Ah, true, I didn't consider abilities that have end-of-duration or on-dispell effects. Those abilities would probably have to be slightly redesigned, tho I don't have any good suggestion how.
This. Rogues have been routinely buffed with new and revamped "tools" that take away what originally were class weaknesses to the point that their only real current counters are equally overpowered classes (ret, DK). CloS. Dismantle. A much easier Blind. Etc. I simply do not understand the idea that a rogue, unlike every other class in the game, needs a way to beat anyone he comes across. This is a very old gripe about rogues, but it's pretty undeniably true, and has been undeniable true since ~ S2 and the original Cheat Death. It would be one thing if they realistically had to choose what to use, but they just use everything and deal extreme damage besides.
At some point, someone forgot the "glass" part of the glass cannon DPS class, and deeper talant trees allowed for blending talents that really were never supposed to go together. Everyone remembers the facerolling that was HARP.
That's not even touching the current issues of Mut damage, Shadowstep Ambushes for five digits or Deadly Brew.
A brute force fix would be putting Cloak of Shadows and Evasion on a shared cooldown - it's not supposed to be an offensive bubble - and either removing Dismantle completely or making it a 41+ in Combat and thus precluding either Mut or Shadowstep rogues from using it.
Your post is full of pointless one sided crying, I wish you would just remember back to season one. Rogues dominated in blues and the early stages of the season / pre-season. Nearing the end of the first season worth of gearing rogues damage effectiveness fell significantly with resilience, AC, and HP increases all around. People started living long enough to get large heals off. What happened to 2x "pom pyro" mage teams? Lasted about a month from memory. Class effectiveness scales differently with gear on a per class basis. The same thing happened with warriors in season 1 -> 2, crap damage to start but as soon as they got into full sets of good pvp gear they started to dominate.
Blizzard, know and stated (2 years ago now?) this is how class scaling works and is intended. They are not going to go removing stuns or the cooldown spam because it simply breaks the class and quite frankly makes the game as boring as go fish.
Mutilate Rogues are stuck using [effectively] the same build they were using patch 2.0 with a few more tools in sub and a couple of new clickies, get over it. Stealth is a joke in arena, Vanish is still broken. And terrible players with 0 resilience are still crying about rogues. Nothing has changed, just wait it out.
Your post is full of pointless one sided crying, I wish you would just remember back to season one. Rogues dominated in blues and the early stages of the season / pre-season. Nearing the end of the first season worth of gearing rogues damage effectiveness fell significantly with resilience, AC, and HP increases all around. People started living long enough to get large heals off. What happened to 2x "pom pyro" mage teams? Lasted about a month from memory. Class effectiveness scales differently with gear on a per class basis. The same thing happened with warriors in season 1 -> 2, crap damage to start but as soon as they got into full sets of good pvp gear they started to dominate.
Blizzard, know and stated (2 years ago now?) this is how class scaling works and is intended. They are not going to go removing stuns or the cooldown spam because it simply breaks the class and quite frankly makes the game as boring as go fish.
Mutilate Rogues are stuck using [effectively] the same build they were using patch 2.0 with a few more tools in sub and a couple of new clickies, get over it. Stealth is a joke in arena, Vanish is still broken. And terrible players with 0 resilience are still crying about rogues. Nothing has changed, just wait it out.
Rogues were actually rather lacking in S1, and their representation reflected this. The most represented classes in the upper brackets in S1 were actually warlocks, priests, warriors, and paladins. Warlocks and priests were considered to be the classes that benefited the most from resilience in BC, and in my opinion their high representation in S1 despite this is indicative that damage is much more of a problem now than it was in the most closely comparable season; the first of the expansion. With 907 resilience I still find myself dying to single dps from full in the duration of stuns or silences.
An idea I was tossing around in my head regarding dispell resistance and the annoyance of having multiple resists on a critical dispell versus how important some dispellable debuffs are to certain classes.. One solution could be to change dispell abilities so that instead of simply removing the (de)buff it reduces its duration by 100% of its max duration. Talents that now provide dispell resistance could then be changed to reduce the time lost to dispell abilities by a %.
