Yes, that's why I said since HARP. ShS was almost as good at warrior killing with double evasion. And the person I was responding to was talking about Warriors vs Rogues in general, which includes dueling.
Re: Rogue/Priest vs Druid/War. I must admit I didn't play this comp at very high levels but I still hit 1900s on my alt (started in S3 with 0 gear) and as I recall, the warrior didn't do much damage to me with PW:S denying rage + Evasion. My Priest would chase their Druid with Mana Burn/Fear and if I caught their Druid in caster form it was game over pretty quickly.
Offtopic a bit from this thread, but if the Warrior was fighting you rather than sitting on your Priest and just smacking you with a Hamstring if you looked at his Druid, that's why it didn't seem like that bad a matchup. My alt was a really badly played Resto Druid, and even despite my incompetence it was almost impossible to lose to Priest/Rogue.
Offtopic a bit from this thread, but if the Warrior was fighting you rather than sitting on your Priest and just smacking you with a Hamstring if you looked at his Druid, that's why it didn't seem like that bad a matchup. My alt was a really badly played Resto Druid, and even despite my incompetence it was almost impossible to lose to Priest/Rogue.
I could kill a Druid faster than the Warrior could kill my Priest. My Priest would always drag the Warrior out of LOS of the Druid (obviously harder on certain maps) and start Smiting the Warrior.
Edit: I am told by my Gladiator guildmates that War/Druid is supposed to dominate Priest/Rogue though, so maybe I'm remembering wrong. :P
I know your post specifically mentioned Ret, but what about mana DPS classes? Obviously right now Arcane is bursty as hell and shouldn't be considered, but mana DPS in general. Obviously they're not able to provide the same steady level of pressure without going OOM, so what's their place (to you)? Pressure in the form of burst? Pressure from CCs/Interrupts?
Well, mana is a silly concept that will hopefully disappear in the next generation of games, but for now we are stuck with it, so you're right: it is an issue. Still, mages have been perfectly viable as a burst/CC class for a long time, and I really don't see why that needs to change. They are/were the crux of the burst on the RPM and 2345 teams. There's nothing wrong with burst damage classes as long as it requires teamwork and synergy to work effectively. The other option would just be to allow mages/casters to output a steady damage stream like a melee, but that requires a threatening auto attack more than anything, and we'll probably never see that in WoW.
I could kill a Druid faster than the Warrior could kill my Priest. My Priest would always drag the Warrior out of LOS of the Druid (obviously harder on certain maps) and start Smiting the Warrior.
Edit: I am told by my Gladiator guildmates that War/Druid is supposed to dominate Priest/Rogue though, so maybe I'm remembering wrong. :P
Well, it's certainly true that if you broke it into rogue/druid and warrior/priest duels, you would win (actually, it's possible, even likely, that your priest could simply kill the warrior on his own if his druid never healed him), but you could only do this with the war/druid team's unwitting cooperation. If their warrior gets on you instead of the priest, the situation changes rather dramatically.
The fact is that right now as a Ret paladin anyone can run at someone and hit 234234234234 and kill them without question in one or two damage windows is bad for the game. As much as people bitched about warriors in TBC, in general they were actually pretty balanced outside of mace stun. They rarely just gibbed anyone - they applied pressure over time by doing consistent damage and snaring, and relied on their teammates to both keep them alive and stay on a target. They were an excellent team-based class, bad solo but great with support, which is what arena should be about. Rogues, ret paladins, and DKs are actually poorly designed in a lot of ways because they are far too self sufficient, and it really shows in smaller brackets.
This is not true. A good healer should almost never die to a solo paladin. This is why even with how powerful ret is right now, you do not see ret/healer 2v2s. Paladins are not warriors. Warriors didn't need that burst because they were infinitely sustainable, had an excellent snare, MS, interrupt, etc.
As far as skill goes, remember what the most common ret paladin teams were in the later seasons of TBC (the only time they were viable)? It was war/ret/resto in 3v3, which people often complained was just windfury RNG nonsense or ret/rogue in 2v2 which was all high burst and stuns. Ret's role is a defensive buffer with explosive burst DPS. We can call this bad design but this seems to be the way Blizzard wants it.
