malthrin

I AFKed about a third of the 30k honor I got on my Rogue this AV weekend. A big part of that was that I got a new book in a series that I've been reading - after I'd had my fill of actually playing, I kept queuing, and just took the mine and then read the rest of the game.

From personal experience, soloing BGs is a lot more enjoyable as a DPS class than a healer. On my Druid, if I want to go retake Tower Point before it burns down in 3 minutes, I'm powerless to actually accomplish that unless I can convince a decently geared DPS or two to come with me. On my Rogue, I can at least give it a shot.

 

solbergb

Should you? Generally 3-1 of any DPS class on another DPS class = gank. It is equally unpleasant to be focused on by 3 rogues or 3 mages or 3 fury warriors.

 

Cwealm

Forget it, you have missed the point completely, in that as the only cloth dps in my BG's anymore and the battlegrounds filled with hunters and rogues, you are invariably the target of choice for every hunter and rogue.

Since you seem intent on missing the point, let's just drop this now before it becomes like the WoW forums.

 

djhbrd

I agree with you (not trying to draw this conversation out). As a Rogue, I love seeing Mages pop up in BGs. I try to use you guys to pad my kills/deaths ratio, but I end up having to fight a few others to get that KB

 

Tiiki

I play in a R/R/D and we're finding it very hard for all the reasons outlined on the first page.

There are basically no easy matchups for us, we're Horde (and I'm a Troll!) and things like Ret Pally / Warrior / Anything can kill our Druid in about 3 seconds. With Freedom and Intercept we can't control them at all, either. Not to mention the damage disparity of Rogues fighting people in Plate. Funnily enough, even as a Double Rogue team we don't see things like SL Locks as soft at all. Lock/Hunter/Priest or Lock/Hunter/Druid cause us tons of problems if they're any good. Between cyclones/fears or screams/fears plus Hunter Peels we just get worn down way before them. Going on Lock + Healer can work but it's far from easy.

I haven't tried R/D in 2s yet (any feedback on if this is any good)? But 2s seems to be completely dominated by double dps teams (because of the resilience and armor scaling issues mentioned above). I play in an SL Lock/Rogue team at the moment, which is interesting. The likes of Warrior/Paladin ruin us, in fact, Paladins are very hard in general, and plenty of double dps teams turn into a lottery of who gets a sap or early CC chain and it often feels more like luck than skill. However, it is a fun combo, even if the margin for error is extremely slim.

So overall I'd agree with most of the stuff on the front page of this thread - the cross section of teams has changed massively. I certainly wear my max resi gear these days (and am specced into Sleight Of Hand), since I very often have a Rogue or Warrior sitting on my arse.

So what the hell should Rogues be doing in Arena these days, with all that Plate around?

 

Humbaba

I'm the same way. I'd rather solo on my warrior where at least I can kill people. On my druid I'm stuck healing clueless sheep and while I can prop up a wave of people, it doesn't do me a whole lot of good when the season 2 heroes decide to go solo seven enemies.

Your problem is gear. You personally have decent armor, but lousy weapons. Your partner has lousy gear across the board. If your battlegroup is like mine you're facing a fair number of people even at 1600 with full season 3 and a good chunk of season 4. The rogues people complain about the most are wearing large swathes of T6 and Sunwell gear and filling in the gaps with season 3 and season 4.

 

Complex

I started playing this yesterday, after playing a plethora of full DPS teams with little room for mistakes (Rogue/feral druid in 2s, Shockadin/ Hunter/ Rogue in 3s, and 4DPS in 5s) I was looking forward to a little more room for error and a bit more longetivity, it certainly gives that.

Although we haven't mastered pulling off a long CC chain while nuking down another target fully yet, it's pretty clear how much CC/burst this comp can put out at the same time (especially with my gear) while still being able to outlast opponents when needed.
It was quite comforting to be able to fall back on such high mana regen when things weren't going to plan, and still be able to pull off a win, especially against a Warlock / druid teams. This is with a 34/0/27 dreamstate druid, btw.

On a different note, I can certainly agree with the mentioning of double healer teams really starting to plague 3s now. We played about 6 differenent teams this afternoon, 5 of which consisted of either Rshaman/Paladin/Warrior or Hunter/Druid/Priest, was a real pain to tank 80 rating to these teams due to not being able to pull off any burst on a single target, but I guess that's something we're going to have to over-come if we're to get anywhere this season,

 

Tiiki

Complex: What's your 3s lineup?

Humbaba: I daresay our Battlegroup is a little less competitive, gear-wise, than yours, but you're doubtless right. I have a pair of S3 daggers (fat lot of use now, eh?) and S2 MH Mace and S3 OH Mace (as you can see). I just got the S4 chest so am pretty well geared other than weapons (I reckon).