Let's say Contagion is changed to reduce the effectiveness of dispells by 30% (instead of a 30% resist chance). The warlock casts Corruption (18s) on a target. It remains on the target for 2 seconds before dispelled. The dispel would normally reduce the duration by 18 seconds, effectively removing the debuff, but because of Contagion the dispell is reduced to only removing 70% of the duration, i.e 12.6 seconds.
So 18 seconds minus the 2 seconds that passed minus 12.6 seconds means the Corruption would stay on, but reduced to having 3.4 seconds remaining. The dispeller could then dispell again to cut another 12.6 seconds, leaving the dot in the negative and thus removing it completely, but then you'd have to weigh the cost of another GCD versus the danger caused by leaving the debuff on for the remaining time.
This is in line with how stun/fear resist talents were changed from a resist chance to a reduction in duration.
This is a common suggestion, but it really doesn't work. Iceblock lasts 10 seconds. Under your proposed system a preemptively cast mass dispel landing as soon as iceblock lands would mean the iceblock last for 3 seconds. That's three seconds where the mage has had no ms effect and just got healed from 20% to 100%. Similarly with bubble - in that 3 seconds the ret paladin just self healed himself for 70% of his hp.
Making mass dispel unfailable needs to be the first step to addressing dispel issues.
Your post is full of pointless one sided crying, I wish you would just remember back to season one. Rogues dominated in blues and the early stages of the season / pre-season.
This is not true. Early TBC arena was dominated by (shadow)priests and warlocks. There were a few reasons for this. First, these classes had always been 1v1 or 2v1 monsters. Second, resilience did not originally do anything to DoTs, the blue and green beams of death included. At the same time, they benefitted heavily from resilience because burst damage was the only way to kill them. Finally, they both had mana drains and thus made a very good 2v2 team.
This led directly to the hard (and cheesy) counter of wearing BT shadow resist gear. This in turn led to the various exploits to determine what you were fighting, and the end of gear swapping in Arena.
Rogues really weren't a threat, or at least, not an unbalanced "crap we die" sort of threat. Cheat Death was useless until Patch 2.3. as it gave a 10/20/30% chance of avoiding damage. With no Cheat Death and little or no resilience, rogues were extremely vulnerable. They also didn't hit proportionately anywhere near as hard as they do now.
Last edited by Talgog : 01/08/09 at 9:03 PM.
Reason: Explanatory
Rogues were actually rather lacking in S1, and their representation reflected this. The most represented classes in the upper brackets in S1 were actually warlocks, priests, warriors, and paladins. Warlocks and priests were considered to be the classes that benefited the most from resilience in BC, and in my opinion their high representation in S1 despite this is indicative that damage is much more of a problem now than it was in the most closely comparable season; the first of the expansion. With 907 resilience I still find myself dying to single dps from full in the duration of stuns or silences.
You are doing something wrong. And lying. (at very least spreading misinformation)
In your current armory 874 resil, 19810 hp unbuffed. A single dps would need to do 19810 damage in 6 seconds or 3301.667 dps maintained for 6 seconds through 874 (10%~ crit chance and 20%~ crit damage reduction).
That in pvp is highly unlikely.
As soon as you add in your own buffs to life, Fortitude (rank 8) 165sta bringing your HP up to 21460. That changes dps required to 3576.667 dps sustained for 6seconds.
Add in A PW:Shield (rank 14) that you should have up preemptively for the stun. (2230damage absorption) That brings your effective damage required to being 23690 or 3948.333 dps.
In a pvp environment you will not see those kinds of dps numbers. bar maybe 5v5 and perfect set up. Which is even more unlikely as people wouldn't be doing single target dps and your team should be peeling better.
You are letting your HP get far too low to be dying to stuns.
Your partner(s) is(are) not peeling like they should be.
The worse part is that is using a full 5pt kidney shot for a 6 second stun and perfect set up conditions for the dps. Which just do not happen.
PS The representation of rogues in season 1 got worse over time, when everyone was in blues they dominated - easily with dagger specs. After a while they needed to switch to a combat build to keep up dps. Which nerfed their OP-ness and burst considerably. Now the specs dps are finally even, don't expect to see dagger burst going anywhere anytime soon.
The same thing happened with warriors in season 1 -> 2, crap damage to start but as soon as they got into full sets of good pvp gear they started to dominate.
