How do you gear as a prot war for arena? What I'm thinking is just your PvE build and stack SBV to slam anyone and anything into nothingness. Also has the advantage of a good 10k more HP.
I ask mostlly to try something different with my handicapped war friend who cant pvp to save himself.
I haven't touched arena previously because I've always played squishy classes/specs that dies too fast in pvp up until now, but the survivability I'm seeing just with my level 78 gear is amazing. I can't imagine what a tough nut a prot warrior with high resilience will be. I'm curious about arena now though, mostly interested in a 3v3 or 5v5 setup.
There are only two issues I've found with pvp as prot, judging from fooling around in Wintergrasp and battlegrounds. The most glaring one is the lack of Hamstring in defensive stance. Shield Bash works as a substitute, but only lasts 6 seconds.
The other is that the 1 second stun on Charge isn't enough to catch someone running away from you because of how buggy Charge/Intercept is and you often stop outside of melee range, and if you've recenty been in the fray with your target chances are they're immune to your stun anyway.
I feel that with how many stuns prot has access to anyway, some way to change that 1s stun into a 2-3s daze would be very welcome.
Prot with high resilience wont work.
You NEED the def stats to kill something at all.
Exceptions are slots without SBV gear but stacking a bit res wont work anyway.
For the stun problem:
My suggestion is to look @ diminish returns and use intercept wisely before charging.
Anyway you are able to skill Howl for pvp if you want to.
@ Fqubed
I got sbv gear in arena and hardly 27k life, with shout 30k and nothing bursts me down.
Especially when you got a weapon with chain rogues are ridiculous.
My enemies always try to focus me @ beginning and make me use SW / Hot / SB and most dds are hitting themselves to dead.
Then they try to kill my druid but in most cases without success because they used anything on me.
You can even fake your spec by changing weapons.
Im doin it every time.
Forgive me if im wrong but i didnt see any specs for Fury Warriors thrown in here. Did i just look over it or is Fury not a good PvP spec? Allong with that, what would you suggest the best class of warrior for Horde is? Ive heard differing oppinions. Ive heard some say Tauren and some say Orc.
Bullet points:
*Improved Zerk Stance should be better than Unending Fury.
*Improved Berserk Rage helps much vs. classes that do not fear/incap - burn it for an extra 20 rage.
*Improved DW vs. Improved Enrage - One point of enrage is nice to burn for Enraged Regeneration.
*Build is overall slanted towards sustained damage, with assumptions that I'm not the focus target of trains.
The difference between the almost right word and the right word is really a large matter--it's the difference between the lightning bug and the lightning. - Mark Twain
Bullet points:
*Improved Zerk Stance should be better than Unending Fury.
*Improved Berserk Rage helps much vs. classes that do not fear/incap - burn it for an extra 20 rage.
*Improved DW vs. Improved Enrage - One point of enrage is nice to burn for Enraged Regeneration.
*Build is overall slanted towards sustained damage, with assumptions that I'm not the focus target of trains.
Why you didnt skill 3%hit ? ... Thats 99 hit and that would be converted into ap 198 ( item level, gems ).
Imp Berserk Rage ? I'm missing 2 deadly set pieces now and my rage generation is way enough.
Sacred shield can be dispelled and priest shield is very fast removed by 2~ autohits.
Intensify Rage ? Well, nice against fear but you can always around the corner.
And i usually need to use anything 1 time and we won.
Why you didnt skill 3%hit ? ... Thats 99 hit and that would be converted into ap 198 ( item level, gems ).
Imp Berserk Rage ? I'm missing 2 deadly set pieces now and my rage generation is way enough.
Sacred shield can be dispelled and priest shield is very fast removed by 2~ autohits.
Intensify Rage ? Well, nice against fear but you can always around the corner.
And i usually need to use anything 1 time and we won.
Well with enough hit gear those 3 points in precision are certainly better spent elsewhere. I don't know what Riot's gear is like now (armory at work = look at me, I'm not doing shit!) but I remember it well enough when I played alliance and it was typically pretty good. I wouldn't try for much more than 10% total hit now (5% when the patch hits), which is easily obtained with the ilvl 213 pve gear many high rated warriors are running around in. My build includes precision but that is out of necessity rather than preference.
Imp Berserker Rage I could see being more valuable than static damage from Unending Fury in situations, it is all preference. It wouldn't be very useful against priests which is where you would probably want the rage the most, unfortunately.
If you go the imp zerk rage route then intensify rage seems like a worthy investment. Again, the only alternative is more static damage, and your mileage out of that is dependent on gear/group comp.
Correct, I have 8% hit without Precision, so Weapon Mastery allows me to use actual enchants.
