Xaev

I think that this is where the S3 weapons at 1800 and shoulders at 1950 come in.

I agree. Though I haven't encountered the problem myself as I have never attempted to play at a competitive level in the arena, the seasons drag on for far too long. There should be an incentive to stay at the top of the bracket throughout the season; not only does this keep people playing but it also helps the integrity of the system by making it harding to powerlevel others through it.

 

Mearis

Stupid question - together with the season 4 honor gear and season 4 arena gear, were any new cloaks from badges announced as well? I am trying to decide if to buy the season 4 cloak already for my alt or to wait for the new season upgrade.

 

panny

No new cloaks announced, grab the current ones.

 

Bula

You mean besides the massive weapon upgrade for anyone unable to reach 1850 rating in season 3 or getting new shoulders, whether they are "old" or not to a lot its still new to many? The carrots are there. If people choose to think that it's too difficult to keep going for the carrot then that's a problem.

 

Zure

I think it's worth holding off on much of this speculation for a while, since we don't know what the average team will be rated midway through season 4. Currently, there seems to be a small net of point inflation, presumably due to teams destroying sub 1500 teams. That could go up quite significantly as rating becomes much more important for low rated players and point selling declines.

Regarding point selling, I have two 2050-75 teams I used for shoulder grinds, two 1950 teams I used for weapon grinds, a 1950 team I trashed early on due to hating the team name, my current team which I will trash due to my partner transferring, and the team I've set aside for a hopeful push to gladiator. That's around 3200 points above 1500 locked up in a single character. Given that I have no idea how to effectively sell rating now, all those teams will be inactive come S4. I can't imagine my situation is highly atypical for anyone that plays a strong arena class/spec (rdruid here). Should this behavior cease or decline dramatically, a major points sink ceases to exist.

Regarding team disbandment, those people playing for 1550-1600 in particular are much better off disbanding a 1400 team and starting over, hoping for some lucky queues, than clawing back to 1500. This is particularly true given the large influx of gold into the economy recently and the lack of remaining gold sinks for many players. More disbanded sub-1500 teams means more points into the arena "economy". If we are really lucky, the reduction in queue times will draw the ultra-casuals back to their 10 game a week arena schedule and combine with an increase in the number of newly minted alts as people exhaust content/prepare for a reroll in the xpac. That could result in a great deal of very low rated teams feeding points for the previously average arena participant.

Of course, all of this hinges on behavioral conjecture, and so we can't know for certain what the net effect will be (sub-1500 rated players leaving the system in frustration, or constantly reforming). In fact, I'm not even sure it is worth speculating at this point. But if you are serious about arena, I wouldn't be incredibly discouraged about any ratings requirement except that of the S4 shoulders, which even under a wild inflation scenario will be well out of reach of the vast majority of the server.

 

Cirocco

Looking at a lot of server top ratings. This rather arbitrary increase in shoulder rating will mean that quite a lot of servers will have no one at all with shoulders. It reeks of pick a number from a hat.

 

ceasefire

I agree with the idea that PR requirements should have been based on percentages, rather than raw ratings.

However, I think they haven't gone far enough with the rating requirements on s4 gear. 1600 and 1700 are extremely easy to obtain for the type of player that has reached its equivalent in PvE (or at least the dedication and skill that requires). On my calculators s4 chestpiece is best in slot for dps until Sunwell (where one or two drops surpasses it). This PvP chestpiece beats out t6 from Illidan.

Being able to obtain it for a rating like 1700 is pretty ridiculous.

Also, hitting 2050 will let me buy best in slot weapons for both Fury and Arms (other than the Kil'Jaeden Sword). The Shield is also probably second best in game, for PvE. I'm sure there will be far more players hitting 2050 than looting KJ's fist or Sword Breaker's Bulwark.

 

Maynard

Regarding weapons, part of the issue is that Blizzard decided uniquely with PvP that shoulders should be the best item to preserve their value as a status symbol. PvE, by contrast, has weapons at the top because they have the greatest influence on your character's raw output - basically, Blizzard distinguishes that PvP is more about status whereas PvE is about player min/maxing. From a PvEers perspective, the solution would probably be to make weapons req. 2200 and shoulders req. 2050, but this would be contrary to how PvPers see the heirachy of items.

