[Deathknight] PvP Thread - Page 4

Koettaren · 12/02/08, 9:48 PM

I'll be starting my arena career playing with a retribution paladin in 2v2. Since it's been pretty much impossible to do any testing in skirmish arenas and BGs, all I can do until the 17th is to theorycraft. Hence, I'm paying the EJ forum a visit.

As most of the discussion has been circling the unholy tree, I thought I'd pop in to ask you for advice on this Deep Frost build.

I am having some trouble placing the last 2 talent points.
I can choose to place them in:

Subversion for an extra 6% crit on Obliterate. The problem with this as I see it is that there is a lot I don't have any use for in this talent. Blood Strike and Heart Strike crit chance+less threat is not something I'm interested in as Frost in PvP.
Two points in Chillblains. This will leave me with a pretty permanent slow on at least one of my targets in the arena. Can be useful when you don't want to waste a FR on CoI to catch up to your target. I'd see this talent having more use for setups using a healer though, as it really shines when your target is chasing someone, not trying to escape (read pillar kiting, for example).
Another two points in Killing Machine. I don't see this talent being very useful in 2s for the same reason as Icy Talons. You simply won't be glued to a target. I cannot comment on how this will work with resilience though (aren't there some talents that can proc off crits even if you didn't crit? The game calculates the crit before the resilence is applied, if you understand what I'm getting at).

Koettaren · 12/02/08, 9:58 PM

Originally Posted by Nerosis

Unholy/Blood (18/0/53) = Spec
Unholy/Frost/Blood (7/11/53) = Spec

Any thoughts, suggestions, or even questions as to why I chose what I chose?

I would absolutely favor your second spec. I would choose the 11p in frost over improved rune tap any day of the week.

I think that Lichborne is close to a must for any PvP DK. The only exception I could think of here is if you're undead, but even that would probably make up for the fact that you get a 15 second fear, charm and sleep immunity AND the possibility to heal yourself with DC for eleven points, where the pre req. talents for it are really good aswell.

Valerys · 12/03/08, 3:56 AM

After some tinkering I came up with this spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Possible alternatives include taking points out of Impurity and into Annihilation (crit is crit). Is Corpse Explosion any good in BGs (I'm not thinking only arena here)?

kamiu · 12/03/08, 5:46 AM

Originally Posted by Valerys

As Unholy you will never use Obliterate (you get Scourge Strike to replace it) so Annihilation is only half-useful. Personally I'd put 2 points into Unholy Aura, possibly get rid of Impurity and take 5/5 Rage of Rivendare. The remaining 3 points are up in the air.

Isn't the use of Scourge Strike (SS) vs Obliterate (OB) situational?
I would imagine that using shadow damage (SS) versus teams and classes with shadow resistance isn't as effective as pumping physical damage (OB). Especially if you are fighting (SR) cloth due to lack of armor mitigation.

Targrend · 12/03/08, 8:32 AM

Originally Posted by Koettaren

(aren't there some talents that can proc off crits even if you didn't crit? The game calculates the crit before the resilence is applied, if you understand what I'm getting at).

No, chance-on-crit stuff just gets owned by your opponent's resilience. You're probably thinking of the fact that defensive stuff - that is, chance-on-being-crit abilities - get benefits from your resilience to make up for the fact that you don't get critted as often.

halcor · 12/03/08, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by kamiu

Isn't the use of Scourge Strike (SS) vs Obliterate (OB) situational?
I would imagine that using shadow damage (SS) versus teams and classes with shadow resistance isn't as effective as pumping physical damage (OB). Especially if you are fighting (SR) cloth due to lack of armor mitigation.

Hm, we'd need more numbers to figure this out, but the best case scenario for Obliterate beating SS would be a 2k armor priest (about 10% physical mitigation) with 80 SR (15% mitigation on average). Anyone have the numbers to calculate the OB and SS for an Unholy DK in this case?

Edit:
I did a little math on this, and it seems even in the scenario that favors OB the most (clothie with SR), it would only do .5% more damage. If anyone is interested in the math, post here and I'll write it out when I get time...

Heartwerx · 12/03/08, 12:23 PM

I seem to enjoy unholy the best so far.

Currently i'm torn between 2 specs for Unholy and 1 for frost.

- [21/0/50]
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Pros: MoB, boneshield, perma pet, imp runetap, NotD- incase pet gets focused,
AMZ, Magic Suppression, all in all amazing mitigation and plenty of tools at your disposal + dispell resistence
Cons: No unholy aura (but do i need it since ret has own movement buffs), no toughness, no lichbourne, no RoR

- [10/11/50]
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Pros: same as above, + Lichbourne and Toughness+PaleHorse=sexy against CC's
Cons: same as above, No MoB, no RoR, no runetap -lose self healing utility and some %crit

- [20/51/0]
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Pros: Lichbourne, hungering cold, toughness, freezes/snares from chillbains etc. imp runetap
Cons: Loss of unholy perks... namely: no dispell reistence for diseases, shorter DG cooldown, less mitigation vs. casters, no ghoul etc, etc.

thoughts?

Iodous · 12/03/08, 12:31 PM

I'd be interested on seeing with math for OB and SS. Looks like I'll be making yet another spec change.