Intensify Rage is a very very very very very good talent.
If you're really that interested I'll be Fury sometime that weekend so I'll probably log out in Fury gear.
The difference between the almost right word and the right word is really a large matter--it's the difference between the lightning bug and the lightning. - Mark Twain
Is anyone able to kill Hpaladins/Rshaman/Rdruids as prot? Is my warrior just not using Shield Block + Shield Slam effectively? Am I not assisting with damage sufficiently (deep resto druid)? We gave up on it after fair number of 10 minute games that we just afk'd out of with the opposing healer at full mana.
No need for an incredibly detailed response, just a "you're doing it wrong" or a "it's hopeless" from someone that's given the combo some time would be helpful.
Second question: does Dual Wield Spec increase shield slam dmg by 25%?
The only way to kill a Resto druid as prot would be to jump them without them starting to stack blooms.
Resto shaman are capable if you get some lucky crits during silences, but not really. Holy paladins, probably impossible.
The difference between the almost right word and the right word is really a large matter--it's the difference between the lightning bug and the lightning. - Mark Twain
Prot with high resilience wont work.
You NEED the def stats to kill something at all.
Exceptions are slots without SBV gear but stacking a bit res wont work anyway.
For the stun problem:
My suggestion is to look @ diminish returns and use intercept wisely before charging.
Anyway you are able to skill Howl for pvp if you want to.
How is defense vs resilience at mitigating melee criticals? I guess with good defense people will have a hard time hitting you at all, but what's a good ratio of defense/resilience, cause I'm guessing you still can't completely ignore resilience in a pvp setting?
Specing into Piercing Howl is one option I've considered, but that means only getting 9 points into arms at best, with the main drawback being no Impale.
As for the stun problem, the problem is still that if you're charging a target who is running away from you, due to lag you'll "land" outside of melee range. This is a latency issue with Charge that has been around since vanilla wow and is obviously hard to fix..
Correct, I have 8% hit without Precision, so Weapon Mastery allows me to use actual enchants.
Intensify Rage is a very very very very very good talent.
If you're really that interested I'll be Fury sometime that weekend so I'll probably log out in Fury gear.
So I am to assume the people at 1800 as prot either ran the ladder without facing these teams (or dodged), ran the table against everyone but these teams, or played with a healer capable of offering heavy support?
For resto druids, we had a bit of luck cycloning to remove LB stacks, but a single swiftmend puts a severe dent in our warrior's burst.
So I am to assume the people at 1800 as prot either ran the ladder without facing these teams (or dodged), ran the table against everyone but these teams, or played with a healer capable of offering heavy support?
For resto druids, we had a bit of luck cycloning to remove LB stacks, but a single swiftmend puts a severe dent in our warrior's burst.
Either that or you've only looked at them when they've respecced prot. I know my warrior sometimes just goes pvp spec when we pvp and then like 2 hours later goes back as prot so it would never update on armory.
"Oh he's a sad little man? He's thrown a kettle over a pub, what have you done?"
How is defense vs resilience at mitigating melee criticals? I guess with good defense people will have a hard time hitting you at all, but what's a good ratio of defense/resilience, cause I'm guessing you still can't completely ignore resilience in a pvp setting?
Specing into Piercing Howl is one option I've considered, but that means only getting 9 points into arms at best, with the main drawback being no Impale.
As for the stun problem, the problem is still that if you're charging a target who is running away from you, due to lag you'll "land" outside of melee range. This is a latency issue with Charge that has been around since vanilla wow and is obviously hard to fix..
I got 35% block and 25k armor in pvp def gear so melee crits dont hurt me at all. Highest execute crits from arms warrior are something around 5-6k and easy to heal. With a good spec you still have around 60~70% avoidance and you dont have to care about melee hits / crits at all. Sometimes rogues / dd combos still have a very good burst even against def tanks but you can outplay that burst by using shield wall or playing good with your healer.
Spells hit a bit harder but i always skill 1 point into spell reflect. So im able to reflect every 10 seconds and still have the possibility to go around "line of sight" objects and support my healer by spell reflecting spells targeting him.
I would not spec into piercing howl since impale is one of the most important skills. Same counts for deep wounds that does a lot of damage that cannot be mitigated.
I know about that problem and it's very annoying especially when enemies in arenas are jumping around all the time.
But i was thinking about the stun of intercept. It's longer than the stun of charge so you will be able to hamstring the enemy.