As far as other gear slots go, I empathise with you that a problem exists - but a rating hike is not the solution. The "problem" is that PvP is characterised by a single season reflecting the entire 'spectrum' of arena content; therefore there are no barriers to entry. It'd be very different if Season x chest required successive upgrades from each previous season, as in PvE. I suppose the solace is that if 1700 truly is trivial, then most raid-capable players will be able to get the rating with a single afternoon's worth of PvP. Conceptually it's a problem, but if it's not a major inconvenience then I'm sure most raiding hunters will just find a friend and get the rating in a single afternoon's play.

 

mofidik

That would be an improvement for established characters, however you have to remember that it would take a ridiculous amount of time to gear up a new character. As it is, it's about even how you gear up for "starting" PvE/PvP (badge gear is arguably better, but fewer slots, honour grind for PvP). PvE doesn't restrict itself to a "get t5, upgrade to T6" system either, because it would easilly be possible to carry a badge geared person atleast through t6. I reckon it's about the line t6 - 2k and sunwell 2k+, talking from a "you can do this in badges/S1" perspective.

 

deadlights

That logic has always seemed odd to me (re: the shoulders) Things like Warglaives, Zhar'doom, BBotB, TotD etc seem to get far more attention than tier pieces... I certainly got way more random tells about my Zhar'doom than I ever got for my tier pieces...Maybe the only real exceptions would be hunters since their ranged weapon isn't readily visible if they aren't in combat or they don't purposely take it out to be looked at. The shoulders thing seems really arbitrary to me. From a status perspective I would have thought helms above shoulders as well.

 

• frmorrison

The issue with Helms is you can hide it (more people than you think do this), while shoulders you cannot. It was not arbitrarily chosen.

 

ceasefire

Honestly based on my dealings with PR selling, the demand for 1850 PR far outstrips the demand for 2000 personal. If someone is selling 1850 PR for 2k gold and 2000 PR for 3k gold, but less than 30% of the customers take the shoulders (small sample relative to one BG), I think it speaks to the status of Weapons as the real, practical desire.

Talks with numerous other PR levelers for different classes have yielded the same "phenomenon." People simply don't seem to care about Shoulders as much, compared to the insane demand for Weapons by Rogues, Ret Paladins, Warriors, and every caster class.

Having a near best in slot item for Fury, Tanking, and Arms (Warglaives excepting) for an 1850 PR that I can reach in one hour of play is honestly ridiculous (rediculous!!!!!11). I think the answer to this kind of staggering, blatantly naked and transparent, forced Mudflation is to indeed increase the barriers to entry.

Historical example: Might of Menethil and Dark Edge of Insanity had immense barriers yet dominated top end PvP. If Weapons requirements were given at the same frequency as Gladiator titles, or at something absurd like 2300 PR, you would see it as a definite status symbol. Any Warrior you find with a s4 Mace Stun actually deserved it; bringing back some of the "glory" to high end loot is a step this game needs to take. I'm quite sick of seeing literally twenty full season 3 Warriors on the server, all outfitted in the same exact skin/gear.

 

deadlights

I'm fully aware that it's not arbitrary. Clearly they made a conscious decision but it seems rather arbitrary in spite of it and still doesn't make sense from a status standpoint. If you were using the rationale that they opted for shoulders because they wanted to give other players a warning that they were up against a supposedly highly skill player then okay yeah it makes sense since you can hide your helm.

But since everyone essentially agrees it was done to set it apart as a reward/status symbol, like titles, whether or not you can hide your helm in that case is really irrelevant. If someone wants to show off what they've accomplished they'll simply choose to show their helm. Just like a particular warrior on our server who raids as prot and pvps as MS but logs on and goes AFK in shat just to be seen mounted on his armored netherdrake with his offhand warglaive on his back.

So yeah.. still comes across rather counter intuitive to me to choose shoulders over weapons or helms.

 

Zure

Team rating is the current metric by which Blizzard seems to want to set people apart. I was the highest rated player on my backwater server+faction for literally no more than a few days (in 2s no less) and it was amazing how many tells I got asking to play with me, etc. Before this, I would venture to say that almost everyone outside of my guild didn't even know who I was.

Given that there are fairness implications for giving the better players a gear advantage over good but still worse players/teams, I think this is quite reasonable -- indeed given the importance of gear to one's success in the arena, it's almost mandatory if we want the bulk of serious players to take the system seriously. To the extent that you are sick of seeing people in the same gear as you, you can display your title from last season, ride around on your armored nether drake, start an exclusive pvp guild with a distinctive tabard, make a name for yourself through videos or some other means.


