[Warrior] PvP & Arena

Gink · 12/13/08, 6:18 AM

With the new season coming up, I thought it might be time to get a discussion going on the topic of Warriors PvP, and on arenas in particular.

Right now I'm torn between some kind of 41/30 variation spec, or a spec including 23 in Protection. I'm also considering a 36/35 spec, which looks like a lot of fun.

I'll probably do 2s with a Elemental/Restoration-shaman, and I'm thinking that the high DPS of the two non-prot specs might compliment a shaman of that spec nicely. Basically charge in and try to burst one down while cc'ing the other with hex/fear, and a interrupt rotation coordinated on Vent. I have no idea how this would work out, but we thought it might be fun to try.
I've always liked slow, long matches though, so a utility-spec with 23 in prot, up to Gag Order and Concussion Blow, combined with a full restoration shaman might be more fun for me.

What are your thoughts on spec and arena combos now that the first season is drawing near?

Emeraude · 12/13/08, 8:51 AM

I think dipping into Prot might become a necessity for serious arena play for the added survivability/utility the spec offers.

1) We lost mace stun, which was huge for pealing, and control of our opponents.
2) Enrage was reduced, it was a deterrent that sometimes made people hesitate from attacking us before, that's no longer the case.
3) You still have to deal with being blown up to little pieces in Berserker Stance.

PvP damage in general is just ridiculously high at the moment, you're going to want those Prot points for whatever little survivability they offer starting off, as Warrior survivability has always been a bit of a joke if your healers end up CC'd for more then 2 seconds & #3 happens.

43/5/23, 37/11/23, 34/14/23 are all builds I've looked at that I think would be competitive using the Prot Hybrid.

gia · 12/13/08, 11:47 AM

I'm going to start out with a bladestorm build, either 57/14/0 or 60/11/0. I like everything in the arms tree so I'm still debating what to drop (imp. slam, trauma, 1/2 unrelenting assault, anger management, imp. hamstring, etc). Even at 70 where I played 53/8 I tried about half a dozen variations on the arms talents and I still haven't come to a final decision.

Main arguing points are the usefulness of bleed talents (imp. rend, trauma, taste for blood) and the amount of opportunities to use imp. slam considering the usual rage starvation and how much of our rage is dumped into hamstring already.

There are also a couple things worrying me if arenas end up being the same as level 70 after 3.0 patch: I think burst damage and crowd control are going to dominate and we are very vulnerable to both. I don't know if taking gag order/concussion/last stand will be a decent enough counter considering the dps loss (my wild guess is a 20% dps loss over a bladestorm build but feel free to debate that) means we won't be able to put enough pressure on the other team anyway.

Gink · 12/13/08, 12:10 PM

I only Imp Spell Reflect didn't have the limit range it currently has (Does anyone know exactly how many yards it is, seemed like 10, 15 at the most?), then there wouldn't be much doubt in my mind. I would start of with a build like this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
The prot talents looks really nice to me who likes matches that lasts a little while.
Coordinate Heroic Throw, Concussion Blow, Fear and Pummel with Shaman/Druid Hex/Interrupts/Cyclone and you have a player out of the game for some time, especially if their trinket is down.
I also agree with Emeraude on his points about survivability, Last Stand and Concussion Blow is very powerful.
On the other hand I'm very reluctant of giving up talents like Weapon Mastery, Death Wish, Intensify Rage in Fury, or talents like Endless Rage, Wrecking Crew and Bladestorm in Arms.

Nice buff to PvP with the change of Mortal Strike glyph by the way, +10% damage on Mortal Strike, but the debuff penalty is going away. 20% buff to Mortal Strike with Improved Mortal Strike, also something to consider I think.

Edit: @ Emeraude. Our builds are pretty similar, but don't you think 1 point in Improved hamstring is enough, considering the Hamstring Glyph, and that Improved Hamstring procs are on diminishing returns now? I'm also a bit curious as to why you skipped Anger Management.

Chirality · 12/13/08, 2:11 PM

Originally Posted by gia

I'm going to start out with a bladestorm build, either 57/14/0 or 60/11/0. I like everything in the arms tree so I'm still debating what to drop (imp. slam, trauma, 1/2 unrelenting assault, anger management, imp. hamstring, etc). Even at 70 where I played 53/8 I tried about half a dozen variations on the arms talents and I still haven't come to a final decision.