Blizzard, know and stated (2 years ago now?) this is how class scaling works and is intended. They are not going to go removing stuns or the cooldown spam because it simply breaks the class and quite frankly makes the game as boring as go fish.
Mutilate Rogues are stuck using [effectively] the same build they were using patch 2.0 with a few more tools in sub and a couple of new clickies, get over it. Stealth is a joke in arena, Vanish is still broken. And terrible players with 0 resilience are still crying about rogues. Nothing has changed, just wait it out.
Warriors were amazing in season 1. Double warrior/shaman/double paladin 5v5 teams were pretty common, warrior/paladin was amazing in 2v2, and they had great success elsewhere too. Their damage was never "crap." Also, vanish bring broken does not make stealth a joke, for reference. It is still an amazing tool, and so is vanish. You also really can't make statements like "terrible players with 0 resilience crying about x" when several people here are actually on good teams, really good teams, or have at least been gladiator(s) in the past and are brainstorming some basic suggestions for workable solutions to the broken husk that is arena right now. Surely not all suggestions are great or even workable, but you aren't really offering constructive replies outside of "lol l2p."
I mean for example, a suggestion like "reduce damage taken while stunned" is not the same thing as remove stuns, or remove CC, or anything silly like that. It might be an imperfect suggestion (Calixtus has a good criticism, actually), but your comments read more like a rogue who is grasping for anything to defend his class rather than a serious counter argument.
Virulence now reduces the chance that your damage over time diseases can be cured by 10/20/30%. (Old - Affected all spells)
Subtlety now reduces the chance your helpful spells, Moonfire, and Insect Swarm will be dispelled by 10/20/30%. (Old - Affected all spells)
Improved Stings now reduces the chance your Sting damage over time effects will be dispelled by 10/20/30%. (Old - Affected all stings)
Arcane Subtlety now Reduces the chance your helpful spells and damage over time effects will be dispelled by 15/30% and reduces the threat caused by your Arcane spells by 20/40%. (Old - Reduced the chance of dispell on all spells)
Stoicism now reduces the chance your helpful spells and damage over time effects will be dispelled by an additional 10/20/30%. (Old - affected all spells)
Silent Resolve now reduces the chance your helpful spells and damage over time effects will be dispelled by 10/20/30%. (Old - Affected all spells)
Vile Poisons now gives your damage over time poisons an additional 10/20/30% chance to resist dispel effects. (Old - Affected all poisons)
Healing Grace now reduces the chance your helpful spells and damage over time effects will be dispelled by 10/20/30%. (Old - All spells)
Contagion now only reduces the chance your helpful Affliction spells and damage over time effects will be dispelled by an additional 10/20/30%. (Old - All affliction spells)
You are doing something wrong. And lying. (at very least spreading misinformation)
In your current armory 874 resil, 19810 hp unbuffed. A single dps would need to do 19810 damage in 6 seconds or 3301.667 dps maintained for 6 seconds through 874 (10%~ crit chance and 20%~ crit damage reduction).
That in pvp is highly unlikely.
As soon as you add in your own buffs to life, Fortitude (rank 8) 165sta bringing your HP up to 21460. That changes dps required to 3576.667 dps sustained for 6seconds.
Add in A PW:Shield (rank 14) that you should have up preemptively for the stun. (2230damage absorption) That brings your effective damage required to being 23690 or 3948.333 dps.
In a pvp environment you will not see those kinds of dps numbers. bar maybe 5v5 and perfect set up. Which is even more unlikely as people wouldn't be doing single target dps and your team should be peeling better.
You are letting your HP get far too low to be dying to stuns.
Your partner(s) is(are) not peeling like they should be.
The worse part is that is using a full 5pt kidney shot for a 6 second stun and perfect set up conditions for the dps. Which just do not happen.
PS The representation of rogues in season 1 got worse over time, when everyone was in blues they dominated - easily with dagger specs. After a while they needed to switch to a combat build to keep up dps. Which nerfed their OP-ness and burst considerably. Now the specs dps are finally even, don't expect to see dagger burst going anywhere anytime soon.
These are only from the last day or so because my main computer died, but I don't think I was really mis-representing myself greatly. Perhaps I'll need to look at these more closely and consider the timeframe.
edit: I'll remember to put my Hateful Ring back on before logging next time
You are doing something wrong. And lying. (at very least spreading misinformation)
In your current armory 874 resil, 19810 hp unbuffed. A single dps would need to do 19810 damage in 6 seconds or 3301.667 dps maintained for 6 seconds through 874 (10%~ crit chance and 20%~ crit damage reduction).
