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Old 10/13/08, 4:33 AM   #61
Shatter Combo w/ Fries
Von Kaiser
 
Human Priest
 
Lothar
The reason priests and paladins "work well together" in 5s is less about any sort of synergy and more about double defensive dispels. Hell, it's the only big reason. If you want to play with a priest/paladin on your 5v5 team, you need to bring another priest/palain or a warlock. Period. The only exception to this is pretty much that druid paladin shaman hunter warrior comp, which still baffles me when it hits #1 spots ever (honestly, how does the paladin do anything ever on that team?). Sitting in fear or poly until DR is... a disadvantage.

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Old 10/13/08, 5:29 AM   #62
Mearis
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Originally Posted by Amera View Post
I don't disagree with any particular point about priests having slowly weakened due to a variety of factors, but PMR is alive and well at the top of the food chain, at least in Stormstrike.
It varies by BG, but if you look at lan performance, WLD dominates. On live, with PvE gear on melees, the situation is a fair bit different, but if you look at numbers, PMR still doesn't compare to the druid based teams.

Keep in mind that PMR also has a few combinations that it just cannot beat ever - double healer warrior/hunter are incredibly rough. WLD is a horrible match up with undispellable fel armor.

I'm assuming in the 3.0 patch that all healers are going to take a hit due to the new DPS talents and abilities that seem to dramatically increase both sustained and burst damage for a lot of classes. With season 4 gear it is already perfectly possible to drop anyone in a kidney shot or other very small window of time with solid coordination; I don't see this changing. Also with Ret the way it currently is, I don't see how anyone could survive a cleave team with a Ret paladin + other melee on it.
Yeah, 3.0 is going to be the day of double DPS. I don't really think any team without a ret paladin can have serious success, but 3.0 is not really meant to be balanced, and Blizzard knows as much.

I am more concerned with balance at level 80, but trying to guess that based on short snapshots of people with vastly varying gear is kinda hard. Tipically though damage outpaces healing very quickly.

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Old 10/13/08, 10:42 AM   #63
tehscepter3
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Tauren Druid
 
Ysera
The thing I am concerned about regarding WotLK Pvp is what spec to use and what will be the most efficient.
I've been looking at druid specs for arena and I really don't think Feral Charge would be worth going for anymore, considering there is so many melee talents you must go through first.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft is a spec I think might be viable for arena although there are a few things that could be changed around.

I'm not sure if Living seed + Improve Regrowth is worth it. I'm pretty sure "tree" would still not be viable at it's large mana cost.

Wild growth could be good for 3v3-5v5 but this spec is more rounded around 2v2.

I was thinking that living seed and Imp regrowth could be dropped and then go down to Lunar guidance in balance.
What are you thoughts regarding which spec to use?

Last edited by tehscepter3 : 10/13/08 at 11:13 AM. Reason: Error in grammar

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Old 10/13/08, 12:58 PM   #64
gia
 
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Genjuros (EU)
What are you thoughts regarding which spec to use?
This is probably a question for the druid thread, but I see restokins being very popular with the addition of spellpower gear and swiftmend.

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Old 10/13/08, 4:27 PM   #65
tehscepter3
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Yes, I've been getting more response from "http://elitistjerks.com/f38/t14753-druid_resto_pvp_thread/p56/#post934150" the Druid thread,
Just thought I'd ask around. Also, a lot of people are saying Restokin/Swiftmend is looking like the new resto druid arena build.

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Old 10/13/08, 6:34 PM   #66
Gourd
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Originally Posted by Nethris View Post
Would making PW:S and ice barrier absorb mana damage as well help balance this at all? The coefficient for how much normal damage a point of mana damage counts as might have to be experimented with, but this would seem one possible direction to take this, and make viper sting additionally require some actual damage to be done to the mage or priest to ensure it does anything.
I actually suggested something similar in the beta forums a few days ago - I think that this would be a good way to partially protect mages/priests without having to give priests the ability to remove poison if they feel strongly about not wanting them to be able to. The issue with this, as you obviously recognized as well, is that pw:s/barrier would get eaten through so quickly if they were being eaten up from both mana drains and damage - so they wouldn't end up feeling like they are absorbing much of either unless you are not being attacked.

Of course your suggestion to adjust the coefficient for damage->drain conversion would definitely be an applicable solution for this. Another similar solution would be to make all mana drains deal some amount of damage, and require them to deal damage in order for mana to be drained. This would end up affecting priests/mages similarly, as you would obviously still use barrier/pw:s to prevent yourself from taking the spells damage (thus preventing the drain as well).

Elendril - This is not a problem that only mage/priest deals with, it is just as gamebreaking for other priest/x (and to a lesser extent mage/x) teams as well. If you cannot achieve a kill very quickly, which is difficult even if the priest is shadow against experienced opponents, you cannot win.

