While Season 3 is still going strong, we wanted to announce ahead of time the rating requirements that will be present for arena items once Season 4 begins. We also wanted to give everyone a heads up to some changes that will be in an upcoming patch, altering how points are gained and players are matched in the arena system. The patch with these changes is scheduled to release before the start of Season 4.
First though, the rating requirement changes:
When Season 4 begins, Season 3 items will be reduced in personal and team arena rating requirement to:
Shoulders: 1950
Weapon: 1800
The new Season 4 items will have the below personal and team arena rating requirements:
The Season 2 items, which will move to the honor system when Season 4 begins, will continue to have no rating requirement.
The changes to the rating requirements for these items reflect the nature of the items, their power, and the relative difficulty that should be had when attempting to obtain them. These items are comparable to those found in the newest 25 person raid zone, Sunwell Plateau, and should therefore also feel very challenging to obtain.
To help ensure that the challenge in obtaining these items stays true to those achieving these ratings, we'll also be implementing new rules with an upcoming patch to curb practices that undermine the core concepts of the arena system. These rules are as follows:
* If a character’s personal rating is more than 150 points below the team rating, they will earn points based on their personal rating instead of the team rating.
This means that a player cannot join a highly rated team and begin earning points based purely on the pre-established rating of the team before they joined it. They'll need to compete, improve, and gain a personal rating worthy of the points they would receive.
* If the average personal rating of the players queuing for a game is more than 150 points below the team’s rating, the team will be queued against an opponent matching or similar to the average personal rating.
This means that players cannot join a highly rated team and immediately face highly rated opponents, easily and quickly bringing their personal rating up. Instead they'll need to again compete, improve, and earn their rating.
We're excited to see these changes implemented, which will continue to emphasize the strong competitive nature of the arenas, and the challenge in obtaining the highest end rewards available for PvP.
I logged in last night to do the pvp daily, only to see a Shaman with his Season 3 Elemental shoulders, followed by 0 other epic quality items. I think the changes will be welcomed by the more active portion of the arena community, but I think it will put a damper on a lot of casual teams who tank lower ratings.
As far as the changes to honor gear, I completely agree with them. Being able to jump from netherstorm quest greens into "Sunwell Equivalent" loot is pretty ridiculous.
I wonder if perhaps an unintented side effect of this might be a surge in arena activity. There are quite large amounts of people who don't really have the kind of mentality needed for a successful arena team, yet who do spend a lot of their time farming, say, Alterac Valley for the nice honour items who suddenly lose incentive to do this. I suspect the amount of 'free', i.e. no rating required, gear is enough to last all but the most dedicated players without arena teams so I reckon it won't be a problem, yet there probably will be people new to arenas trying their luck once more just for the promise of ilvl 155+ epics.
edit; fear there's another thread for this in public discussion. >.>
Good change for arena gear.
Dont know about honor items, not everyone plays arena who plays bg. Not enough thought of from Blizzards side imo.
The honor gear is being used in the arena, in BGs and in casual PvE as they have very solid item levels and are easy to attain by yourself. Blizzard is just removing another aspect of "PvP to PvE" just on a smaller level. I like it.
I really believe it's time for a permament ladder system. Higher rating requirements are ok. But Team Selling, Win Trading and other abuses are not ok. You cannot introduce such rating requirements when the system is full of flaws.
If they want to add "competitive" rating requirement they should implement a competitive enviroment as well. Playing as a starter team against fully geared S3/4 teams is retared, sorry to say that. In every competitive sport on our planet there's a permanent ladder system. You start at the bottom and fight your way up. Every starter team get's a fair chance to train up and improve their skills on their way up.
Yes, most of the 2k+ rated players do have more skills. That is perfectly ok. But it makes really no sense to let those players play against newbies for points.
Good change, late implementation. People have become too complacent with the current welfare epics situation and I honestly didn't expect them to address this before WOTLK, but it's pleasent to see this change. Definately something to work towards now, no more "10 games a week for points" syndrome.