I got the expansion late and have been 80 for two weeks and I'm already leery of picking up my ret gear when I could be assembling heal gear. Attaining the balance between DPS being too high (now) and survivability being too high (S4) is difficult and especially so trying to balance a high damage class with long CD interrupts and no MS debuff. So I'm afraid when they go on to fix this, it could end up something along the lines of the holy nerfs in S2 that seriously damaged holy paladins small bracket viability. Luckily I think the nerfs so far have been intelligent -- half damage in DS and HoJ glyph are good changes.
This is not true. A good healer should almost never die to a solo paladin. This is why even with how powerful ret is right now, you do not see ret/healer 2v2s. Paladins are not warriors. Warriors didn't need that burst because they were infinitely sustainable, had an excellent snare, MS, interrupt, etc.
As far as skill goes, remember what the most common ret paladin teams were in the later seasons of TBC (the only time they were viable)? It was war/ret/resto in 3v3, which people often complained was just windfury RNG nonsense or ret/rogue in 2v2 which was all high burst and stuns. Ret's role is a defensive buffer with explosive burst DPS. We can call this bad design but this seems to be the way Blizzard wants it.
I got the expansion late and have been 80 for two weeks and I'm already leery of picking up my ret gear when I could be assembling heal gear. Attaining the balance between DPS being too high (now) and survivability being too high (S4) is difficult and especially so trying to balance a high damage class with long CD interrupts and no MS debuff. So I'm afraid when they go on to fix this, it could end up something along the lines of the holy nerfs in S2 that seriously damaged holy paladins small bracket viability. Luckily I think the nerfs so far have been intelligent -- half damage in DS and HoJ glyph are good changes.
A good healer won't die to a solo warrior, either. It took coordination to bring a healer down, the warrior didn't just go up and smash him. This is why Paladin/Warrior died out after s1, because warriors actually do need help to kill a healer, or else they need to last forever.
Also, there are plenty of Ret/healer 2v2. Go sort Arena Junkies, there are a dozen Ret/Priest over 2k, a 30-40 Ret/Shaman over 2k and a bunch of Ret/Druid. Its perfectly viable, a ret can kill any healer as long as he gets a little help from his partner, which aside from DK/Rogue/Arcane, everyone needs.
I could kill a Druid faster than the Warrior could kill my Priest. My Priest would always drag the Warrior out of LOS of the Druid (obviously harder on certain maps) and start Smiting the Warrior.
Edit: I am told by my Gladiator guildmates that War/Druid is supposed to dominate Priest/Rogue though, so maybe I'm remembering wrong. :P
While things have changed from how they were at 70 (I haven't played against warrior/druid enough to form my own conclusion), warrior/druid was an unbeatable counter for priest/rogue at least in Burning Crusade. While arms seems rather inconsistent in its damage output, fury warriors absolutely obliterate me.
While things have changed from how they were at 70 (I haven't played against warrior/druid enough to form my own conclusion), warrior/druid was an unbeatable counter for priest/rogue at least in Burning Crusade. While arms seems rather inconsistent in its damage output, fury warriors absolutely obliterate me.
I wouldn't say unbeatable, but it was at least 70/30 in favour of the warrior/druid. I played with an amazingly PvE geared rogue, and the match up was still heavily in the warrior/druid's favour unless they played horribly.
I'm pretty new to arenas since I only dinged 70 mid season 3 and was way behind so I'm here with a few questions.
For arena I usually spec frost/arcane because I prefer its playstyle over arcane/fire
I've been gathering some pvp gear and I'm around 700 resilience right now and it feels like I lose simply too much burst compared to the tiny bit of extra survivability I get. Surviving as frost isn't really that much of a problem unless I get caught by a rogue or a hunter and I feel like that extra bit of resilience isn't saving my ass either.
So should I keep gathering pvp gear and stacking resilience or should I just replace my worst pve parts with my best pvp parts and run around with 200/300 resilience while not losing much dmg?
