ceasefire

Honestly after reading all of the pathetic bitching and moaning in this thread and others, it seems like more and more of the drivel that stain the WoW General Forums are starting to drift to Elitist Jerks. Did I really just hear someone crying about losing in arena when 2 out of 5 members of the team don't even have PvP trinkets?

I really think it's part of the human condition to find any sort of delusional lie to help justify one's competency. Newsflash, if you can't break 1550 with any class's *intended* arena spec, it's not a gear issue. The issue is that you are undoubtedly terrible and need to learn a lot of the concepts that govern arena play.

Pick the right spec, watch some videos, practice in battlegrounds, bind your keys, etc. I don't get why so many classes want all of their specs to be PvP viable when that kind of balance is nearly impossible to achieve. You don't see Warriors demanding Prot and Fury viability now, do you?

 

winkiller

I think you're seeing this a bit more uncomplicated than it is.
What is the PvP spec?
Take Rogues, I think most people would tell you that Subtlety is the PvP spec. Mutilate is also viable.
But wait, most high-ranked rogues are combat last I checked.
Then people argue endlessly about whether Swords for burst or Maces for stuns is better in 2v2/3v3/5v5 (same with Warriors)
And then you have the excellent players who easily break 2000 with a PvE Combat build and not a single PvP talent.

Alone the greatly varying skill won't really let you judge. Or at least I've never seen a "spec X *should* be best" - if you can play it. I've seen Fire Mages destroy other teams, but wait - Frost is the PvP spec.

I'd rephrase it as: "If you aren't really good, try to switch to the proper pvp spec first and see if it works better"

 

Zavior

Are you sure about this? I'd say quite lot of those rogues spec out of combat for pvp.

 

Duncan

He's just trying to say, that a good player who knows his class, will be able to adept even to more unlikely talent choices. However, this might work for rogues to some extend. But there's not many classes except rogues where this would be true. Mages and druids to some extend and with proper gear, maybe.

More than that, a rogue with a PvE combat build and a high rating most likely has a lot of PvE stuff. Wich is in most cases vastly better for arena, too. Once again this doesn't hold true for a lot of classes. Possibly only for melee DPS and maybe hunters.

Anyway, this is getting a bit Off Topic *cough*.

 

Siddown

Yes, 20/0/41 does seem to be the most popular PvP build these days. although I guess Combat with Imp Sprint could be servicable. Rogues went from being a class that used to be FF'd, to a class that isn't right now, which is why you see many high level Rogues using PvE gear as well as PvP gear. The thing is, if a team is smart enough to see that a Rogue is Combat and using PvE gear (or even just Mutilate), they tend to switch and just burn him down. Prep and Cheat Death make Rogues not worth focusing early.

The point the person I believe was making is that Rogues have more than one viable spec, which is true, but at the same time it's also cherry picking an answer to prove his point. Most classes have one dominant spec (Mages have Frost, Druids have Resto, Warriors have Arms, Paladins have Holy, etc.) with some having viable offspecs (Druids with Boomkin comes to mind as does Mages with Arc/Fire POM Pyro and Ret Paladins).

With the exception of Hunters (who really are kind of in limbo right now), every class has at least one viable Arena spec. They really just need a way for players to be able to swap out purchased PvP armors so they can respec without all their previous gear becoming useless, but that has been mentioned before and it appears Blizzard doesn't agree.

 

Warmike

While I certainly agree that raiders and top end PVPers should be rewarded with 'loots' that casuals can't attain per se, I would hope there could be other achievements or ways for those special players to stand out without making a large (majority?) portion of the PVP market get little to no upgrades for an entire season. As it stands, anyone under 1500 will basically play an entire season with very few rewards. Blizzard doesn't push away casual PVErs, so why are they risking this with PVPers? So casuals/semi-hardcores that are in T4 epics can get T5/6 gear through badges...but the same type of players don't deserve more than a couple PVP upgrades in S4?

I know what my rankings are right now (I only really 2v2 anymore), and I've complained enough in my last couple posts, but I say the above as someone who will most likely get into 1700s easily next season since my wife leveled a resto druid. We've jumped up 100 points in 1 week with her in blue gear, so I can only imagine as she gets better gear and pratice. But I will feel sorry for my lower-skilled friends that will not break 1500...I know they are going to stop PVPing all together. There's just no incentive for them to get beat upon each week.