If you are fully geared in S3 already, fine. OF course players like you do welcome the change. Locking out new players and keeping the stuff for youself. But there will hardly be a reason for new players to play arena. In order to get better you gear you need the rating. But without that gear you will get ripped appart by fully geared teams.
I am not against rating requirements in general. But implementing those without addressing Win Trading, Team Selling and proper class balancing is not the way to go imho.
They did make changes that will curtail point and team selling. Why buy a 2000 rated team if you're going to get your points from your 1450 personal rating? There's isn't much they can do about win trading other than having a good reporting setup on the backend and reviewing suspicious activity. They have been slowly addressing class balancing. I haven't heard many hunters complaining about the Aimed Shot healing debuff and I haven't heard many non-druids complain about druids losing the 15% speed set bonus or losing 10 yards off Cyclone range.
If you are fully geared in S3 already, fine. OF course players like you do welcome the change. Locking out new players and keeping the stuff for youself. But there will hardly be a reason for new players to play arena. In order to get better you gear you need the rating. But without that gear you will get ripped appart by fully geared teams.
I am not against rating requirements in general. But implementing those without addressing Win Trading, Team Selling and proper class balancing is not the way to go imho.
S3 gear will continue to not require rating and be availible for less points, seems like an easy and quick way to gear up the slots you can't get s4 in.
Though I can hide my cold gaze, and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours, and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable; I simply am not there.
One thing everyone seems to over look when saying "its good that you now have to work for PvP loot" is that PvE unlike PvP is static. And there are two reasons to introduce new gear, first being that it gives people something new to grind for and secondly it stops PvPers being thrashed by raiders.
These new rating requirements don't say "you have to be this good to get the gear" they are saying "you have to be this much better than everyone to get this gear".
This means that while in PvE you can progress through the dungeons its perfectly normal for your rating to stay more or less static in arena since as you get better so does everyone else.
So what happens when people that have no hope of getting to 1700 due to sub-optimal setup or just not being as good as other people when they get all they can from arena points? Well based on what I'll do (being stuck around the 1500 mark due to class limitations) people will simply quit arena on mass. This will set up a domino effect since people that were at higher ratings will forced down the ladder since the easier teams to beat no longer play. Then there is a good chance these people will make the same dissension the last lot of sub 1700s did and so the cycle continues.
Of course the other good reason why this is a bad idea is because why is it ok for one person to get the gear and one person not just because of the class they play?
I really don't get that argument...I understand it, but I don't think it makes sense. Right now, the arena system is very flawed, in my opinion, and as a result the gearing is flawed. I'm in the same boat as you with class limitations, and trying to get a regular 5s team together is not easy due to raiding and non-game stuff. The rating requirements on the gear will at least make it a bit more manageable for people like me who want to move up in arenas, but can't for some reason.
As for pve being static, sure. But in pve, you have to rely on the rng to get your gear. With pvp, you can gain points with poor rating for weeks on end to get gear that is comparable to T6. When S4 starts, you'd be able to gain points with poor rating for weeks on end to get gear that is comparable to Sunwell gear if this rating requirement wasn't put in. Keep in mind that Sunwell has yet to be cleared...it's nowhere close. It's significantly more difficult than T6, whereas the differences between seasons is gear-related (for the most part). It's currently perfectly normal for you to wipe against a boss for weeks or months on end but move up rapidly in arenas. At least this way, we won't run into as many issues of teams fighting other teams that drastically outgear them, and the difficulty to obtain the arena gear will be on par with the difficulty to obtain the Sunwell gear, which is the way it should be.
Of course the other good reason why this is a bad idea is because why is it ok for one person to get the gear and one person not just because of the class they play?
Which classes is this unfair to then?