I'm usually doing 2s with an unholy DK and I try to start the fight with a quick deep freeze or poly hoping the opponent will use his trinket or other defensive cooldowns asap. After that I try to wait for a fof proc so I can get a very effective shatter combo with 2 frostbolts and 2 icelances and a silence right after if its a healer. But is it actually good to wait for a fof proc or should I try and keep pressuring the other team with trying to deep freeze ( if it's up ) on any frostnova?
My last question is about pvping with a 21/50/0 firebuild? The success of arcane mages atm is mainly due to very effective burst on demand together with a very powerfull snare which is easy to reapply.
I don't really see the difference with a firebuild to be honest. Fire burst is quite a lot higher than arcane burst, it has many interrupts and can kill any class in a matter of seconds. It's survivability is low but nothing really different from arcane. So I wonder if a firemage could work with a healer, probably a holy paladin for hop? There's definately enough burst to kill any healer with a well timed and executed burst. Or am not seeing weaknesses which makes them not able to pull this of?
As far as skill goes, remember what the most common ret paladin teams were in the later seasons of TBC (the only time they were viable)? It was war/ret/resto in 3v3, which people often complained was just windfury RNG nonsense or ret/rogue in 2v2 which was all high burst and stuns. Ret's role is a defensive buffer with explosive burst DPS. We can call this bad design but this seems to be the way Blizzard wants it.
I got the expansion late and have been 80 for two weeks and I'm already leery of picking up my ret gear when I could be assembling heal gear. Attaining the balance between DPS being too high (now) and survivability being too high (S4) is difficult and especially so trying to balance a high damage class with long CD interrupts and no MS debuff. So I'm afraid when they go on to fix this, it could end up something along the lines of the holy nerfs in S2 that seriously damaged holy paladins small bracket viability. Luckily I think the nerfs so far have been intelligent -- half damage in DS and HoJ glyph are good changes.
The problem with ret pallies in BC was actually their mana regen. They were prime targets for mana burn/stings, and as long as you didn't do any damage to them, they didn't have an effective way of regaining that mana.
Thus, in S4's survivability-oriented game, Ret was simply a melee DPS'er that ran out of steam in the first minute, and needed to drink.
Course, that's changed now in WotLK, and ret pallies not only have higher burst, but sustain themselves much longer. I really doubt ret pally's arena viability will go away if/when burst is finally toned down. All they really need to do is pair themselves with a partner who can cover their weaknesses, namely snares and interrupts (and/or MS effect).
Firstly PvP gear is much harder to obtain than even season 4. Savage Gladiator pieces alone go for 50-60k, about 5 times more than TBC, and honour gains have certainly not gone up as much as that (I suppose a sub 30% win rate in BGs doesn't help). In contrast PvE is easier than ever to the point where people are pugging 25 man Naxx and picking up ilvl 213 epics with relative ease, and obviously these are vastly superior to the blues that the majority of the player base have access to for PvP - partly because of the increased expense of resilience on the item budget. To make it worse people who raid 25 man can buy epic pvp sets with emblems without even setting foot in arena.
You're contradicting yourself here. How can PvP gear be simultaneously too hard and too easy to obtain? Running both Archavons and accumulating Emblems along with honor/arena play can gear out a character very quickly. Much, much faster than BC, where arena points were the only way to get pvp gear for a long time.
Through -pure- PvP, gear is harder to obtain. Discounting Archavon (it's entirely too easy to only see Hunter gear drop when you didn't bring a single one), the blue PvP set pieces are expensive and largely useless. I'm not saying too expensive because I feel the highly increased honour gains outweigh the increased price tag, but still...
The epic gear is harder to obtain than the old versions, simply due to two things
1) higher rating required on them than before
2) highly unbalanced arena play
If you're not a zerg/burst class it might be a bit awkward trying to obtain those first epic pieces.
Ignorance can be solved with a book. Stupidity requires a shotgun and a shovel.