Jiggs · 12/03/08, 3:36 PM

Originally Posted by Heartwerx

I seem to enjoy unholy the best so far.

Currently i'm torn between 2 specs for Unholy and 1 for frost.

- [21/0/50]
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Pros: MoB, boneshield, perma pet, imp runetap, NotD- incase pet gets focused,
AMZ, Magic Suppression, all in all amazing mitigation and plenty of tools at your disposal + dispell resistence
Cons: No unholy aura (but do i need it since ret has own movement buffs), no toughness, no lichbourne, no RoR

- [10/11/50]
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Pros: same as above, + Lichbourne and Toughness+PaleHorse=sexy against CC's
Cons: same as above, No MoB, no RoR, no runetap -lose self healing utility and some %crit

- [20/51/0]
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Pros: Lichbourne, hungering cold, toughness, freezes/snares from chillbains etc. imp runetap
Cons:[/b] Loss of unholy perks... namely: no dispell reistence for diseases, shorter DG cooldown, less mitigation vs. casters, no ghoul etc, etc.

thoughts?

First spec - i also thought of that spec as a good one for a 2 dps 2s team, but I don't really like all the self healing stuff in comps with healers. I dunno why and maybe I will be wrong to go more utility/offensive.

Second spec - Does 2h weapon spec only affect physical attacks? Unholy spec doesn't use a lot of physical attacks. If so those points may be better spent in unholy could go with RoR. I don't really like anything past 2 points in blood for an unholy build either. With our survivability DKS are not a great target so the parry points are pretty wasted and I don't think bladed armor alone is worth spending the extra points in blood.

jooce · 12/04/08, 1:26 AM

Originally Posted by Jiggs

Second spec - Does 2h weapon spec only affect physical attacks? Unholy spec doesn't use a lot of physical attacks. If so those points may be better spent in unholy could go with RoR. I don't really like anything past 2 points in blood for an unholy build either. With our survivability DKS are not a great target so the parry points are pretty wasted and I don't think bladed armor alone is worth spending the extra points in blood.

To my understanding any skill that has the "% of weapon damage" modifier would be modified by 2handed weapon spec.

Kaeion · 12/05/08, 4:18 AM

I've come up with this spec for PvP as a Frosty and I'd like you guys to look it over and tell me what you think about it and what, if anything, I should change.

Here it is: Frost PvP

Mystryl · 12/05/08, 9:33 AM

Would one not lack disease defense if one goes for a Frost/Blood build? Granted your getting a decent selfheal, some extra crit chance and some AP that scales with better gear. Does that, though, really make up for 30% dispel resistance to your diseases from going Frost/Unholy?

Faerlun · 12/05/08, 2:29 PM

Originally Posted by Mystryl

Would one not lack disease defense if one goes for a Frost/Blood build? Granted your getting a decent selfheal, some extra crit chance and some AP that scales with better gear. Does that, though, really make up for 30% dispel resistance to your diseases from going Frost/Unholy?

That is one of my concerns. Right now I am leaning towards a Frost/Unholy build that is heavily focused on defensive abilities. I'll be picking up acclimation for one, which is something I haven't seen in specs so far; correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it stacks with frost aura? I also plan to use glyph of death grip, so having the unholy reduced cooldown on it will help immensely. Longer disease durations is something I am still not 100% sure about, but if I am going unholy as my secondary I don't see much else place to put the points which could be anywhere near as useful. I don't have my exact spec worked out yet, but I'll be picking up virtually every defensive ability I can in the frost tree and the T1 dodge talent in unholy (since the other two don't do much for a frost spec). I'm planning to do 2's with a rogue as this spec, which is one reason I'm not 100% sold, and still thinking about possibly going blood instead of unholy to get rune tap. It's a tough decision!

Kaeion · 12/05/08, 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by Mystryl

Would one not lack disease defense if one goes for a Frost/Blood build? Granted your getting a decent selfheal, some extra crit chance and some AP that scales with better gear. Does that, though, really make up for 30% dispel resistance to your diseases from going Frost/Unholy?

I thought about the issue of diseases being dispelled without the resistance, but you have to think about it in terms of dealing with people who may be geared equally or better than yourself and who also have well made specs. Always prepare for those who might outgear you. In that situation, a 30% resistance to your diseases being dispelled isn't going to have a major effect. If they're geared well enough with the right attributes capped, such as Hit rating, they're going to blast straight through that resistance. Would it not be better to prepare yourself more defensively with a decent self heal every 30 seconds as well as pumping up your own white Dmg output for when your diseases ARE dispelled? If it were a higher %tage like 60-75, I'd say it'd be the better choice, but I don't see 30% helping enough to be worth passing up being able to heal yourself with what is somewhat equal to a pot every 30 seconds. Especially now that Blizz only lets us use 1 pot per battle. The self heal gives you a kind of loophole to that restriction. An advantage against those who are bound to it.

Severity · 12/06/08, 6:32 PM

How about a hybrid PvP spec? I was messing around with some talent calcs and came up with: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

It combines Mark of Blood, Imp Rune Tap, Lichborne, Master of Ghouls, Consecration, and Bone Shield; all of which are fairly necessary I'd think. Good and defensive, designed to outlast while offering added snares and stuns. Comments/Feedback?