RE: Shoulders

I think once one assumes that Blizzard wants serious pvpers to have more or less even gear, the decision to pick shoulders makes perfect sense:

Helms are hide-able as has been mentioned, and weapons can be swapped in combat, but shoulders are very visually distinctive and must be on when the gates open.

Shoulders also have a relatively smaller item budget, so it truly is more of a status symbol perk than a devastating loss to not have them. On the other hand, weapons are absolutely vital to many specs' performance in arena and so to link the ultra-high rating to them would hamstring players that couldn't reach what is in some BGs close to the highest echelon of arena rating.

Of course pvp weapons can be better for pve than their pve counterparts, but if you are in a high end guild there are only a few cases where this is true. It was actually very smart of blizzard to give those not at the front of the pve progression curve an advantage in the content they arrive late too by giving access to pvp weapons that are superior to those found in raid instances a tier behind the further progression.

 

Maynard

I might also add that the #1 reason not to have weapons at the 2200 echelon is that teams entering that level of play mid-season would have a huge barrier to getting the weapons themselves. At that level, the marginal differences in skill would be dwarfed by double-digit differences in weapon DPS. Sub-2200 teams trying to make the leap in to the higher levels of play would quickly become very disenchanted, I would think. As shoulders offer a marginal benefit, they're easier to overcome to earn a pair yourself.

Additionally, the problem with weapons also ties in to poor Sunwell weapon itemisation. Kil'Jaeden holding them all might not have been a fantastic idea, and more bridging weapons on the earlier bosses would have been good. As a hunter, the Twins bow is very similar to the S4 bow (0.2 less DPS), and by the time S4 is out and the ratings are settled they will probably be accomplishments of a similar level. If Season 4 were announced tomorrow, it would still be 6 weeks until the ratings settle and by then it is difficult to tell how coveted a twins kill will be.

In sum, I'm content with how the current system is organised. It is certainly sub-optimal, but it approximates a fair and even distribution of rewards closer than any preceding system has.

 

silvergun27

This is exactly the problem that people will face once S4 is finaly ready to go. For every person that will try to push their boundaries and raize their rating by whatever means necessary there are ten others who will just quit because they simply "can't be bothered" to play the arena any longer. We have seen this in S3 and we have seen this in PvE. S4 is even more "elitist" and not only that but it also requires from people that only do battlegrounds to actually get involved in the arena which i find completely wrong.

I have no doubt in my mind that aquiring those items should have some meassure of difficulty to get being the quality that they are but this is the wrong way to do it. Someone mentioned something about a domino effect and i believe this to be true. It will be very much like the arena realms where teams simply strugle to even dent 2k rating. This is not "healthy" competition. This is a mockery of what a competitive environment and a (so called) e-sport stands for.

 

Duncan

Sport is about winning and losing. eSport is not different. If you join an Arena game you win or you lose, if you win you gain rating and you gain a better placing in the ladder. There can be only one placed first, second and so on.

If you are placed 3949 you might get nothing, because you are way to far behind in the score. Most sports only award place 1-3 so arena is quite fair since you even get points and stuff when placed 3949 or worse (note: you can still get s3 stuff).

S4 will become harder than s3, still not as hard as the tournament realm, though, i think. But close. It will be some competiton and if you can't or don't want to face competition arena is not for you.

It really is as simple as raiding goes, if you can't kill bossmob X you won't receive loot from him. Well raiding might be even more simple since 20-23 players still can carry some players through bossfights, even if they aren't that good.
The point remains the same, if you can't afford something you won't get it.

End of story.

 

woeye

Point is, however, there is no ladder-system in WoW. Name me one sport where newbies have to fight against pro players for points? This issue, however, has been discussed many times before and several solutions (like static personal rating) have been developed, so I will not repeat it here.

 

Duncan

I can name you every sport where this is the case.

Example:

Kid A, 15 years old, starts with athletics at the age of 14.
Kid B, 15 years old, starts with athletics at the age of 8.

Both are in the same age group, thus competing against each other in a contest/tournament.

Kid B is 6 years of training ahead, guess who has the advantage?

And yes this is comparable. Since you compare "training effects and experience" with "better gear and experience". Newbies will always have to break into something new.