You're contradicting yourself here. How can PvP gear be simultaneously too hard and too easy to obtain? Running both Archavons and accumulating Emblems along with honor/arena play can gear out a character very quickly. Much, much faster than BC, where arena points were the only way to get pvp gear for a long time.
'Easy' is subjective. Yes it's easy to gain if you are either lucky or raid 25 mans, but for everyone else (people who prefer pvp?) it isn't - and if you ask me that's not the player demographic that should be easily obtaining pvp gear.
I personally have been running archavon for weeks and haven't even seen a resto/ele pvp item, nor have I been running 25 mans (it's just plain wrong that they're the easiest way to obtain epic pvp sets atm).
Right now getting the same pieces of PvP gear is much easier to do via PvE than PvP. Badges for the blue gear are easier to farm than honor, 25-man badges are easier to farm than the arena points and rating required, and archavon is easier than all (yes, you may have bad luck, but it's still the best gain per time investment and even gain per week, assuming you don't roll against anyone or at least not more than 1 person in 25-man). Add to that the fact that 25-man fillups are practically required for slots in which you don't have great pvp gear, and that those pieces are better for pvp than the blue pvp pieces in a lot if not all cases, and you get that PvE is much superior than PvP when it comes to PvP gearing, and you should only PvP for the gear that is unattainable otherwise, like the deadly off-set pieces (which still require rating so you need a good PvE piece to start with, or run with the not-so-great hateful offset pieces).
I have posted this on MMO-champion.com, and i got some good answers and some bad answers from unskilled players. I have also posted this on EJ.com, but didn't got any answers on it.
I would like for you guys to check this out. you're welcome to come with all the suggestions you want.
Okay, i'm like many other players interrested in pvp, and have used all of my time playing it. My higest rating last season was 2.3 k.
I felt like the SL/SL build back then was a bit weak dps wise, but still pretty balanced. We could manage it.
Now i feel like blizzard have forgotton us totally, even though I'm aware of the incoming changes.
I'm just tired of getting one shotted, and actually don't have time to react to almost any attack, when I play pvp. I'm focused on PvE at the moment, since PvP pisses me off and makes me wanna stop playing warlock.
No matter how you turn it, we need a defensive spell.
Paladins got bubble.
Rogues got CoS, Vanish, etc.
Druids got Pushback etc (depends on the spec).
Dk's well. They have everything.
Mages have mirror images, Iceblock, cs, slow, pet etc.
Priests, are imba as disc and spriests are a pretty weak, which need some kind of buff too.
Shamans - Resto shamans rock, and enchanment shamans are hard to play but still able to survive. Change to shield under nuke, mail armor helps etc.
Hunter - Got a few defensive spells, traps etc. Really hard nuke and very playable in arena.
They gave us demonic circle, that doesen't work as well as it should. I know they are going to make it possible to ''blink'' out of snare, stun, but. We die to quick, no matter what.
And warlocks will be boring to play, if the abilities get copied from other classes like Shadowflame(dragons breath - mage).
Demonic Circle (blink - mage)
Curse of Tongues (Slow - mage, CoT weaker)
Give us a Unique kind of spell, that place us as a ''Warlock''. The dark caster of warcraft
My suggestions sounds like this (give or take nerfs to it, and other suggestions).
Deadly Wings
1 min Cooldown.
Makes you immune to damage for 8 seconds,
and raise you 20 yards above the earth.
Use of any spell, will break deadly Wings
I feel like this could be a good thing, when they buff our demon Armor, and it will scale good with resilience in the future.
I don't see it as overpowered, since it have same effect as Iceblock etc.
I would like to hear your opinion about my idea, and even some blizzard people to look at it.
As I have calculated it, it should work. Its worth a try in my opinion.
Deadly Wings
1 min Cooldown.
Makes you immune to damage for 8 seconds,
and raise you 20 yards above the earth.
Use of any spell, will break deadly Wings
Sounds like ice block on a 1 minute cooldown. In reality if blizzard give a total immunity ability to another class they are just going to have to give them to everyone.
I honestly don't think this is the way to go, but I definately think both warlocks and shaman need some kind of defensive buff. It's far, far to easy to focus both classes at the moment
--
Has anyone tried the new 'system' enough to make any sense of it yet? details seem to be sketchy at best.