 

Siddown

To make the game fun for everyone, I do agree that the 1500 and below bracket do need some sort of carrot dangled in front of them, even if the carrot is a long way off. They could just add a sliding scale to prices for items that Blizzard has slated as "Rating X Require". The higher the rating required, the steeper the sliding scale. So if someone at 1400 wanted their shoulders that bad, they'd have to pay 5000 points for it, and the MH would cost 4500, something like that. Therefore, if the season went long enough, I guess anyone could lose their way to epics, but if the season was a reasonable length, then the player would need to make a decision: "Do I save up the entire season for my S4 2H Mace, or do I get all the 'ratings' free items?" People at 2250 don't have to worry about this as their weapons/shoulders/whatevers don't cost nearly as much.

Win/win?

 

ceasefire

Pertaining to the "carrot":

You either have 4/5 season 3 and points to spend or you don't, right?

If you have 4/5 season 3, you can't complain about a gear gap. Your gear is more than good enough to compete. If you don't have 4/5 season 3, the proverbial carrot is the ability to get more pieces of season 3 (in season 4) that should be huge upgrades to your quest blues and level >115 epics.

Even players who have 4/5 season 3 that can't crack 1600 have incentive to play in the new system. Take the example of a player like Bill, a level 70 Holy Priest with the Merciless Weapon/Off-Hand. Continuing in season 4 gives him the chance to push to 1600+ and also pick up interesting items like the different off-hands, wands, and Shadow gear.

There are plenty of guilds that haven't tried Hyjal and killed a boss like Rage with ilvl 141. There are plenty of players who haven't even killed Zul'Jin and Hex Lord. Why should ilvl 150+ with less time requirements and investments be easy to get? We might be spoiled by the system up to this point.

Edit: Also, even the Rogue response is semantics to a certain degree. The specs that Rogues choose are largely based on their weapons. But almost everyone will agree that at the moment, Subtletly is the *PvP* spec. Mutilate and Combat still work, but this is largely more of an extension of the fact that the three specs all contribute to the same PvE role (dps) and that all Rogues have the abilities such as Sprint, Kidney Shot, Deadly Throw, and Cloak of Shadows that enable success in PvP.

 

Baaphomet

I recently levled a rogue to 70. Now, I find myself stuck in a position where I'm wondering if I should spend my honor points to get weapons/gear now or wait. Once season 4 begins, the season 2 gear will be made available from vendors as it will replace the season 1 gear. Basically, I don't want to buy season 1 gear when it's going to become obsolete once season 4 begins, but I also don't want to be in my current gear for longer than I have to be. Any suggestions or advice?

 

Valerian

1500 is actually supposed to be the "average" rating level. Now considering you can create new teams if you drop too low the average is likely a bit higher. But saying if you cannot break 1550 that you are "terrible" is pretty condescending. Remember, arena rating is not absolute indicator of skill, it is a relative one. 2000 in one battlegroup may have the same playskill as 2400 in another battlegroup, depending on each group's competition level.

The flaw that I'm sure has been brought up, is that using an absolute value for the requirements when the rating itself is not an absolute value can be problematic. Depending on how many people stop playing in arenas, without win trading or other exploitation of the system it may very well not be possible to reach the required team rating to get some items, depending on your battlegroup.

Frankly the requirements on items should be like the the way they determine the titles/mounts at the end of season. A % of the battlegroup/realm should have access to the items. This way you at least don't get penalized for scrubs NOT playing.

 

Maynard

Well, Blizzard is basing season releasing based off PvE progression - given Kil'Jaeden is now dead, there's not really a whole lot more breathing room for Blizzard. I'd definetly be saving my honour and picking up Season 2 gear as Season 4 can't be too far off now.

If you are capped, however, the following purchases are worthwhile: 40k PvP trinket, Season 3 Ring, Season 3 boots (As S4 will require 1700 rating). You could also consider off-spec/situational gear.