That in pvp is highly unlikely.
As soon as you add in your own buffs to life, Fortitude (rank 8) 165sta bringing your HP up to 21460. That changes dps required to 3576.667 dps sustained for 6seconds.
Add in A PW:Shield (rank 14) that you should have up preemptively for the stun. (2230damage absorption) That brings your effective damage required to being 23690 or 3948.333 dps.
In a pvp environment you will not see those kinds of dps numbers. bar maybe 5v5 and perfect set up. Which is even more unlikely as people wouldn't be doing single target dps and your team should be peeling better.
You are letting your HP get far too low to be dying to stuns.
Your partner(s) is(are) not peeling like they should be.
The worse part is that is using a full 5pt kidney shot for a 6 second stun and perfect set up conditions for the dps. Which just do not happen.
PS The representation of rogues in season 1 got worse over time, when everyone was in blues they dominated - easily with dagger specs. After a while they needed to switch to a combat build to keep up dps. Which nerfed their OP-ness and burst considerably. Now the specs dps are finally even, don't expect to see dagger burst going anywhere anytime soon.
You are an idiot. Dying in 6 seconds in a single kidney is obviously not the issue. It's the Cheap Shot->KS->various silences with no DR that is the problem. Representing the complaints as anything but is either naivity or a blatant attempt to mislead.
I'm really happy about this change, definitely going in the right direction.
Damn. It's like christmas all over again. That removes every CC and snare in the game from dispell protection if I'm not missing anything. Definitely makes poison and magic removal so much more powerful. Paladins didn't really need the buff but the other healers definitely did and that's one less annoyingly random aspect in arena.
EDIT: Oh wow at the sudden death nerf. With that change I think we'll be seeing a lot more TG warriors. Arms' 2v2 viability was practically built around 100 rage SDs.
Writhe, have you even PvP'd this season? You are telling players with a lot more experience than you that they suck, and that obviously they need more resilience.
I have 2 piece deadly/3 piece hateful + every single piece of deadly honor gear. The only upgrades left for me to obtain are replacing the hateful arena pieces with deadly and getting a wand/main-hand/offhand.
I die within a silence every single time in 3 vs 3 - there is literally nothing I can do, I get no GCDs.
You are under this assumption that you can carry over PvE assumptions into PvP - a rogue is not likely to sustain 3000+ dps over an arena match, but if you count an opener, 120 energy to start with, and cooldown usage, then yeah, that clothie is gonna die, and if by some freak accident he survives, he is stuck limping away at 30% speed, with 50% cast speed reduction and a mortal strike on himself.
This. Rogues have been routinely buffed with new and revamped "tools" that take away what originally were class weaknesses to the point that their only real current counters are equally overpowered classes (ret, DK). CloS. Dismantle. A much easier Blind. Etc. I simply do not understand the idea that a rogue, unlike every other class in the game, needs a way to beat anyone he comes across. This is a very old gripe about rogues, but it's pretty undeniably true, and has been undeniable true since ~ S2 and the original Cheat Death. It would be one thing if they realistically had to choose what to use, but they just use everything and deal extreme damage besides.
At some point, someone forgot the "glass" part of the glass cannon DPS class, and deeper talant trees allowed for blending talents that really were never supposed to go together. Everyone remembers the facerolling that was HARP.
That's not even touching the current issues of Mut damage, Shadowstep Ambushes for five digits or Deadly Brew.
A brute force fix would be putting Cloak of Shadows and Evasion on a shared cooldown - it's not supposed to be an offensive bubble - and either removing Dismantle completely or making it a 41+ in Combat and thus precluding either Mut or Shadowstep rogues from using it.
Rogues didn't need dismantle? I seriously wonder how people thought over the 2 years of burning crusade that warriors just rolling over rogues was in any way "fine". Yes, I said it, if you'd expect to just beat every rogue that decides to fight you, you really got the wrong idea of how game design should work. I don't see why classes shouldn't have a realistic chance to beat any other class by the way. That should be the way for every class.