Unless you meant to say specs, not classes. 50 gold is nothing, if you are married to a spec and unwilling to change you lose your right to complain about imbalances in my opinion. One spec may be more fun to play then another but you should be proficient in your class as a whole and able to adapt.
For example, at the beginning of S3 paladins were basically the red-headed step children in arena. Nobody wanted a pally on their team except in 5v5 and pallys weren't though of as being very powerful. Fast forward a few months and a retribution specced paladin is found on a good percentage of the top teams in several brackets.
One thing everyone seems to over look when saying "its good that you now have to work for PvP loot" is that PvE unlike PvP is static. And there are two reasons to introduce new gear, first being that it gives people something new to grind for and secondly it stops PvPers being thrashed by raiders.
These new rating requirements don't say "you have to be this good to get the gear" they are saying "you have to be this much better than everyone to get this gear".
This means that while in PvE you can progress through the dungeons its perfectly normal for your rating to stay more or less static in arena since as you get better so does everyone else.
So what happens when people that have no hope of getting to 1700 due to sub-optimal setup or just not being as good as other people when they get all they can from arena points? Well based on what I'll do (being stuck around the 1500 mark due to class limitations) people will simply quit arena on mass. This will set up a domino effect since people that were at higher ratings will forced down the ladder since the easier teams to beat no longer play. Then there is a good chance these people will make the same dissension the last lot of sub 1700s did and so the cycle continues.
Of course the other good reason why this is a bad idea is because why is it ok for one person to get the gear and one person not just because of the class they play?
Any class is playable beyond 1500 for sure, and easily past the 1700s as well. While some class have less options, there is generally a suitable composition that will allow you to be competitive in the high level brackets. Shamans, seeing that you are one, have recent become considerably more viable in certain combinations.
I fail to see how the rating requirements will make Arena better for you if your not realistically going to archive 1700 rating.
I see what your saying about the gear being of Sunwell quality so should only be achievable by the best. How ever I don't agree with it.
I assume you feel this way because of the way many PvP items are also decent in Raiding compared to the last tier (S3 comparable to T5 etc) and in many ways currently easier to collect. In which case I whole heartedly agree with you, but unless Blizzard put more useless PvE stats on the amour to degrade its use in PvE (hp5 anyone?) its going to be a problem..
By introducing the ratings requirements though sub 1700ers are going to run out of things to buy in arena very quickly, leading to less drive to play arena and teams dropping out. (currently we have 5 items to collect plus saving for the next season)
More worryingly though it implements a big gear gap between those over 1700 and those below. This may not be too bad on busy arena nights, but what happens when there are only a few teams in the que... Also you will still meet these players in BGs and would PvP with gear you simply can not archive.
Unless you meant to say specs, not classes. 50 gold is nothing, if you are married to a spec and unwilling to change you lose your right to complain about imbalances in my opinion. One spec may be more fun to play then another but you should be proficient in your class as a whole and able to adapt.
For example, at the beginning of S3 paladins were basically the red-headed step children in arena. Nobody wanted a pally on their team except in 5v5 and pallys weren't though of as being very powerful. Fast forward a few months and a retribution specced paladin is found on a good percentage of the top teams in several brackets.
Well easier said than done for hybrids. For instance I'm a raiding enhancement shaman, I'm very useful in raids no complaints there. And I could respec to Restoration for arena, thats not a massive problem either. The problem arises when I want to do some casual PvP in the form of world objectives or BGs. What am I meant to do? Respect to resto every time I want to do some PvP for an hour or so or use PvE gear? Thats going to get expensive very quickly!
This problem is not encountered by non hybrids since while you may not be optimal in raid spec you can still do ok in your arena gear. When a hybrid respecs its almost like changing class, you need to totally re-itemize
Well easier said than done for hybrids. For instance I'm a raiding enhancement shaman, I'm very useful in raids no complaints there. And I could respec to Restoration for arena, thats not a massive problem either. The problem arises when I want to do some casual PvP in the form of world objectives or BGs. What am I meant to do? Respect to resto every time I want to do some PvP for an hour or so or use PvE gear? Thats going to get expensive very quickly!