Warlocks are clearly having issues at the moment, and should get some tuning. That said, it has IMO always been one of the most complex classes in the game, and should remain such, even if it means balancing warlock PvP around the few players in the world who can put them to optimal use. IMO warlock was really challenging, complex and demanding back in classic, and then turned flavor of the month for 1-2 years, during which even the less skilled players could get a lot of performance out of them. They do need some help, and other classes need some nerfs, but I just don't think Blizzard should ever simplify warlocks to the point where the average warlock is as successful as the average retridin, rogue or arcane mage.
I agree that classes are more interesting when their abilities are unique, but beyond that I really think you are looking at this the wrong way. Warlocks have a number of potent defenses, that are unique to them, and this game IMO needs less bubble-effects, rather than more. I think we should rather look at where the warlock defenses fall short.
Warlocks are the most tanky of the clothies. Assuming some extent of demonology, they have strong armor and health, +26% healing received, along with multiple potent self heals, 20% reduced damage taken and 3% reduced chance to be crit. There's fear, howl of terror, CoT/CoEx and death coil of course, along with the CC break they're supposedly getting with demonic circle.
As for particularly unique defenses, there are the pets, if used defensively. Fel hunter is -10% spell damage taken, devour magic for dispelling magic CC on self (or enemy buffs), and a counterspell with 3 sec silence. Or the succubus for instant cast seduction. Common to both of these is that their crowd control is fully available even while your enemies have you locked down.
Lastly, there's metamorphosis. +600% armor, all CC reduced to half duration and charge for escape/stun. It's undispellable with 30 sec duration (which is ages in current games) and as a RMP team, we've lost games by trying to kill a warlock who turned out to have this talent.
On paper, warlocks really have a ton of very potent, and several quite unique, defenses. I agree that they are still weak at the moment, but I think it's very dangerous to just add a couple of extra generic defenses to them, instead of focusing on where it is they have issues.
Assuming you have decent gear (700+ resilience, 20k+ unbuffed health), which situations make you feel that you have no chance? How would metamorphosis help with those situations and if you do pass it up, why do you think that is actually worthwhile?
It seems to me that, between recent armor buffs, pet health buffs and continual PvP gear upgrades, warlocks might just be ok by the time rogues, mages and hunters get their burst potential nerfed, even if their sustained damage would increase a bit.
I should add that I'm no authority on warlocks and may have made a few oversights. The essential point still stands though - that pets and metamorphosis are potent and unique warlock defenses, and that Blizzard should rather focus on where those fall short than add a generic defense buff to warlocks (and particularly not yet another bubble effect).
http://www.defendersofvalor.net
\"Never trust anything that a man will not set his reputation and name upon.\" - Medivh
I feel you're sort of falling into the 51/51/51 trap there. If I'm in Demon Armor as opposed to Fel Armor, I lose a flat amount of spellpower, as well as the +damage spirit buff of Fel Armor. They're exclusive and I can't have both. In general terms, to actually have that 26% increased healing, I'm giving up the portion of my item budget tied to spirit from my offense output, in addition to the flat reduction. In WotlK, my PvP gear has crit. To actually benefit from this crit in PvP, I need cast time spells or Pandemic - but even Pandemic only affects the instant Corruption. Compared to TBC, my bang-for-itembudget has gone down without actually offering anything in return.
My cast-time dependancy, the the same cast-time dependancy that was an integral part in making 8/10 warlocks go SL/SL and why Destro was so crap, has gone up in WotlK with UA/Haunt. To counter this, we've got Demonic Circle, which while nice a(nd hours upon hours of fun), does not buy us anywhere near the casttime we need to offer a DPS anywhere near, say, a mage. Even with the snare break, the amount of free casting time I get depends on setup, but mostly it's not enough for anything really interesting to develop.