Amera - Priest representation is really not overwhelmingly high - for instance they are tied with shaman as the 6/7th most represented class in 2v2 above 2200 on US-Bloodlust. The reason priests have as much representation as they do is, as you said, obviously the result of their strong offense, which has been all but killed in wotlk with the poor scaling of mana burn and the extremely high mana cost of dispel. As it is on live, priests lack of sustainability is compensated for by their offensive power; in beta, this compensation is very weak by comparison. Also, while you have a point that hunters are less represented than priests, it seems very silly to me that hunters can have so many of their issues ignored based presumably on the sole fact that they can farm priests teams via viper sting. I imagine hunters would support a nerf to viper sting as well if it meant that their other problems were properly addressed :p

Last edited by Gourd : 10/13/08 at 6:44 PM.

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Old 10/13/08, 10:59 PM   #67
Rockstar
Von Kaiser
 
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Originally Posted by Mearis View Post
Another reason why priests have hugely fallen in popularity is that priests are completely vulnerable to melee rape trains. We have zero ability to shake off melees, and if you play a priest you almost require someone to peel the melees from you - tipically either a mage or a druid.
Interesting that you post this yesterday, the very same day I was going to post a similar comment to focus attention on the absolute requirement for your teammates being able to peel from you, in fact pretty much your entire team being able to do so helps immeasurably (one of the reasons WMP worked for a while). I havn't admittedly played much for an entire season season when dual melee gained its dominance, however I played quite a few matches to a high of 2100 and believe it to be much the same these days - albeit worse against teams with a warlock.

It seems a little difficult to swallow that due to disc's horrible healing ability you need the entire team set up to peel/cc for you, and your 'role' is essentially to spam dispel for half the match and mana burn to actually contribute to the match yourself - two abilities nerfed in LK. Also, the vulnerability when under pressure coupled with an opponent's offensive dispel is ridiculous - shield, prom, renew, inner fire, fort & shadow prot all offer mitigation just fall off and at that point you're the worst AC class in the game with the worst healing with some severe vulnerabilities to Hunters, Melee & Shaman (I'm a little unsure about DKs right now but I assume their anti-caster capabilities don't make things much fun either!).

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Old 10/14/08, 4:03 AM   #68
Mearis
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I am quite sure for at least season 1 paladins will be the dominant healer. Plate armor is huge given the melee scaling, and they are now very very hard to lockdown.

The ability to assist and throw utility out when not under pressure to heal is extremly useful and important in a metagame where the damage doesn't massively overscale healing, but when all healers are going to have to spam heal like crazy just to keep people alive, the ability to contribute to the offensive play doesn't mean nearly as much.

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Old 10/14/08, 5:01 AM   #69
Nethris
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Scilla
Originally Posted by Rockstar View Post
Interesting that you post this yesterday, the very same day I was going to post a similar comment to focus attention on the absolute requirement for your teammates being able to peel from you, in fact pretty much your entire team being able to do so helps immeasurably (one of the reasons WMP worked for a while). I havn't admittedly played much for an entire season season when dual melee gained its dominance, however I played quite a few matches to a high of 2100 and believe it to be much the same these days - albeit worse against teams with a warlock.

It seems a little difficult to swallow that due to disc's horrible healing ability you need the entire team set up to peel/cc for you, and your 'role' is essentially to spam dispel for half the match and mana burn to actually contribute to the match yourself - two abilities nerfed in LK. Also, the vulnerability when under pressure coupled with an opponent's offensive dispel is ridiculous - shield, prom, renew, inner fire, fort & shadow prot all offer mitigation just fall off and at that point you're the worst AC class in the game with the worst healing with some severe vulnerabilities to Hunters, Melee & Shaman (I'm a little unsure about DKs right now but I assume their anti-caster capabilities don't make things much fun either!).
DKs are going to play utter havoc on just about everything with their ability to pull opponents to them I think - very effective for breaking a focus attempt on a team-mate, pulling an enemy out of their healer's LoS, or interrupting a healer's cast while dragging them behind a pillar. Personally I'm hoping that all the minute+ duration self only cast spells get added to the list of things that can't be dispelled, which would at least keep inner fire from being dispelled. The major changes like knockbacks in PvP, new mana regen mechanics, etc, are certainly going to need a balancing pass or 3 to level out. Anyone else think that trying to maximize the number of knockback effects on your arena team could get a bit ridiculous, especially in 5s? If anything, that may be a reason that pallies don't end up being dominant PvP healers, less of a need to lock out their spells if you can just punt them around a bit :P

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Old 10/15/08, 9:02 AM   #70
Whatev
Von Kaiser
 
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Stormreaver
Originally Posted by Amera View Post
This is silly. Priests remain one of the dominant classes in all brackets because they have an offensive threat (dispel, burn) and can heal while doing both of those things (renew, POM, Shield). You make it sound like mana burn is this terrible ability, when instead it is one of the defining features of a class that has seen immense success at all levels of arena play. Yes, if you get behind on healing as a priest, it is difficult to catch up - this isn't any different than other healers, since everyone is vulnerable to a lockout during these times (even druids in some circumstances). You will obviously never have the lasting output of a paladin or druid, but that is one of the biggest reasons priests play on teams that enable them to catch up easily and gain free time to burn during CC and such. Having an offensive ability that players fear so much they have to be ready to pillar hump at a moment's notice is extremely powerful even if you don't land it.