Main arguing points are the usefulness of bleed talents (imp. rend, trauma, taste for blood) and the amount of opportunities to use imp. slam considering the usual rage starvation and how much of our rage is dumped into hamstring already.

There are also a couple things worrying me if arenas end up being the same as level 70 after 3.0 patch: I think burst damage and crowd control are going to dominate and we are very vulnerable to both. I don't know if taking gag order/concussion/last stand will be a decent enough counter considering the dps loss (my wild guess is a 20% dps loss over a bladestorm build but feel free to debate that) means we won't be able to put enough pressure on the other team anyway.

At 70 I never thought the Rend/Overpower talents were too useful. Maybe one point in Improved Overpower, one in Unrelenting assault, and none in Taste for Blood.

Improved Hamstring and the Improved Hamstring Glyph are absolute musts, though.

A Bladestorm build with Improved Execute is probably going to be the best---no class can really survive a full Bladestorm followed by a 100-rage Sudden Death.

Mode · 12/13/08, 3:41 PM

Originally Posted by Chirality

A Bladestorm build with Improved Execute is probably going to be the best---no class can really survive a full Bladestorm followed by a 100-rage Sudden Death.

While that's true if they eat a full bladestorm and are still there for the execute, what exactly is your plan for when they do survive it? Hunters can disengage, mages can blink or iceblock, warlocks can portal, rogues can evasion or use their new feint glyph, etc. Chill out for 1.5 minutes while you wait for it to come off cooldown?

Lanky · 12/13/08, 5:26 PM

Hell, if the player can in any way move faster than you, you are screwed. You have to hamstring and then Bladestorm, and then you have to hope they can't get rid of your hamstring in time. I See bladestorm being something you pop late in the match when you can keep someone immobilized for 4+ seconds.

LodeRunner · 12/15/08, 2:44 AM

Bladestorm strikes me as a build that has higher damage, both spike and sustained, but lacks utility. I think most Warriors will flock to it and do fairly well for themselves, especially in 3v3 and 5v5. That is, of course, if anyone plays 5v5. If the last season was any indication there will be little interest in it. Deep Arms will also help a lot in the fight against rage starving classes, like being able to use Overpower on shielded Priests.

For 2v2 I am very keen on the 37/11/23 build Emeraude linked in the second post. There is a lot of sustained and burst damage you give up, but you gain incredible amounts of utility, and I've been eying it ever since they announced all the changes in the Protection tree. A skilled Warrior who is very situationally aware has such potential to just stay alive and piss people off, eventually wearing them down. A build like this will almost assuredly be paired with a Druid or Shaman healer. However, I feel the build will be too overwhelming for most people, and won't produce enough damage to satisfy them.

One thing I am really itching to try out, however is a 3v3 team with an Enhancement Shaman. I've been leveling mine and the spec is just beastly. The change to the talented Earthbind totem removes all party snares every time the thing pulses. There's your solution to the snare problem, people.

Dartok · 12/15/08, 5:21 AM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

I think dipping into Prot might become a necessity for serious arena play for the added survivability/utility the spec offers.

1) We lost mace stun, which was huge for pealing, and control of our opponents.
2) Enrage was reduced, it was a deterrent that sometimes made people hesitate from attacking us before, that's no longer the case.
3) You still have to deal with being blown up to little pieces in Berserker Stance.

PvP damage in general is just ridiculously high at the moment, you're going to want those Prot points for whatever little survivability they offer starting off, as Warrior survivability has always been a bit of a joke if your healers end up CC'd for more then 2 seconds & #3 happens.

43/5/23, 37/11/23, 34/14/23 are all builds I've looked at that I think would be competitive using the Prot Hybrid.

Here is where I am inclined to disagree with you. I think dipping into Prot will only be necessary for 5 v 5 for the survivability but not so much for 3v3 and 2v2.

1) I do not see how you can use a random proc as something for control and pealing. "Well timed mace stun" was a joke and not to be taken serious. Saying mace stuns were a vital part of your strategy is like saying you planned on winning the lottery with those numbers on that day.
2) Enrage never stopped people from targeting warriors and blowing them up. I played a hunter for season 1 to 3 and a rogue for season 4 and on both characters our plan was to draw the warrior out and force him to sword and board or be blown up because he followed us out of LOS. When you reach the high level arena brackets (2200+) your class/spec do not deter anyone from attacking you.
3)I think the macro still works, /cast [stance:1/3]Defensive Stance
/equip [YOUR1HNAME]
/equip [YOURSHIELDNAME]

Learn it, love it, use it.