Edit: I might also add briefly, with the discontent of coming up against "shoulders" teams at 1800 - you only need to be 2000 once to get shoulders. Most people with shoulders aren't 2k-quality players, they're 1850-1900 players who hit a lucky streak one night (or win traded) and got their shoulders. People in the 1800s shouldn't be intimidated by players with shoulders, as there is a very good chance they're only marginally better than you are.

So much of the game is psychological, and if you hit the panic button (or the "this game is unfair" button) any time you see shoulders or "Duelist" - then yeah, you're going to lose. Playing Warlock/Druid I had nerves hit me any time we came up against Hoodrych's team in 2s, and although he didn't do anything in particular, I lost my game and managed to get RNGed down by him alone (using a sword, I might add).

 

Saraya

I'm actually surprised that people constantly forget this fact. I guess all but 78 teams on the tournament realm are terrible as well, and surely even the #2 team doesn't even deserve a helm. World of Warcraft Arena Ranking | SK Gaming

At this point, you can have a full set of S3/S2 items, and have enough banked for the requirementless equipment in S4. Any teams which cannot break 1500 have no incentive to play. Will all of the sub 1500 teams quit? Of course not. But to ignore the impact quitting teams will have is just... ignorant.

People will be happy to play and lose if they get something out of it. People will not be as willing to play and lose if they get nothing out of it. It's not the same as arena, but don't forget what happened to Alterac Valley queue times on some battlegrounds. That was only 1 patch ago.

I don't think the concept of requirements on all items is bad, but I think the outcome with the current plan will be very interesting. 2200 points for shoulders is going to be killer on some smaller battlegrounds, and may even be unreachable on bigger ones if enough people stop queueing.

 

Siddown

Double posted like a moron. Please ignore.

 

Siddown

What is frustrated about posts like this is you don't seen to understand how Arena Rankings work, but yet use them as "proof" in arguements.

Listen, if you started S4 but only let the cream of the crop play (say those at 2200+ in S3) and didn't let them start new teams, then yes, many teams would struggle to break 1600 because you are in a closed system with teams all of the same skill level.

But since the Tournament Realm is a completely different animal than regular WoW, and this is the part some people are forgetting, that isn't happening when S4 starts. When S4 begins, you will have a tonne of really bad players playing, making 1550 just as easy as it was/is in S3.


I think assuming that everyone has their Arena Points and gear maxed out is just as ignorant. Will teams quit? Yes, of course they will, but yet new teams will form. People will join a 5v5 to help out their guildies, people will re-roll flavor of the month classes or due to WotLK approaching. People have alts. Assuming that everyone surfing the 1500 rating mark has full S3 already is just plain silly, because they don't. While doing some Arena with my druid (not one piece of S3), I complain about facing teams in full S3 at 1500, but those are the teams I remember, 80% of the teams are either in PvE gear or in Blues/S1 just like me (hell, even greens).

Will some teams quit by the middle of S4? Without a doubt, but then it doesn't matter. Only starting the season with a limited amount of equally skilled teams (like what happened with the Pay-tp-Play Tournament Realm) will have a significant impact on overall distribution of scores within the Battlegroup.

I'm sorry, I have to agree with ceasefire, as harsh as it sounds if you can't break 1550 in at least one bracket with an intended Arena spec of your class, then you are the problem.

 

RaKazu

Alright then, Arena has a lot of individuals who are the problem. Now comes the question, what keeps those problem individuals playing when they have their unrated gear? What incentive do they have to get their heads kicked in every week? Are there going to be enough new teams/players interested in arena in Season 4 to fill the holes when the sub 1550 teams start abandoning ship because there is nothing left for them to buy with their points. That is the major flaw/issue that I see coming up in S4.

 

mofidik

That has been answered plenty times if you had read atleast one page back. But because WoW is a carebear game, I'll lay this one out for you aswel:

Learn to play, it's actually fun to get better, getting free loot isn't.

 

Siddown

First you are assuming everyone has full S3, which they don't. So they can buy everything that doesn't require a rating in S4, and fill out their S3 gear. Now, since there shouldn't be nearly as many re-rolls, they might have a shot to get 1600 (because 20%=30% of their games where they are face rolled by point sellers no longer happen), meaning it opens more gear. Also, they aren't getting their head kicked in every week, they are winning as much as they are losing to stay at 1500, so why would they be getting discouraged?