If I implied that mana burn was a terrible ability, that wasn't my intention. What I meant was that mana burn was an ability that required setup, and particularly, the cooperation of your teammates. If you end up fighting a 1v1 in an arena, mana burn will be of no use to you because you have virtually no ability to get someone to eat one. In other words, it's a powerful ability that requires a lot of effort to use successfully. The fact that eating mana burns was (as of 2.4; I haven't tried in 3.0) really, really bad contributed a great deal to its deterrent effect. Priests ARE a terrible class if you can't seize and maintain initiative, and mana burn was one of our main tools for accomplishing this effect. If you reduce the effectiveness of mana burn, aggressive strategies will become less risky against priests.

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Old 11/01/08, 1:21 AM   #71
Redux
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Priest
 
Korgath
A simple way they could fix the issues with dispels, is by making the randomness much less random.


Current: You go to dispel something with 30% resist, you can fail 5 times. It's random chance.

Possible change: Instead of it being a random check, they could simply alter it so that it's a talent that is 30% on first cast, and then the protection "loses a charge" and it's then 15%, and finally on the third time it's got 0% resist chance. This would remove a lot of the frustration I had as a priest spamming dispels on someone and not catching ANYTHING.

I really think this is the kind of system they're going to have to develop if they want to "fix it".

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Old 11/01/08, 1:40 AM   #72
Amera
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Amera
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An easier solution would be to just decide if they want stuff to be dispelable or not. If so, then there doesn't need to be an RNG check. If they want to compromise, they could make certain abilities last for a smaller duration but immune to dispels.

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Old 11/01/08, 2:25 AM   #73
Redux
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Priest
 
Korgath
Originally Posted by Amera View Post
An easier solution would be to just decide if they want stuff to be dispelable or not. If so, then there doesn't need to be an RNG check. If they want to compromise, they could make certain abilities last for a smaller duration but immune to dispels.
Having it be completely black and white leads to massive problems and imbalances with having a particular class/spec in an arena. For example, a mutilate rogue against a druid. There are several others where they need "some" sort of dispel protection. I just don't think black and white solves it, they need a level of grey in there to have the class keep it's identity even against teams that are straight counters.

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Old 11/01/08, 2:49 AM   #74
Amera
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Amera
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Well, another alternative would be "lengthens duration after dispelled" as part of the talent. For example: you dispel freedom, and it lasts 3 seconds after that or until it's duration expires, whichever is shorter. It would eliminate the RNG resists and give a predictable buffer to certain things. They would need to flag a spell as "dispelled" so you wouldn't waste mana trying to dispel something that was going away in another second or two, which might be a big coding project.

I think realistically you are much more likely for them to go black-and-white, a la fel armor/frost armor because it is probably the easiest thing to do at the coding level. But without a lot of thought put into that, yeah, you could end up with some really imbalanced situations. Ideally I think dispels are supposed to be another nice bonus of bringing someone along, not a requirement. But obviously in TBC arena that wasn't the case at all.

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Old 11/01/08, 8:45 PM   #75
Whatev
Von Kaiser
 
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Stormreaver
Originally Posted by Amera View Post
Well, another alternative would be "lengthens duration after dispelled" as part of the talent. For example: you dispel freedom, and it lasts 3 seconds after that or until it's duration expires, whichever is shorter. It would eliminate the RNG resists and give a predictable buffer to certain things. They would need to flag a spell as "dispelled" so you wouldn't waste mana trying to dispel something that was going away in another second or two, which might be a big coding project.

I think realistically you are much more likely for them to go black-and-white, a la fel armor/frost armor because it is probably the easiest thing to do at the coding level. But without a lot of thought put into that, yeah, you could end up with some really imbalanced situations. Ideally I think dispels are supposed to be another nice bonus of bringing someone along, not a requirement. But obviously in TBC arena that wasn't the case at all.
Well, the trouble with that is that certain abilities--especially DS/block, if they last even 3 seconds after you dispel it, you are already hosed. I had an idea regarding some kind of "dispel value" system where a buff or debuff would be assigned a value based on its dispel resistance and the dispel roll would with a high enough roll remove the effect, or with a lower roll reduce the dispel value remaining on the buff, making it more vulnerable to a followup dispel. But the numbers would require a lot of adjusting to get them to work reasonably, so I'm not sure it's not more convenient to just add a cutoff.

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