However - it's a Catch 22 - I can't get close to the score required for weapons and since I simply don't enjoy PvE at all anymore have no way to improve my weapons (or get any T6 pieces. My best PvE armor is Nyn'jah Tabi and Magister's Terrace ilevel 125 Shoulders (plus some crappy T4)). I have about 10 badges at the moment, but I don't think the top Badge weapons are really worth it anyway, especially considering their cost. Is the S2 MH mace really so bad?

 

djhbrd

Rogue/Druid is very solid in 2v2, especially with a Dreamstate Druid. Against DPS/Healer teams you have the mana regeneration to outlast ost teams, and having 1.5 DPSers helps with bursting down opponents when you get the chance. I love it against Warlock teams, my partner can slowly wear away the Warlock's pet, and once it is at 60% I can switch over and we blow it up, forcing the Warlock to quick-summon. After that next pet is dead, it's generally game over, since the Warlock takes so much more damage and my partner is freed up to play more offensively.

It's also good against double DPS. Against Rogue/Rogue it can be a little tough, you just have to hope you get a sap off and then play very defensively to live through the initial burst. Against other double DPS teams we go crazy early and catch them off guard, since if they get the start on us we have to play really defensively to stay alive through their burst. I really wish I had Perception when playing as this setup, but I like it overall. It's the first DPS/Healer team I've ever played in 2v2 and stuck with for more than one week (Rogue/Mage S1, Rogue/Warlock S2, Rogue/SPriest S3).

EDIT: Get the badge fists if you can. If you were a race that has a weapon expertise bonus I might say otherwise (S2 Maces/Swords are very solid for humans), but since you don't have to worry about weapon specializations as ShS spec you should really just get the badge fists and run with them. I used them up until I got my S3 swords.

 

Complex

It's myself, BM Hunter, Shockadin. Pretty much what we do in our average game is to have me sprint in, open on the nuke target>expose armor, Hunter blows his CDs, while we synchronize an Aimedshot / Trinketed judge + Holy shock from the Paladin, which deals in excess of 4k in an instant from the Paladin alone.

We can kill even the world's best double healer team once with the element of surprise, but the higher rating you get, the longer series you tend to have with teams, and as double healer, it becomes very easy for them to adjust to us and prevent our nuke, and if we haven't killed a target within 30secs of the game starting, we've lost.

We have the potential to beat single healer teams multiple times usually due to them having very little options to live through the damage of the nuke, and the fact we can make quick switches after (for example) a Priest in RMP has blown his PS.

And Tikki, regarding your weapon situation, if there are any good resto druids or disc priests on your server that aren't tied up in a 2v2 team atm, it may be worth having a chat with them and possibly buying a boost to 1800 in 2v2. Atleast with a druid partner he can carry most of the weight of the team on his shoulders and give advice on tactics and "command you" even if you're not comfortable playing at a higher level.

And as stated, the other alternative is to just grind the badges out, they're definately worth it over S2 weaps if you have no alternative.

 

Ngita

When talking about the popularity this season of various brackets. Based on Bloodlust here are some very rough numbers.

Their are 1450 active 5v5 teams above 1500
Their are 4800 active 3v3 teams above 1500

Their are 4980 active 2v2 teams above 1585. Based on proportions in 5v5 that means approximately 12500 teams above 1500.

So approximately 8 times as many 2's teams as 5's.
Their looks to be around 10000 inactive 5 teams.

 

Shroomism

We're running Lock/Rogue/Druid in 3s and did about 50 games the past 2 days, up to 1850. Holy crap you guys aren't kidding about the double melee teams. Last night we got rogue/rogue/druid for three games and then rogue/warrior/druid TWENTY times in a row. I kid you not. Not the same team over and over again either.. different teams pretty much every other game. I guess we know what the flavor of the month is for sure. This is a terrible makeup for us to face, as the only time we've managed to win against double melee is when we either blow up their druid in the first 10-15 seconds, or blow up the rogue and get a good CC chain on the druid. Either way, if something doesn't die within the first 20-30 seconds it's pretty much game over for us.

Needless to say, it got pretty frustrating going against the exact same setup over and over... and over and over. Maybe we played at bad times but damn, I've never seen such lack of diversity in 3s. We were praying for a PMR team or anything else really..

 

Mearis

Heh, the really old school set up of paladin/ice mage/warrior that pandemic used at the very first tournaments is looking really strong right now versus all the double melee/druid teams.