I think at this time the best way to survive is being able to get out of the snares and stuns. That kind of control right now is what will get people killed and bladestorm is the answer to all of that stuff.

Emeraude · 12/15/08, 7:20 AM

Originally Posted by Dartok

Here is where I am inclined to disagree with you. I think dipping into Prot will only be necessary for 5 v 5 for the survivability but not so much for 3v3 and 2v2.

1) I do not see how you can use a random proc as something for control and pealing. "Well timed mace stun" was a joke and not to be taken serious. Saying mace stuns were a vital part of your strategy is like saying you planned on winning the lottery with those numbers on that day.
2) Enrage never stopped people from targeting warriors and blowing them up. I played a hunter for season 1 to 3 and a rogue for season 4 and on both characters our plan was to draw the warrior out and force him to sword and board or be blown up because he followed us out of LOS. When you reach the high level arena brackets (2200+) your class/spec do not deter anyone from attacking you.
3)I think the macro still works, /cast [stance:1/3]Defensive Stance
/equip [YOUR1HNAME]
/equip [YOURSHIELDNAME]

Learn it, love it, use it.

I think at this time the best way to survive is being able to get out of the snares and stuns. That kind of control right now is what will get people killed and bladestorm is the answer to all of that stuff.

1) Actually yes, I WOULD form a strategy around "Well timed mace stuns" Pealing off to a Rogue/Warrior sitting on your healer and spamming hamstring would allow imp hamstring and/or mace stun to proc repeatedly and give your teammate some air to breathe. Mace stun was an extremely huge part of Warrior success in PvP, some might not admit it, but over the past 4 seasons I'd repeatedly get opponents who would make alts and complain about my "random lol mace stun luck". Lots of Warriors abused it for success, and it will be missed.

2) Enrage was most certainly a deterrent in 2s/3s. You attack a Warrior half-heartedly and you fail to kill them, your healers would have to deal with 25% more damage from that Warrior, in 2s with DPS/Healer, attacking a Warrior was always risky, most DPS/Healer teams would attempt to kill a Warrior first, but if you're not bad about being kited around a pillar and your healer is good they'd have to switch over to the healer eventually as just feeding a Warrior rage/enrage was not smart.

3) It's funny you mention this, because this is further reason to spec into Prot for all brackets, Imp Spell Reflect in Prot is downright amazing for stopping CC on your healers/teammates and helping you recover. Reflecting Polymorph or Fear on your healer would save lives. Reflecting CC on yourself and damage on your teammates as well is large, there was a reason it was nerfed in beta. It's a very very powerful talent. It also has that delay between travel time so you can reflect multiple spells off of yourself and teammates if there are simultaneous casts.

I think you'll have fine success going Bladestorm and glass cannoning it up the first couple of weeks, everyone will be squishy and there will be no significant resilience out there to mitigate your damage. But Prot offers you many many tools as well.

TC for 20% speed reduction on your attackers(You'll have the global/rage if you're turtling up)
5% dodge
10% more armor
30% reduction on snares
20-30% instant health boast on a 2-3 minute timer in addition to the health boast trinket(Depends on Glyph)
Shorter CD on disarm, as well as additional damage on your disarmed target
On demand stun every 30 seconds
Ranged Silence/Melee Silence(You can use one after the other for 6 seconds of silence on somebody)
AE spell reflect for you and your teammates.
-4% chance to be hit by spells

Dartok · 12/15/08, 2:09 PM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

1) Actually yes, I WOULD form a strategy around "Well timed mace stuns" Pealing off to a Rogue/Warrior sitting on your healer and spamming hamstring would allow imp hamstring and/or mace stun to proc repeatedly and give your teammate some air to breathe. Mace stun was an extremely huge part of Warrior success in PvP, some might not admit it, but over the past 4 seasons I'd repeatedly get opponents who would make alts and complain about my "random lol mace stun luck". Lots of Warriors abused it for success, and it will be missed.

2) Enrage was most certainly a deterrent in 2s/3s. You attack a Warrior half-heartedly and you fail to kill them, your healers would have to deal with 25% more damage from that Warrior, in 2s with DPS/Healer, attacking a Warrior was always risky, most DPS/Healer teams would attempt to kill a Warrior first, but if you're not bad about being kited around a pillar and your healer is good they'd have to switch over to the healer eventually as just feeding a Warrior rage/enrage was not smart.

