects) to manage the CC monster they've created.

As far as certain abilities that can be tweaked freely without greatly effecting pve, I think most disorient and incapacitate effects are rarely used in PVE of consequence. Repentance and Chastise are two examples that come to mind. Gouge might be an exception - but I imagine all fights that are interesing exclude it as well.

If you're including silence effects in general, Arcane Torent probably applies since pretty much anything over 5 man content is going to be immune... certainly, all of the interesting fights. Though the side effect (mana, energy) is still a bonus.

Also, Vindication - it's a proc ability, but not terribly effective in PVE.

Question - I'm assuming that we're talking about PVE raid bosses, right? Really, we're not discussing very contrived examples of trash, or even trash clearing in general. Is that correct?

 

Sando

Yeah this is exactly what i mean, basically you can't use it to interupt most boss abilities. TBH i only raided into SSC on my Shadow Priest, but things like Juliet's heal is one that a priest can't stop, but i could silence the healing add on Maulgar, depends on the boss, but a boss where interupting is a major part of the fight, priest silence rarely if ever works. The same applies to hunters silencing shot.

Diminishing returns is also a good example, certainly has no impact in raiding while having a huge impact in PVP.

As to whether we talk about trash as compared to bosses, i suppose that's something that should also be discussed. If abilities were buffed to trivialise trash then that's probably not a good thing. The main concern should probably effects on boss encounters, but if it's a huge change to PVE trash, then that should also be mentioned.

 

Chirality

I have *always* thought that the biggest source of balance issues in arena with druids and now rogues was a result of the rediculous out-of-combat mechanic.

Blind -> restealth -> sap combos, for example, drive me insane, as does a root, run and shadowmeld.

However, keeping characters in combat for duration of hots/dots seems like a poor choice to me. Would this apply to Faerie Fire, for example? That lasts a very long time. Or even 2-piece T5 Regrowths for a druid last 24 (?) seconds. A solution like this would just destroy a few spell's viability in arena.

I would simply prefer that the time it takes to drop combat be increased to longer than current crowd control effects. Say, making it take 11 or 12 seconds instead of 8 to drop combat. That would remove the blind->sap, root -> drink, poly -> drink, etc.

Changing how combat drops clearly only changes PvP, as PvE combat is completely different--though changing the latter would have some interesting side effects, too. Imagine not healing for 8-12 seconds and being able to drink or restealth! But I digress...

 

Sando

Yeah, i can see your point with it maybe being overly harsh, but the reason that i suggested HOTs keeping you in combat is due to Druids having a huge advantage over other healers in that they can effectively continue healing while being out of combat, or at least while they get themselves out of combat. I think it's one of the reasons that they're currently over-represented in small-scale arena. Making it so it takes you longer to get out of combat would basically equally nerf all healers and to a lesser extent DPS, and probably give an indirect nerf to hunters, as the one class that can basically drop combot on demand.

Anyways, it's probably best not to digress this early into the amount of nerfs that should be given to each class and how, suffice it to say, that's my reasoning behind it, it could very well be way off mark and way too big, but it's something to think about and maybe tinker with. I think we can agree that OOC mechanics are definately something that can be worked on in PVP without affecting PVE.

Rogues themselves have a bunch of abilities that play only a minor role in 5 mans, and an even smaller role in raids, that being stuns. Changing these would seem to be a decent option for nerfing/buffing them without chaning their PVE viability.

The other thing to think about is talents that can be changed without really effecting PVE due to the tree itself not being viable in PVE. Deep Discipline for priests and deep Marks for hunters are 2 trees that are rarely used in PVE, but often used in PVP, changes here will also be viable options for changes without effecting PVE. However this is riskier, as too much changes to these specs could make them more viable to the point that they are better than other specs, and it also means there is a greater chance of pigeon-holeing those specs as PVP only.

 

Chirality

Part of the problem with 'balancing PvP abilities' is that Blizzard has shown a great reluctance to make individual trees *only* suitable for PvP and, to a lesser extent (Prot), PvE.

For example, on my PvP-alt priest, I can heal in Karazhan very successfully as a 41/20/0 spec--does this mean that the spec is viable for high-end raiding? Not really. But what it *doesn't* indicate is that the spec is useful *only* for PvP. I agree with you when you say that what we don't want is more pigeon-holing of specs in Arena, especially for more 'Hybrid' classes like Priests.