All it takes is 1 more win than a loss each week to slowly work their way up to new and better gear.

Listen, I'm not some elitiest 2200+ player who doesn't want people to get gear. I have peaked at about 1800-1850 back pre-HARP with this Rogue, but I barely even worked for it and I am an average PvPer at best. I honestly think if anyone specs a proper spec and wears PvP gear (including the new Blue Rep Rewards), they'll get 1700.

A perfect example is in EotS yesterday I repeatedly fought a T6 + double Warglaives Combat spec'd Rogue and repeatedly kicked his butt. I'm in Blues, S1 and S2 gear with Green Gems (one Epic), the Spirt Shard Meta and only two enchangts and yet he never stood a chance. I know, Rogue v Rogue is all about the opener, but it just showed that Spec + PvP gear > PvE Gear and Spec. Thankfully for most, a lot of people playing at 1500 or so are PvE spec'd with PvE gear and are ripe for the picking.

 

RaKazu

This is perhaps true, in certain server/battlegroups. It certainly has not been my experience on Reckoning. Playing in the 1500-1600 level I see more peeps with their S2 shoulders than not it seems. Without a doubt, some of them are rerolls and high rated teams playing kick the scrubs in their non-competitive brackets. Others are just players that have been in arena since day 1 and lost their way to massive points.

Perhaps I should clarify myself. I have no problem knowing I am not a great pvper. I am not and never will be the uber-arena player that wins their way to 1800 in one week. I don't have the time to raid and arena at a high level, RL interferes far too much. I know that certain items, much as I want them such as S3 weapons and shoulders, are well beyond my reach. So be it. But there should be other shiny stuff for me to chase. I have enough points saved to buy the rest of my S3 gear. But what then? Am I too casual a pvper for arena? If so, I see no reason to pad other players win totals when all I get is frustration and points I can't spend.

 

Siddown

I guess we're approaching the beating a dead horse territory with this topic. At the end of the day, we have no idea what will happen come day one of S4. Will there be a mass exodus, that's unlikely, but it also unlikely that people will continue to play if they have nothing else to buy. From what I've seen, the biggest frustration people have is when they get rolled by a team obviously much better then their ranking, if the new system stops that, who knows, perhaps people will continue to keep playing because they are actually progressing higher and higher up the totem pole?

Like I said, we won't know until S4 launches, but likely this is the last season until WotLK which is still a good six months away...meaning it's going to be looooong, perhaps they'll tweak the ratings once it's started.

 

Saraya

Calm down, you're reading way too much into my post.

I obviously have a frustratingly poor understanding about how Arena Ratings work, but I'm still seeing a big issue with low rating people quitting, regardless of whether it's before the seasons begins, or in the middle.

Note: the numbers used in these examples are arbitrary, and something this extreme will not happen. It assumes that people will stop playing if they don't gain benefit from it and basically get beat on most of the time. Again, it is just an example.

If none of the current sub 1500 people join in season 4:
Then 1500 becomes the new "1850", or whatever the average is for teams above 1500. It's similar to the distribution of the tournament realm. The default rating is going to be very competitve, and few if any at all will get past the 1800s or so. This is easy to see.

If the sub 1500 people drop out in the middle of season 4:
Then 1850 becomes the new "1500". The average rating of the teams still playing will stay the same, but the distribution will get spread thinner, as the people on the bottom start losing points slowly, while the people on top will eventually gain those lost points, so people above the curve will actually benefit from this.

But this is a cascading effect. As more and more teams leave the arena, the average keeps getting pushed higher, and anyone below that average will be getting pushed lower. This might cause the lower ranked people, who have capped out at say 1700, to stop playing, and the cycle repeats.

Obviously the above will not happen as not everyone has full S2/S3 yet, there will be new teams joining the arena, and some people do arena just for fun. However, low rated players leaving(or not entering) the system will make it harder for anyone below the average to advance, and this in turn will affect everyone. It won't take a mass exodus to see the effects of this on the ratings.

 

Siddown