Don't get me wrong, i don't want to roll over everything being said here. I just started with arena on my druid in s3 with T2 as my healing gear, since i disbanded him after i got him to 70, 2 weeks after BC came out. As you can imagine, i got the hell of a beating. But it is possible to bite your way through to 2k and more, anytime. IF you are capable of doing it, it doesn't matter much at some point who has the gear advantage, since everyone and there mother has at least 4/5 S3 and all vindicator pieces. If you don't have it, you shouldn't complain about gear differences.

And to adept this to S4 ... at the beginning some will have S3 full, some will have still only 4/5 S3 and maybe the weapon and some start a new char with S2 gear. All in all there is and always has been a gap between "hardcore" PvP players and those who only do it for fun, for free items or whatever reason. The rating change will just stop flower sellers, football players and other dudes to play arena for free gear. It will force them to either improve and take it serious or leave it.

Just like Kid B has 6 years more of training, but what if he gets distracted or loses focus or Kid A takes it twice as serious overall, at some point they will meet each other again and then chances might be even, at least.

 

Maynard

I suppose the problem can be conceptualised as "skill inflation".

PvE is structured, tailored, and design to introduce gradually increasing complexity as the player moves through the heirachy of content. By and large player's are moulded from bad to good simply by the experience of content and the contingent reinforcement and punishment it provides.

In PvP, conversely, the curve is determined by the 'distribution of skill' between lower and higher ratings. Herein the issue lies that further seasons have shifted all players further along the curve, even though the entry point (the minimal skill a player possesses at 70) has remained identical. You could call this "skill inflation" and it's a significant barrier to entry for fresh PvPers.

It is a problem for incentivising arena participation for casual players. For those without the time or inclination to cut their teeth in the competitive field, arena will be a constant struggle where the player is attempting to catch up by learning slower. Proactive and agentic learning should not be necessary to enjoy any significant domain of WoW.

--

To return to the sports analogy, the presence of major league baseball doesn't mean that children losing in the little league need to be spanked when they get home. Although a young child will need exceptional talent and drive to participate in the olympics, one would hope there are structures in place to encourage mere participation in sport.

 

Duncan

As far as i understand it, this is not contradicitonary to what i've said, is it? Arena actually is for everyone, "major league" is not. Do everyone want everyone to be part of the major league, or what ?

There are several leagues for sports like football (city > regional > ... 2-3 country wide). You could say "there are structures in place to encourage mere participation in sport." So WoW arena only has one visible league for now and maybe a second and third "sub league" for weapon and shoulders. When season4 goes live you could say there are several more "sub leagues" for those who can only attain a certain rating. If i would be mediocre (and i'm sure i am, since i'm just hitting 2k), it would still encourage me to play in season4 and trying my best to get to the top, whatever the top would be for my level of gameplay. With only around 10 to 15 games a week, i'm playing i can't expect to beat players who play 2s 3s 5s every week at top rating levels. Therefore skill and more than that experience will always matter at the same rate it does for old and new players.

Besides of the question how you actually define "new players". Someone who just bought WoW and got a fresh lvl70, someone who rerolled, someone who had some month break time, ... whatever. Since there will be a vast difference in experience behind a fresh looking lvl70 char.

 

Grigori

How difficult a team is to beat depends on both gear and skill; the team's rating needs to reflect that difficulty. Aside from the start of a season, 2050-difficulty teams should rarely queue at 1550-rating. 1550-difficulty teams with 4/5 S3 toons queuing at 1550-difficulty is not the problem; 2050-difficulty teams queuing at 1550-rating is, regardless of whether the 2050-difficult team has toons in full S3 or toons in part rep-blues.

It is not about matching gear or matching skill; an equal-gear unequal-skill match is no more competitive than an equal-skill unequal-gear match. There needs to be game mechanics in place to minimize mismatches, because mismatches are far more frustrating than gear discrepancies in practice. Highly geared but lowly skilled teams are fine as long as the battle is a challenge both ways. The mismatches are the problems, not the gear discrepancies.

There's going to be a certain degree of players playing toons at ratings not commensurate with their difficulties (a new season, a new toon, etc.), but being able to reset one's rating at will is simply poor design. Blizzard is essentially discarding data gathered from unfortunate but unavoidable mismatches when they can instead use that data to set up competitive matches. Toons should only lose rating by losing and only gain rating by winning.

Having 2200-difficulty toons with 1500-rating after thousands of games played is clearly not going to cut it in the long run.