Also, combat rogues already can beat every single melee class out there way, way easier than other 2 specs and also take much less damage. I honestly don't think you know what you are talking about when you say "dismantle should be a combat talent".
What I honestly dislike about most pvp discussions, is the amount of whining about class abilities, without really considering "ok what would that class be now without that ability". Game design is complex: Ok let's nerf mutilate's burst. what now? You suddenly get a spec that can't kill anything. That very spec will already diminish over time when people get enough resilience to survive the overkill up-time properly without being forced into defensive. (that already happened by the way, a priest or shaman just don't go down during overkill anymore at higher ratings).
PS: Why is blind "much easier"? Nothing has changed about it.
Rogues didn't need dismantle? I seriously wonder how people thought over the 2 years of burning crusade that warriors just rolling over rogues was in any way "fine". Yes, I said it, if you'd expect to just beat every rogue that decides to fight you, you really got the wrong idea of how game design should work. I don't see why classes shouldn't have a realistic chance to bit any other class by the way. That should be the way for every class.
Ok, give priests a realistic chance to 'bit' mutilate rogues - you sure you want to go down this path? Because if you argue that mutilate rogues deserve a chance against every other class, then mutilate rogues are in for some massive nerfs, since most classes have absolutely no chance versus rogues.
Ok, give priests a realistic chance to 'bit' mutilate rogues - you sure you want to go down this path? Because if you argue that mutilate rogues deserve a chance against every other class, then mutilate rogues are in for some massive nerfs, since most classes have absolutely no chance versus rogues.
I am not talking about case to case basis of class balance, as I actually mentioned in my post, but looking at the grand picture of things. That shadowpriests do not perform well in arenas, isn't related to rogues. Right now however, disc priests are well represented in cyclone EU at least, which is one of the top battlegroups.
Again, classes [ultimately] should not be limited to what they can beat or can not. You can not argue that "Rogues beat warriors so dismantle got to go". I will say it again: The game design should allow every class to have a realistic chance to beat another. It's really not like mages, paladins, feral/balance druids, DKs, BM hunters have it so bad. (Healer wise, Disc and resto shamans are getting better and better in the last 2 weeks, resto druid still lagging behind).
Also, which classes have "absolutely no chance against rogues" again? Warlocks, enhance/elemental shaman, shadow priests. Who else? So the classes that are generally weak against everyone. The disc priests recently at high rating sure as hell just aren't going down to a mutilate rogue during an overkill.
I am not talking about case to case basis of class balance, as I actually mentioned in my post, but looking at the grand picture of things. That shadowpriests do not perform well in arenas, isn't related to rogues. Right now however, disc priests are well represented in cyclone EU at least, which is one of the top battlegroups.
Again, classes [ultimately] should not be limited to what they can beat or can not. You can not argue that "Rogues beat warriors so dismantle got to go". I will say it again: The game design should allow every class to have a realistic chance to beat another. It's really not like mages, paladins, feral/balance druids, DKs, BM hunters have it so bad. (Healer wise, Disc and resto shamans are getting better and better in the last 2 weeks, resto druid still lagging behind).
You do realize your first quote directly contradicts your second quote?
You argue that 'grand picture' is what matters, and not one versus one, and then you argue that every class should beat another, in the same post.
I am a 'high rated'disc priest, with very good PvP gear, and mutilate rogues shit on me repeatedly unless they get peeled instantly by my partners. What exactly should I be doing that I am not?
You do realize your first quote directly contradicts your second quote?
You argue that 'grand picture' is what matters, and not one versus one, and then you argue that every class should beat another, in the same post.
I am a 'high rated'disc priest, with very good PvP gear, and mutilate rogues shit on me repeatedly unless they get peeled instantly by my partners. What exactly should I be doing that I am not?
I don't understand how those 2 contradict each other. You said "priests don't beat everyone", and I literally meant that "just because shadow priests don't beat every other dps, doesn't mean that the philosophy of classes having a chance against each other is wrong".
I don't know why mutilate rogues "shit on you" if you got very good gear as I don't play priest; But I can just direct you to cyclone EU 2v2 ranking, at which priests have the highest representation among healers, in top 30-40. And as far as I am concerned, in recent days against the teams that I played, priests are certainly not a top rated "target" anymore (not before their partner rapes me faster anyways).