@ Zure
It's hard or maybe even impossible to kill good Hpaladins. We just avoid them by spamming them with CCs and interrupts. We usually try to keep the DD apart of his Hpaladin to lower his HP under 70~60%. Followed by Intercepts / Charge / Shield Bash silence / Heroic Throw Silence / Charge / Fear / Bear stun / Cyclone rotation to make the Hpaladin use his bubble or kill the DD when the hpala has CD on bubble. So we usually prevent the paladin from healing for 5~20 seconds and as long as the other partner is not a DK, I usually 2hit - 3hit him by using trinket, shield block and recklessness combined with imp. disarm and a good timed charge or stun.
Almost the same tactic for Hshamans. I try to support my healer as good as i can by avoiding damage on him and meanwhile i'm hitting the shaman or DD till he is oom. Then we get the shaman out of fight and burst the DD.
Hdruids are somhow very easy to kill. You can dispell most of the hots by using shield slam and stacking 5 SA and catching them in caster form make them very damageable to burst. You can spell reflect nature's grasp and you can equip just some PvP gloves to get the hamstring rage cost lowered.
How do you guys value items for PvP. Do you have any PvP values (both for arms / fury?)? I myself sometimes got a tough time deciding between a PvE vs a PvP item. If anyone got some guiding numbers it would be great
How do you guys value items for PvP. Do you have any PvP values (both for arms / fury?)? I myself sometimes got a tough time deciding between a PvE vs a PvP item. If anyone got some guiding numbers it would be great
If it has resilience it's usually considered a PvP item.
Originally Posted by tarrek
he stun problem, the problem is still that if you're charging a target who is running away from you, due to lag you'll "land" outside of melee range. This is a latency issue with Charge that has been around since vanilla wow and is obviously hard to fix..
I don't think it's that hard to fix. Right now, charge/intercept/intervene all bring you to the outermost edge of the unit's hitbox. If they brought you to the center instead, by the time you arrive you'd still be in range to hit the target. On a lot of PvE encounters you don't want this because it would potentially put you in a bad spot for cleave or something, but if for PvP they changed what part of the hitbox you charge to it could dramatically improve the problem you describe.
I don't think it's that hard to fix. Right now, charge/intercept/intervene all bring you to the outermost edge of the unit's hitbox. If they brought you to the center instead, by the time you arrive you'd still be in range to hit the target. On a lot of PvE encounters you don't want this because it would potentially put you in a bad spot for cleave or something, but if for PvP they changed what part of the hitbox you charge to it could dramatically improve the problem you describe.
Obviously it is, because if it was easy it should have been fixed long ago.. Or maybe Blizzard just doesn't see it as a problem because they don't think anyone in their right mind would pvp as prot? (Or ever have mobs that run away from the tank, since the same problem applies there.)
It's not a problem with Intercept usually, because Intercept stuns for 3 seconds and unless on DR or in extreme lag situations you have enough time to close the gap and hamstring your victim. Charge doesn't give you a window of opportunity that's long enough, and Hamstring isn't usable in defensive stance. With the low rage generation you have with sword and board in pvp shifting to berserker to intercept+hamstring isn't something I'm happy to do as it leaves me with very little rage left of what little I already had..
Putting you on top of the target at least in pvp would probably solve the issue, or at least alleviate the problem and make Charge feel more useful. Being able to Charge someone every 15/12 seconds and break all snares and roots in the process sounds like an awesome pvp ability, but its usefulness is greatly diminished by it not working properly.
There are many ways to fix charge - it's just that blizzard has declined to implement them, preferring to until they "fix it right", or whatever.
Shadow step would have the same problems, except it gives a movement speed buff so that the rogue can catch a moving target. A short speed boost after charge/intercept would be the same fix they've done for shadowstep and correct the problem...
Or any of:
- Remove charge stun from diminishing returns would partially solve the problem
- Add a 1sec root after the charge stun
- Build a short hamstring effect into charge
- Have pvp charge put us in the middle of hitbox instead of outer edge
- ignore range checks vs charged targets for the next 1sec after charge
- increase the range of piercing howl to 15yds to guarantee that it will always hit a target after charge
- have charge pull targets back to the position of the charge and stun them there
There are many ways the problem can be band-aided so that it is not as severe without actually fixing it correctly.
- Add a 1sec root after the charge stun
- Build a short hamstring effect into charge
You can come close to this now. Just create two macros, charge/hammy and intercept/hammy, for PvP and spam them on the way to the target. Due to client/server lag the hamstring will usually land on the target at the same time as the stun.
Relwin: Besides, the BB is not some ivory tower of WoW knowledge, it's just less stupid here than elsewhere. DeeNogger: Not less stupid, better stupid. The BB takes stupid very seriously. Now if you will excuse me, I have to go misspell the word fire.
The proper way to fix it would be to change the Stun into a root or daze effect. As root and daze are less powerful forms of control the duration could be buffed to 2-3 seconds, which means you'd get in range before it breaks.