The Disc tree is a good example of PvP vs. PvE balance nonetheless. Focused Will and neo-Pain Suppression made the Disc tree the only real choice for PvP overnight (2.3 patch), but did absolutely nothing to affect PvE. Does the more recent change to Power Infusion, for example, at all change anything to a high-end raider? Of course not--but it does a little bit for a 'low-end raider'. I use it every time it's up when I farm badges in Karazhan, even if it's just to make Prayer of Healing a bit cheaper.

This gets more complicated though, when we talk about trees that are used by both PvP and PvE specs. Arms warriors, for example (I change all of 8 points when I respec), or Elemental Shaman (who often change only one point), or Resto Druids (who could change only a few). For these class/specs, Blizzard has essentially 'resorted' to making PvE- and PvP- specific talents: for example, Natural Perfection (PvP), Blood Frenzy (PvP), Second Wind (PvP).

It's effective, for sure. But are these PvP-only or PvE-only talents really what we, as players, want? I'm not so sure. Some things are unavoidable at this point (a prot warrior will never be truly useful in PvP), but others are borderline (a Disc Priest, if they had a few changes, could become a useful 'support' buffing class/spec in PvE).

 

thevidon

This isnt unavoidable. I would love to see them add some pvp specific mechanics which allows prot warriors to be useful. Maybe a tier 5 talent that gives a 20/40/60/80/100% buff to your target upon intervene and diverts any incoming damage to you for 15 seconds. There are a ton of things they could do to make prot warriors workable in arena.....but not a damn thing is going to change for them until they give them some mechanics to force the opposition to start hitting them.

Or something like "Tunnel Vision" as a high level prot talent that would force a target you intercept to target you for the next 10 seconds. They dont have to be given DPS, that is a crappy solution. However, I think it would be awesome to see prot warriors become a support class in arena.

 

Machinator

I agree they could make all classes have roles like this, and it could work very well. It could also make things very complicated and ruin it. Since they said they wont be making all specs viable for arena they probably just dont think its worth doing at this point.

The issue with talents is a question of how effective they are at both roles. Why would anyone be a destro warlock if SL/SL could do the same raid dps?

"Information is ammunition."

 

crimsonsentinel

Lack of model collision is one of the major factors that prevent prot specs from succeeding in wow, and there's no way thats going to be changed.

 

thevidon

I'm not following you. How is collision detection the issue? I am going to assume you mean you feel the need for prot warriors to "get between" the attacker and the target physically, which is not at all required to protect them. Would my ideas above address your concerns?

 

Amera

Well, just to use Guild Wars as an example, you can effectively "body block" people from getting to your squishies just because of raw collision detection. Rangers can use pets to do the same thing.

However, I think the "intervene" type of protection is a cool idea that would add a really interesting dynamic to arena. I'd actually like tanking to be more like this in PvE, too, but that will never happen in the game's lifetime most likely. Basically forcing a mob to attack you because it can't get to anyone else, or because your abilities divert damage, etc rather than because you pressed taunt and devastate.

As for general PvE-only abilities, they have made it clear they don't like doing this or plan to do it. Many other games have skills that only work in one environment or another. It really is a shame, because it would open up a lot of possibilities.

 

thevidon

My idea was strictly for the pvp environment. It would be easy to do this when adding skills because you can just have them from the beginning only effect PCs and not mobs.

Adding stuff along these lines would really open up some cool options in arena play. It still wouldnt help them much in small scale play I dont think (definitely not 2's, maybe 3's depending). However, it would really make for some interesting combos in 5v5.

 

Vandermonde

It's possible prot could be retrofitted to have a lot of ways to close distance and extreme control over someone's movement and casting ability while you're in their face to accomplish "tanking" in pvp. Again, it won't happen, but collision detection isn't necessarily the only way to make a resilient lightning rod that doesn't do much damage/healing pvp viable.

 

woeye

Another difference between Guild Wars and WoW is the fact that in Guild Wars both players and mobs use the same mobs (though mobs use a stronger version). Furthermore there is no such thing is "immune". This is what really strikes me most in WoW's PvE. The AI, tank/spank/heal setup and the spell system is so different from PvP that PvE is an entire different game.
If the AI tried to be more PvPish and if instances weren't all about tons of trash mob with some big bad bosses it would be easier to balance the game between PvP and PvE imho. And PvE would be way more demanding and not just mindless button spamming like it is today ;-)

 

Elerion

They were under the bridge!




Sorry, I had to do that.

 

nfw

A lot of PvE happen outside of raids, some of the abilities you listed do get a lot of use in 5 man or solo content, like fear, silence, scatter shot.