Anything related to pet's - even with the new HP buff - still suffers from "everything you've ever heard about resilience making it better, does not apply here". It's better now, and I'll have to play around with it a bit to see how much better, but I don't expect it to be "awesome". Seduction also breaks on damage and shares DR with fear, so doing it with DoTs is out, and a Destro specc that uses succubus can't do enough damage when it counts anyway - poor talent synergy on the DPS spells as well as the previously mentioned cast-time problem.
I have to confess I havn't actually tried Meta properly yet, but I'd say many of the above issues still applies, except in addition the previous DPS issues you've got a dead pet - and the DPS loss that entails - to add to the mix.
Having said that, I think a straight up melee-CloS - an idea often tossed around on the subject - is a really, really bad idea. Sure, steady mitigation can't really be balanced in a way that let's you survive burst intended to kill people with health return on-demand "without CC or interrupts", so some kind of cooldown-on-demand is probably required. But I'd rather see a short-range (to limit offensive usage) CC effect or something more, hm, fitting to the warlock class.
(I wrote a small bullet-point list with issues, causes and possible solution's that I posted on the WoW PvP forum after losing 7 games in a row last week. Feel free to comment on any of it, I have a funny feeling it's too constructive for the forum I posted it in to get any real attention but writing it felt almost therapeutic after getting stomped on)
It seems to me that, between recent armor buffs, pet health buffs and continual PvP gear upgrades, warlocks might just be ok by the time rogues, mages and hunters get their burst potential nerfed, even if their sustained damage would increase a bit.
I should add that I'm no authority on warlocks and may have made a few oversights. The essential point still stands though - that pets and metamorphosis are potent and unique warlock defenses, and that Blizzard should rather focus on where those fall short than add a generic defense buff to warlocks (and particularly not yet another bubble effect).
It's not just a warlock problem it's a melee vs caster debate. Out of all the casters(mage, moonkin, elemental shaman, shadowpriest and warlock), only mages are viable due to their instant casts and ability to control melee. The other 4 are all pretty rubbish, but 3 of them are hybrids with some half decent PvP trees(resto/disc/feral) to fall back on. This is why you see warlock with little to no players in the ranking tables.
So why are melee better than casters? Instants vs casting time. It's really that simple. A rogue kicking a school is like giving having disarm on a 10s cooldown, it's just bonkers- i am not going to even talk about gouge/stuns etc. Even affliction, which has a number of instant cast spells, needs to use 3-4 different spells with a casting time to get anywhere near maximum damage- melees do with with instant abilities and auto attack. DK's can chain death grip into a interrupt(mind freeze, 10s cd) into a 5s silience into another interrupt. The only caster that can do something similiar to a melee is a frost mage with the stupid amount of nova's that spec has. I assume the main roll of interrupts is to stop healers so the problem isn't easily solved.
On the warlocks potent defence....
+26% healing received is nice, but only if you play in a healer setup. It also doesn't help much if you are dead by the time your healer is out of CC. Soul link is a good spell but the last thing i want to see blizzard doing is buffing a dull passive defense. Meta is a 51 point talent and balancing a class around 1 spec is not the way forward. My preference is a new trainable ability that focuses on countering melee(e.g cripple on hit effect, double the cost-rage/energy/mana/runes of all abilities for a short duration) as well as a more realisic CD on deathcoil- with a possible reduction in range.
So far in 3.0.8, I am seeing a fairly healthy comp setup develop in 2s, except for Mage / Rogue. Due to the Mutilate MH poison bugs, the existing high burst on Mutilate Rogues, and the buffs that Arcane got, the setup now requires absolutely zero skill (not like much was necessary before), and minimal pvp gear. My partner, a holy Paladin, has to routinely bubble at 80% or higher in order to survive. Every Mage Rogue arena team that I armory is wearing basically zero PvP gear, and they simply focus on abusing high damage cooldowns and then resetting the fight as necessary.
Teams like Shaman Rogue, or Priest Rogue, are challenging, but at the very least doable. Other common setups seem to be Paladin based: like Paladin Warrior, Paladin Warlock, and obviously DK Paladin.