Moreover, I advise that Hamstring must be usable in defensive stance.
A really simple fix that shouldn't cause them any increase in movement-tracking-client-server headaches (I know blink was buggy as all hell for a long time for terrain / pathing reasons and that only takes one character's movement into account, not two...) would be
After a successful Charge, your next Hamstring or Piercing Howl will attempt to hit your Charge target regardless of range or facing.
As someone who unfortunately plays with ~300-400ms latency, even macro spamming I can rarely get a Ham on a moving target after a Charge, and sometimes see targets blink 15y away or even behind me. Given that Warrior PvP is so fundamentally based on the ability to keep Ham on to apply any pressure whatsoever, and the 1s stun on Charge seems designed precisely to allow the Charge -> Ham sequence, I think this would be both a fair change, and VERY easy to implement.
Edit: Oh, I see that Dysent made a similar suggestion in his list already, although I submit that the facing issue can be a real one too, I have certainly been put 'past' my opponent after a Charge....
Here are my experiences after across 3 weeks of Protection in 3v3 arena
- Group composition: Unholy DK, Holy Paladin, Protection Warrior (Me)
- The highest rating we reached was ~1940.
- My spec focused on damage and group utility. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
- I used full DPS gear, KT Heroic fist/shield, Deadly PVP gloves. My AP would sit around 4500 with kings/horn with ~28% crit in battle stance. Stacking AP works well because Conc/Shockwave hit for 75% of AP and your other damaging abilities (heroic strike, shield slam, devastate) have innate 15% bonus to crit from talents.
I was almost never the target except for a few cases where I allowed myself to get jumped/dismantled by a triple DPS team. The DK was also not a target because DKs were far too defensive last patch. So our general strategy was for the DK to stick on the opposing team's healer while I mitigated the DPS that were attacking our holy paladin. I would build a rage bar and then turn to the healer for a burn. We would combine silences and stuns and it was fairly effective way to get kills. Occasionally I would get lucky with some crits and quickly blow up a DPS (which is quite fun).
When a teammate got pressured a protection warrior brings a lot to the table. Intervene shield wall, shockwave against the melee, disarms, group spell reflect, etc. The burst damage with heroic strike and slam/conq/shockwave is also very respectable.
So what becomes the problem pre-3.08?
-Priest/Shaman who know how to defend against a DK with disease removal. No disease = unholy DK's damage hits the crapper.
-With no offensive dispell, pretty much any team with a BOP could pose a problem. If the BOP landed on a Boomkin or Mage we were very quickly in trouble.
-High DPS classes whose damage I could not mitigate (i.e. mage, rogue, BM hunter) means our healer died before theirs.
- If their healer survives our burst and I burn my cooldowns, we had very little chance of recovering.
What's the problem in 3.08?
- Our DK would start to get focused. In 3.08 a DK is a good target, and if they put pressure while leaving me alone I would not be very useful. Without a coordinated burst, protection is dead weight.
- In general, damage is just too high at higher rankings. Even if I try to save our healer teams still blow up our Paladin in a few seconds. Our paladin has ~650 resilience and a saracb brooch--he's not slacking.
In conclusion 3v3 at higher ratings is just a massive DPS race (big surprise). The game simply moves too fast for protection's utility to matter at this time. It's way more fun to play, but without sustained damage and MS you are going to fall short.
Bullet points:
*Improved Zerk Stance should be better than Unending Fury.
*Improved Berserk Rage helps much vs. classes that do not fear/incap - burn it for an extra 20 rage.
*Improved DW vs. Improved Enrage - One point of enrage is nice to burn for Enraged Regeneration.
*Build is overall slanted towards sustained damage, with assumptions that I'm not the focus target of trains.
Considering PvP Gear doesn't really have much hit, I would spec 3/3 precision and go for more resilience based gear. Unending Fury is better than Imp Zerk Stance because you switch to battle against rogues / druids. 3/3 Iron Will is probably better too because you only need 15 rage to reflect. This is the way I would spec.
I'm very interested in seeing where Blizzard is taking pvp from here, with GC saying they agree that burst damage is too high at the moment. It's anyone's guess what they'll do about it though. Increase the effect of resilience or nerf the worst burst-offenders? I'm hoping for the second option myself.
What does this mean for warriors? They already nerfed the RNG burst arms had in sudden death, so I feel we're one step ahead of the events there and will probably dodge the cutting block if they decide to nerf the big burst classes next patch. I don't think anyone consider warriors a bursty class any more, at least not enough to be noticed among arcane mages, prep/muti rogues and ret paladins.
From my own point of interest, where does it leave prot pvp?
01/09/09, 11:30 AM
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