And yes, all of us do agree that damage in general should be toned down in some intelligent way that doesn't affect overall class balance. I just don't see the problem being the "class X", as if that "class X" gets nerfed, they will just join the shadow priest/elemental/warlock club, while the real problem still lies somewhere else (not that I mind a pom/pyro nerf ).
Balance is a zero sum game. First, GC said straight up that they don't balance the game for one versus one.
Second, if they did, you can either nerf rogues to warlock-like-levels, or you buff warlocks to rogue-like levels. Either way, your relative power versus those classes will decrease massively.
Balance is a zero sum game. First, GC said straight up that they don't balance the game for one versus one.
Second, if they did, you can either nerf rogues to warlock-like-levels, or you buff warlocks to rogue-like levels. Either way, your relative power versus those classes will decrease massively.
No, we are not talking about duels. We are talking about situations that you join a game and you lose because you faced your "anti-combo". That was just the dumbest thing in TBC. I played Priest/Rogue back then and we literally never had a chance to outplay a warrior/druid or warrior/paladin team.
Right now we really don't have much chance against rogue/mage groups or have a very slim chance against almost every setup with a mage. That's just equally dumb. Yes it's hard to balance, but I am talking about the ideal world.
The arena ratings should be about skill, not your luck to face the right team.
IF (and IF) Rogues are a class that end up beating another specific class 90% of the time in the next few months, than surely either rogues need to be toned down or that class needs a buff.
I am not being biased in any way; I just try to say that we should break the idea that "If I am a rogue I should beat every warlock, or if I am a warrior, I should roll over the rogues no matter how bad I am".
I played Priest/Rogue back then and we literally never had a chance to outplay a warrior/druid or warrior/paladin team.
What? A priest/rogue team could definitely outplay a warrior/paladin.
If you don't like matches being predetermined before the gates open then why are you playing in the 2v2 bracket? Classes aren't balanced 1v1, and they're really not balanced 2v2 either. The rock-paper-scissor effect is fine in a 3v3 bracket (funny that). Classes are supposed to have their counters, and successful 3v3 teams are designed with that in mind. If we make every class self sufficient (hi rogues) then that takes something away from the synergy aspect of arena matches.
Because 3v3s and 5v5s end in 10-15 seconds right now, and normally the rogues are the ones getting gibbed first. So certainly not very interesting before some changes to overall arena pace, for me anyways.
Rock-paper-scissor theory is really ancient by the way and isn't even remotely accurate anymore. If you look at new spells and talents that some classes got, most of them were aimed at dealing with their top weaknesses suddenly. Now, obviously it hasn't worked well for everyone as of yet. For the very same reason, paladins got proper instant heals, or shamans got a HoT; etc. Classes function way closer to each other as well.
Regardless, before this side discussion starts to repeat itself, I am certain that the days that a class could dominate another in terms of pressure are counted, and you will not see spells being nerfed "cause class X has a chance against every other class" as a reason.
PS: I don't mean that classes should be self sufficient by the way, and rogues certainly aren't right now (not any more than mages, DKs, paladins, druids, hunters are). But you shouldn't get in arena and get beaten cause your healer had no chance against the warrior team compared to you, for example.
Problem is that healers with enough gear are already a lot harder to kill for rogues. As a medium skilled and geared player I have a lot of trouble in killing holy paladins. The main problem is preparation. Maybe preparation could reduce the cooldowns to 30 seconds instead of making them ready at once. This would
Priests have special trouble with rogues because they cannot dispel poisons, which will be a lot easier with the nerf to vile poisons. Priest need a class that can deal with rogues, which is - to be fair - usually another rogue. In 2vs2 we had good results at medium ratings with deep holy against burst teams when playing rogue/priest. Since my priest partner plays holy we didn't have a single match in which she died in the first thirty seconds of the except when playing against hunters in Ogrimmar. This of course is no evidence that rogues aren't too strong but rather an argument that fighting fire with fire may be an option to fight rogues.
By the way: A lot of rogues seem to switch to combat already. With the incoming Armor Penetration buff for deep combat as well as the Deadly Throw Silence this is no good news for priests in my opinion.
Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde
Rogues didn't need dismantle? I seriously wonder how people thought over the 2 years of burning crusade that warriors just rolling over rogues was in any way "fine". Yes, I said it, if you'd expect to just beat every rogue that decides to fight you, you really got the wrong idea of how game design should work. I don't see why classes shouldn't have a realistic chance to beat any other class by the way. That should be the way for every class.
Also, combat rogues already can beat every single melee class out there way, way easier than other 2 specs and also take much less damage. I honestly don't think you know what you are talking about when you say "dismantle should be a combat talent".
What I honestly dislike about most pvp discussions, is the amount of whining about class abilities, without really considering "ok what would that class be now without that ability". Game design is complex: Ok let's nerf mutilate's burst. what now? You suddenly get a spec that can't kill anything. That very spec will already diminish over time when people get enough resilience to survive the overkill up-time properly without being forced into defensive. (that already happened by the way, a priest or shaman just don't go down during overkill anymore at higher ratings).
PS: Why is blind "much easier"? Nothing has changed about it.
Hard counters exist everywhere. Warriors Vs Frost mages is far worse than Rogue Vs Warrior ever was, ever. (Even in s1.)
Also, after s2, Rogues didn't get "rolled over" by warriors, that statement is laughable, at best. You got rolled by one comp, who had an unsnareable healer that could become heavy armor before a stun and had poison removal. Every other comp was absolutely dominated by rogues and a rogue/druid should have been 50/50 vs a warrior/druid in s3/s4.
I mean, if you want to use micro-situation to induce balance delusions, let me talk about Shaman/Warrior vs Frost mage/Rogue...Of course, this is fruitless, because 2v2 had so many hard counters..In that regard, I think one of the best things to look at to see how strong a class was in small scale PvP was how many team combo's could be formed with them.
In that case, rogues were the leaders, by far. A rogue could pair with about 5 classes and easily break 2k, they are the only class that can claim that, and that is because they were and are absolutely dominant in 1v1, which translates well into 2v2. They didn't need a disarm that was more powerfull and easier to apply than any other disarm in game, sorry. If anything they needed something to help them in larger scale group PvP, which their disarm, doesn't really do, because as you said, the down time it creates vs 2-3 opponents is minimal, it is a small scale tool, which completely wasn't needed and frankly pretty obnoxious.
Firstly PvP gear is much harder to obtain than even season 4. Savage Gladiator pieces alone go for 50-60k, about 5 times more than TBC, and honour gains have certainly not gone up as much as that (I suppose a sub 30% win rate in BGs doesn't help). In contrast PvE is easier than ever to the point where people are pugging 25 man Naxx and picking up ilvl 213 epics with relative ease, and obviously these are vastly superior to the blues that the majority of the player base have access to for PvP - partly because of the increased expense of resilience on the item budget. To make it worse people who raid 25 man can buy epic pvp sets with emblems without even setting foot in arena.
Again, compare this to season 4 where it was generally considered that PvE gear encroached on arena, it's become far worse due to the ease of Naxx vs Sunwell.
Secondly even at high ratings where people are decked out in PvP epics and something close to max resilience, there are massive class imbalances (almost universally favouring burst heavy classes and classes with high non gear based survivability) which Blizzard claim it never saw coming.
Frankly it's rather similar to level 60 with TBC talents, same classes overpowered, same classes getting crapped on, same problems. Disappointing from Blizzard. Equally disappointing is that they've taken a step back and not made any quick fixes (they could have at least hotfixed focused mind, 7 second strangulates are good for me), leaving probably the most imbalanced season untouched until it's likely 50% complete at least. There's nothing quite like getting RoV 5 times in a row against triple dps teams for sapping your enjoyment of the game.
So, frost mage vs warrior is "ok" but any hard counter vs rogues is not?
Warriors after s2 didn't roll over rogues, either. With your CDs warriors should have been cake. This is what I don't get, when a rogue tells me it hasn't been fair that warriors have dominated them. At what point after the 2.3 rogue buffs were warriors beating you? I mean, which class do rogues actually have a difficult time against right now? Can you even name one that is a "for sure" win against you"
If you can't, that is a *problem*, because every class aside from DK has to deal with that.
Mages, Hunters, Feral setups all have a higher chance of winning against rogue teams at the moment (And DK's of course). Ret and arms is pretty even, depending on how good we or they play.
I don't think you are catching what I am trying to say.
01/08/09, 5:22 PM
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