This problem is not encountered by non hybrids since while you may not be optimal in raid spec you can still do ok in your arena gear. When a hybrid respecs its almost like changing class, you need to totally re-itemize
Or you could find yourself an accomplished paladin and/or druid, and a warrior, and make a highly competitive 3v3 arena team as enhancement.
Anyway like I said, yes that is exactly what you do if you want to take the arena game seriously. You play your class and not your spec. You just basically reiterated the point I made.
Or you could find yourself an accomplished paladin and/or druid, and a warrior, and make a highly competitive 3v3 arena team as enhancement.
Anyway like I said, yes that is exactly what you do if you want to take the arena game seriously. You play your class and not your spec. You just basically reiterated the point I made.
By chance this is what I'm currently doing. Though I'm not sure this is also true for balance druids and shadow priests for example.
Also this is not going to stop people who can't reach 1700 leaving through lack of incentive. And while in my war/sha/pal team I'm building I may well get to 1700 now, when the foundations of the ladder fall away (the sub 1700s) so everyone above them will fall down a notch.
Well easier said than done for hybrids. For instance I'm a raiding enhancement shaman, I'm very useful in raids no complaints there. And I could respec to Restoration for arena, thats not a massive problem either. The problem arises when I want to do some casual PvP in the form of world objectives or BGs. What am I meant to do? Respect to resto every time I want to do some PvP for an hour or so or use PvE gear? Thats going to get expensive very quickly!
This problem is not encountered by non hybrids since while you may not be optimal in raid spec you can still do ok in your arena gear. When a hybrid respecs its almost like changing class, you need to totally re-itemize
Why in the world would you need to respec for world objectives or BGs? I do BGs all the time on my enhancement shaman alt who just has the honor gear and two pieces of s3 and never feel there's an issue, whether rolling in premades or pugging by myself. I would probably be fine in full PvE plus honor gear, the majority of people in the BGs are horribly geared. I survive just fine, and am usually #1 or close to it in damage, KBs, flag caps, flag returns, or whatever role I'm trying to play, with few deaths.
By chance this is what I'm currently doing. Though I'm not sure this is also true for balance druids and shadow priests for example.
Also this is not going to stop people who can't reach 1700 leaving through lack of incentive. And while in my war/sha/pal team I'm building I may well get to 1700 now, when the foundations of the ladder fall away (the sub 1700s) so everyone above them will fall down a notch.
Doesn't that by definition give you something to shoot for? Thus making the system successful?
Even though I’m by no means a successful arena player, I love the competitive atmosphere and the challenge. I know that with practice and a stable team setup I can make 1900 and maybe have a shot at 2200.
And I sure as hell don’t want any free purples, but actually be able to obtain them because I deserve them, because I played well!
Call me selfish or egoistic or whatever, but I believe that if you can’t break 1700 you simply don’t DESERVE a reward. If you don’t down a raid boss, well guess what, he’s not simply going to give in at some point and hand you the purples because he feels sorry for you. And no, there are no classes that are that broken that you can’t get to 1700 if you have any remote idea of what you’re doing. I’m playing a shaman myself (PvP main), and especially shaman currently have a lot of options with every spec. Hell, there’s a shadowpriest in my guild that had to play 5s as Disc in S3 shadow gear because he didn’t have any healing gear - and he managed to break 1700.
Personally I view the rating requirement as a motivator and, like Stoical points out, as something to shoot for.
Edit: Ah, would a mod be so kind as to either move the other thread from the Public Discussion forum to over here, and / or lock / delete on of them?
Last edited by BlackCadian : 04/25/08 at 6:01 AM.
"If teh alliance had shamens, we wud win more battlegrounses" - random ally (Pre BC)
04/22/08, 4:22 PM
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