3) It's funny you mention this, because this is further reason to spec into Prot for all brackets, Imp Spell Reflect in Prot is downright amazing for stopping CC on your healers/teammates and helping you recover. Reflecting Polymorph or Fear on your healer would save lives. Reflecting CC on yourself and damage on your teammates as well is large, there was a reason it was nerfed in beta. It's a very very powerful talent. It also has that delay between travel time so you can reflect multiple spells off of yourself and teammates if there are simultaneous casts.

I think you'll have fine success going Bladestorm and glass cannoning it up the first couple of weeks, everyone will be squishy and there will be no significant resilience out there to mitigate your damage. But Prot offers you many many tools as well.

TC for 20% speed reduction on your attackers(You'll have the global/rage if you're turtling up)
5% dodge
10% more armor
30% reduction on snares
20-30% instant health boast on a 2-3 minute timer in addition to the health boast trinket(Depends on Glyph)
Shorter CD on disarm, as well as additional damage on your disarmed target
On demand stun every 30 seconds
Ranged Silence/Melee Silence(You can use one after the other for 6 seconds of silence on somebody)
AE spell reflect for you and your teammates.
-4% chance to be hit by spells

I do not care who you are or what you say about mace stuns being a strategy. You cannot rely on a proc to take care of something for you. The best warriors would rely on well timed intercepts and hamstring combos to peel dps off their healers. Yes mace stuns helped a ton but to say they were a vital part of your strategy is just wrong.

I played mutilate rogue and disc priest before 3.0 and our strategy vs warrior healer teams was to kill the warrior first. This was pre 3.0 as well which meant I had to have position on the warrior to do any damage. Enrage did not stop us from using this strat and using it very well. My point was just that, if destroying the warrior first is the only way for your team to win enrage is not going to stop people from doing it.

I mentioned that macro as it is something to use in any situation that the warrior is being focus fired. You do not have to be fighting casters for you to have a good reason to put on a shield. I have seen many times where a warrior is blown up melee style because he didn't switch out of bezerker stance and kept his 2 hander on. Going into defensive stance should be used for more than just spell reflection and is actually the only thing that will deter a melee class from attacking a warrior.

Warriors are far from a glass cannon no matter what spec they play, and I believe that going to deep into prot for 2s and 3s will hinder their damage output way too much to be of any real threat. At this point it is all theory craft and time will tell which spec will end up being best I just do not think giving up bladstorm in 2s and 3s is the way to go.

Lithose · 12/15/08, 3:04 PM

Enrage was a strong deterrent for most teams...You could either kill the healer, or force the warrior to turtle. The first option allowed the warrior to do damage to your healer, the second allowed the warrior to do damage mainly to your DPS. Which strategy you chose depended largely on how much control your DPS had and how much longevity your healer had vs the warriors. A one handed warrior enraged still dealt a lot of damage, turteling him up only displaced where that damage went, for some teams, like priest/rogue, where the rogue was far more adept at dealing with the damage, it was obvious, but that doesn't mean that is the case for everyone.

As far as mace stuns? I think a lot of warriors underestimate how big of an impact they had. I wouldn't go so far as to say they were a "strategy", but they put warriors on more equal footing with other classes in terms of CC.

People need to remember, a lot of what makes CC strong is how much of the game you can deprive your opponent, not necessarily the "clutch CC kill" factor..For example, we have all seen our healer or ourselves die because a rogue/mage or other heavy CC team pulled of a long CC combo at just the correct point where our team was disoriented (Positioned wrong, or used an item wrong, ect.)...However, most games against heavy CC are lost simply because my "active" time is lowered so much. My shaman was very good about avoiding the quick death of Rogue/Mage, but in the end, we often lost because between Sheep, Blind and Nova my "up time" was abysmal, even if I made no mistakes in countering them (Intervening to break sheep ect.). This wasn't the other team "chaining CC for a kill" it was simply lowering the overall effectiveness of my team, over a longer duration.

In terms of mace stuns, though, in a one minute period for me usually tended to proc 3-4 times, not all of those were full duration due to DR, but in general, I could count on my opponent being disabled about 10-15 seconds out of every minute. If we take both players into account (120 seconds of play time) that means they lost 12% or so of their effectiveness due to one ability. That is a massive amount and one people are overlooking.

Warriors haven't progressed very far in terms of CC..While most other classes have. I like blade storm, but with the loss of mace stun (And there by an average increase in our opponents non-cc time), I don't see arms as being very competitive in *small scale* arena, at least not past 41 points. Regardless of whether you could form a strategy around it, it was "our CC", and protection offers the only viable replacement for that.