The problem is chiefly becoming evident in the representation of certain classes in 2s and 3s. Mage and Rogue absolutely dominate in the DPS slots that I've seen. RMP is having a field day in 3s, and I am pretty sure that no counter-comp exists or can exist until burst is toned down. Shaman, Mage, Rogue is basically as good, or better, due to Bloodlust and Hex.
The system is sick and failing. Most people appear to be either milking their classes advantages while they can, or simply doing arenas to build up points. Titles, items, and actual ratings are losing their value.
The system is sick and failing. Most people appear to be either milking their classes advantages while they can, or simply doing arenas to build up points. Titles, items, and actual ratings are losing their value.
This is pretty much how its looking from my perspective also.
As an anecdote, there are 84 paladins in the top 100 3v3 teams.....second up are DK's with 62. There are 28 paladins in the SK100 followed by DK at 17 (and hunter at 13). After a couple weeks I suspect the DK nerfs will lower the DK representation a bit and the difference between paladins and second best will be even more apparent.
Lanky you are just whining now, how is rogue/ret pally, dk/ret moonkin/mage burst etc anything different then rogue/mage. Yes damage is high but it't not like the ranking are filled with rogue/mage teams. Whatever your think is skill-les does not mean its a complicated combo. I think a combo that: loses if they don't get opener, is always low health after killing 1 target, loses 2v1 against multiple players, pretty much impossible to win against team with pala healer qualifies as a certain skillfull team. And seriously, a DK complaining?
Medu is right, there are just way to many interrupt, casting was already hard, with another melee class it just got harder.
Lanky you are just whining now, how is rogue/ret pally, dk/ret moonkin/mage burst etc anything different then rogue/mage. Yes damage is high but it't not like the ranking are filled with rogue/mage teams. Whatever your think is skill-les does not mean its a complicated combo. I think a combo that: loses if they don't get opener, is always low health after killing 1 target, loses 2v1 against multiple players, pretty much impossible to win against team with pala healer qualifies as a certain skillfull team. And seriously, a DK complaining?
Medu is right, there are just way to many interrupt, casting was already hard, with another melee class it just got harder.
I actually remained really silent through the intial wave of complaining about damage. Mearis made many points, many people said wait until more resilience gets into the system. I waited. More resilience is in the system. People still die in less than 2 seconds, from setups that are far too easy to create. If you think this is just whine, that's your prerogative. I consider it exposure.
I'm going to list off a set of givens, you can tell me if it is complaining or stating facts.
1. "loses if they don't get the opener." This is currently untrue. I've lost my paladin, 100% to 0% in a single gcd, regardless of whether or not I am sapped. Fact.
I am sure you have killed a Paladin 100% to 0% in a GCD. If he hits any skill other than bubble, the gcd lock window kills him stone dead. To keep the paladin alive afterwards for longer than 4 seconds, I must instantly strangulate the mage, and grip the rogue. The following can be chained on me at any time to remove me from the fight, thus forcing valuable cleanse GCDs in the best case: Blind --> polymorph chain. Frost nova ---> crippling. The problem is that too much instant damage combines with too many instant CCs to create a scenario where every move the paladin makes must be perfect, and the mage need only stand and spam barrage, use slow, and generally just faceroll.
He would have to instantly trinket and bubble to survive. Mage / Rogue players who are not horrendously bad can then reset and bandage or evocate as necessary to regain any lost health.
2. Arcane is broken, and does more damage now than it did previously. Fact. Please, try to argue this one. I am seeing mages totally forgo pyroblast in favor of instant / Icy Veins Arcane blasts and barrage chains. That's not right.
3. Mutilate procs 1.5 more poisons than it should.
So, can we at least agree that the two highest burst damage classes in the arena metagame at the moment are: Mage rogue?
holy paladin/dk/hunter is pretty much a hard counter to rmp, amz is horrendous against pmr burst.
Could you explain how to do this? I run this comp in 3s and we are reasonably successful against RMP but I do not believe that at this point that I would consider us a "hard counter". I've seen that you're a good PvPer so if you are able to lay out what needs to be done I would appreciate it.
01/09/09, 10:32 PM
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