One aspect that is not really covered but I think really important is how utterly unfun it is to play a warlock in a metagame full of physical DPS. You cannot crowd control, burst, counterspell (yeah, good luck keeping a fellpuppy out) - you are basically applying dots to everyone you can while praying for a peel from your team-mates.

It is incredibly boring and utterly frustrating, and you end up being a complete healing soak. This is very secondary to class balance concerns, but from personal experience, a lot of warlocks are completely fed up with how the class plays in arena.

<manly> then my sister calls and proposes the one thing that has never before occured in my entire life

 

What Do I Type Here?

I am noticing a surge in popularity for paladin teams in 3v3 as well. Anecdotally, we see probably something like 4-5 times as many as we saw (even at the end of) last season, but we may have been floating somewhere above/below all these teams.

I can only assume everyone started getting sick of druids and double physical dps in general? Oh well, good for paladins, and I don't mind fighting them anyway BoP is a beautiful spell. I guess the ebb and flow of 3v3 will continue, re-rise of the hunter/lock/priest soon?

 

Scizorz

Ive had the most intense arena pattles in my BG cyclone(eu) on my disc priest than i've had in the game.People are clamering for the gear as fast as possible so theres barely any qeus and im usually outgeared facing druid warrior teams and RRD teams.

 

• frmorrison

I am surprised at the number of people with full season 3 including shoulders in the 1600 bracket in 5v5 on Stormstrike.

I guess point selling for shoulders was really popular in S3.

 

malthrin

I think it's more likely only serious PvPers are even trying in 5s anymore? It seems like a dead bracket.

 

diotox

5s has really fallen in popularity, especially with the emphasis on 3s on both the tournament realm and in other major live tournaments. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see geared teams floating around low ratings in 5s at this point in the season.

 

Amera

I wish they'd run one tournament with full S4 gear and full access to all PvE gear just to nicely display how ridiculous it is in relation to damage scaling. It's pretty damn close to vanilla WoW at this point in terms of burst DPS potential.

 

Davidson

Oh I think it's almost at vanilla WoW (at least in 5v5). 0.75 seconds from 100% to 0% the other day playing against M L H (They run a multihealer 4 dps team). The burst damage is basically getting to the point of unhealable this season, and it's just going to get worse as we continue.

 

xarg

If you're standing out in the open in the 5v5 bracket, none of the opponents are CC'ed, none of the opponents are prevented from unleashing damage (melee tying down a caster, tongues on casters, movement slowing on melee), then yeah you can expect to be bursted down extremely quickly. There are so many ways to stop yourself from being taken down in this fashion.

Comparing it to vanilla wow is just silly. In vanilla wow one person could one-shot another. Not four people one-shotting one person.

 

Amera

Er, it's really not limited to 5v5 at all. While it is a bit of hyperbole to compare to to vanilla where, yes, a pom/pyro mage could kill someone in one combo, it really isn't that far removed. The staple of RPM is being able to kill someone during a kidney shot with a shatter combo + rogue, and that is easier to do now than ever before - particularly with PvE geared rogues. In 5v5, the problem is exacerbated that much more just due to the volume of potential DPS. We're at the point where even a resil-capped druid with 18k armor can die in the duration of a hammer of justice with 2 physical DPS on him.

 

Mearis

Setting up a shatter combo is by no means trivial though - it requires kidney shotting someone while a healer is CC'd in line of a sight of a mage who is not being pressured.

I have a lot more problems with the melee trains than with PMR's setting up shatter combos, but from having played both PMR and melee cleave, PMR takes a hell of a lot more coordination. There is also the non-trivial fact that the anti-mage class, warlocks, are basically completely dead due to melee trains.

It annoys the hell out of me that everyone knows how far out of wack the balance is since all tournaments are run in s2 gear but blizzard's solution is basically 'deal with it'.

Haha, this about sums up s4 for me:

2v2 Rankings - Arena Junkies

<manly> then my sister calls and proposes the one thing that has never before occured in my entire life

 

Taja

oh my, does this mean warrior can't gem exclusively for more crit/damage/ap like other classes who get focussed.

 

Tainter

I played a few games on a Disc/Balance/Rogue combo and double melee teams are a joke for us. Between our Rogue's snares and stuns and dispel resistant poisons (important otherwise roots don't hold), Druid's Cyclone and roots and my dispelling of Freedom we shred them. Their Warrior never really gets into the game and so it's mostly 2v3. I often have time to drink during a Blind melee 1, Cyclone melee 2, focus Healer combo.

I also imagine a Frost/Balance/Disc combo could hurt double melee significantly, but overall I prefer a Rogue partner to a Mage.