However, a lot is up in the air, I'm trying to discern this from skirmish, obviously a lot of this is going to change with Resiliance coming back and more streamlined/practiced teams.

Alaron · 12/15/08, 11:00 PM

Most likely I'll start out with a bladestorm build like 60/11 to feel the waters and see if my team needs more burst or survivability, but I've also been considering some build options with 23 into prot for the utility that it offers.

One thing that I've been thinking of trying something along the lines of a Fury/Prot hybrid. In addition to the prot utility, you also get a second intercept/immobilize break on demand, 5% crit to other melee in your group (I'm looking at teaming up with a Blood DK and a shaman for 3v3), death wish, and a main attack that doesn't get a lot weaker if you need to put on a shield. The big question about the build to my mind is how reliable furious attacks is for keeping up the MS debuff. A secondary question is what the damage output will be like. I'd obviously have to switch some gear around from what I'd be running as arms, but I don't think that would be too bad, and my 1H weapons are decent (Broken Promise and Maexxna's Femur).

I'll probally try it out later this week, but does anyone have experience with Furious Attacks? Is it a viable source for the MS debuff? Are there any other glaring problems with fury for PvP (I've always PvPed as arms in the past) that I'm overlooking (mabye less flurry uptime with resil could cause rage gen problems, overly predictable damage, etc...)?

mdokane · 12/16/08, 10:45 AM

These are very uncertain times for a warrior indeed. What we think we know is that double dps 2v2 and triple dps 3v3 are going to dominate initially while people acquire adequate resilience gear. As we all know, those teams are the least conducive to traditional warrior play due to our various mechanics including limited CC and a "takes damage to make damage" philosophy. The obvious difference between season 1-4 and the oncoming season is the protection tree changes as many have noted.

I am not going to say outright that the people advocating the gag order 23 prot build or the 51+ arms build are correct or incorrect, but I would draw the parallel between season 1 frost mages and arcane/fire mages. Initially you saw some high numbers out of the "glass cannon" style of mage, but the control and quick burst of frost won the day in the end. I don't think that is a completely accurate allegory to the current incarnation of warriors, but it merits a note. From my limited pvp in wintergrasp/SotA and the old battlegrounds, I have noticed when I am protection specced (and I mean deep, not the hybrid spec people are talking about) I am nearly unkillable, and most people get frustrated and switch targets. Now I know not to take that observation any further than I could throw it, but warriors adequately specced/geared could play the "control and annoy" role that mages found a niche with in some double or triple dps comps. Now that doesn't fit some warriors' play style and that's ok; we saw a massive change in our talent trees and not even the best players have an idea of how it will shake out.

If the protection build could be fit into a lineup, there could be fascinating strategies unlocked for a new kind of "graduated cleave team" ie. prot war/death knight/(pick one from ret pal/enh sham/rogue/hunter). The general purpose of the warrior would be to increase the uptime of his team mates while providing spot burst damage and simultaneously being pointless to attempt to kill. The degree to which you would want to provide utility or do damage would dictate your spec between arms/prot hybrid and perhaps deep prot. Mortal strike is important, yes, but if the speculation is at all correct we may not see much healing in arena at all. It can also be replicated by other classes. Adding the mobility of warbringer, the aoe stun of shockwave and the added survivability of the deep prot talents merits a look if you happen to be running with a rogue or hunter.

Again, I don't think the camp advocating bladestorm is incorrect. In all likelihood if I find a healer masochistic enough to try running a 2s team with me in season 5, I will be twirling right along side you. I personally love playing a warrior with reckless abandon. However, I just keep thinking that the possibilities with prot and well coordinated play are something to seriously consider.

Tengarez · 12/18/08, 4:52 AM

I have tried battlegrounds and arenas lately with a few different specs, but so far I have found fury to have the most burst right now because the lack of resilience on all players. The thing that makes this so good from what I have noticed is the ability to go defensive and still put out a good amount of damage because of the lack of resilience I currently have as well. I have tried arms, but weapon damage seems to make whirlwind hit very low with only one weapon, meanwhile the health on players has increased fairly significantly.

The weapon chain talent and future removal of titans grip hit penalty makes me lean more towards the fury tree at the moment which leads me to a few questions...

What is the hit cap for PVP now? (As arms, or as fury with or without precision)
Would the enrage talents in arms and fury stack or do they overlap each other?

Thanks.