Let's start a rogue 'hate' thread to discuss ways of beating rogues as X class. With the start of S5 and the popular Mutilate/Preparation PvP build, many non-rogues have had much frustration and difficulty surviving against them and their team in Arena-style scenarios. If you are a rogue, feel free to post here to tell us how to win vs you in a PvP situation. If you are a non-rogue class, post possibly not so well known tricks or gimmicks you have used to gain an edge.
Muti/Prep Facts:
Mutilate is a base 60 energy attack that hits with both weapons +181, has 15% increased crit chance, a 20% DIM, and a 50% DIM against poisoned targets.
Their eviscerate has a 15% DIM.
All combo moves have 30% extra crit bonus damage, for +130% critical strikes.
They have a chance to avoid 4% of all ranged attacks and spells.
They have increased stealth detection, and anti stealth detection.
They take 20% extra healing.
They run 15% faster than normal.
They reduce movement effects durations by 30%.
They have a 100% chance to apply crippling poison if they apply wounding, mind-numbing, or instant poison.
They have 110 energy, each melee crit gives them 2 energy, all abilities cost 10 less energy in stealth and for 6 seconds after stealth.
Their finishers have a 60% chance to give a combo point and a 20% chance per point to restore 25 energy.
If their combo point generator crits, they get an additional combo point.
They have Cold Blood, when used guarantees them a crit, usually an eviscerate.
They do 20% more damage with special attacks you when you are under 35% health.
After they use all of their Evasion, Sprint, Vanish, and Cold Blood, they can use them again with Preparation.
They can get away with wearing high amounts of PvE gear, due to their healing taken increase and ability to lock down a given target and their defensive cooldowns.
| Ability | Cooldown |
|---|
| Kidney Shot | 20s |
| Preparation | 10m |
| Cold Blood | 3m |
| Sprint | 3m |
| Blind | 2m |
| Vanish | 2m |
| Evasion | 3m |
| Cloak of Shadows | 1m |
| Dismantle | 1m |
Possible other cheese with glyphs:
[Glyph of Vanish]
[Glyph of Sprint]
[Glyph of Evasion]
[Glyph of Preparation]
[Glyph of Vigor]
[Glyph of Eviscerate]
General:
To avoid sap in the beginning of the game, run up to their partner(s) and cast something on them or heal others already in combat to get in combat. It is also important to do this after you are blinded without your insignia, as you are likely to get sapped after the blind is finished.
They cannot dodge attacks when they are stunned, incapacitated, or hexed.
Death Knight
As a DK, its worth mentioning that even with two sets of cooldowns, mutilate rogue's lack of cheat death makes them a very viable target for focus or switch. A Frost DK almost always focus the rogue as the prime dps target in any bracket of the arenas. Rogues cannot dodge spell attacks such as death coil and are suceptable to the ghoul stun which makes them vulnerable to attack even with evasion up. Death Grip/chains of ice is very effective for peeling the rogue off of your partners. Using Lichborne at the start of the match will make you undead, immuning you to sap.
Druid:
Feral Druids:
-Feral druids have many tools to keep rogues at bay. Faerie fire and bleeds can prevent them from stealthing too long without vanish. Dire bear form has better survival and damage products than a rogue does when going toe to toe. Bashes, cyclones, roots, as well as feral charge his can keep the rogue's damage on you and others managable.
You're not going to win the who-can-open first game Versus a smart rogue. It's usually best to wait for them to just start ganking on you or your partner first. This really depends on composition and rogue personality however.
If the Rogue has an idea where you are, sometimes its better just to
get in combat and shift to Bear. A Bear is not going to die to a solo Rogue, unless said Bear is in caster/cat form when he gets opened on. Make sure Nature's Grasp is up. Sometimes you just need to run, and you're going to have a hell of a time getting a normal root off.
Mage:
Surviving a mutilate rogue once you have decent gear as a frost mage is quite easy. Your goal is to force them to blow their trinket on one ability, then hit them with another. The two abilities I reference here are deep freeze and polymorph. Landing long enough to land one of either on a rogue when he can't trinket is usually a win. You absolutely have to have ice armor on vs a geared rogue or you will die. Most rogues will open with either cs or garrote. If they garrote (more likely), simply attempt to move out of melee range. They will get stuck in shattered barrier. At this point they will either vanish or cloak to break the nova. You can attempt to break the vanish by hitting them with counterspell at this point, if you are successful at breaking vanish, simply cone of cold them while strafing away and they will be forced to cloak. If they vanish and you were unable to cs it, frost nova immediately to break them out of stealth. When he cloals, simply ice block. At this point he will, depending on cooldowns available, either stand in front of you waiting to gouge, stand on you spamming shiv, vanish, or attempt a restealth. If he stops attacking, he is attempt to restealth, drop block and hit him with something such as freeze, cone of cold or frost nova. If he is waiting to gouge, simply drop block a little early and spin away from him to prevent it, then kite away. If he vanishes, break block early and try to bust him out with frost nova or freeze. If he spams shiv while standing on you (his best move), hit him with a root as soon as you drop out of block. Since his cloak is now down, you can deep freeze him here, but wait a brief second (use cs if its up) to see if he (prep?) vanishes first (or he could vanish immune your deep freeze). He will have no choice but to trinket deep freeze once it lands. At this point, either fake cast sheep to draw out kick then sheep, or pop icy veins if you have the glyph (or escape artist as gnome) to break crippling and root or snare him with an instant to get enough room to cast a polymorph freely. Once he is stuck in a sheep, move away, resheep, make sure you have elem out and are far away, and open with a frostfire bolt. This will snare him and put a dot on him while his cloak is down that will break him of stealth if he manages to restealth somehow. At this point, it';s a very easy kite.
Golden rules:
A) Never stand next to your elemental, the rogue will quite gladly 2 shot it if he can, often during a gouge on yourself.
B) Never trinket unless you get blinded, or he will blind and restealth (or you will have to ice block and then die while the rogue is cloaked)
C) Never use your first ice block before cloak.
This is obviously a 1v1 guide and doesn't pertain to when the enemy has a dispeller. In a situation like that, it's generally up to your partner to peel for you so you can land a sheep on the dispeller before attempting to burst the rogue. The strongest point I can emphasise here though is to play around the rogues trinket and cloak, it is those two abilities detirmine wether you will win or not.
Paladin:
Priest:
Play with a class that can peel the rogue from you, you will not survive a rogue alone for extended periods. The best class to peel a rogue from you is another rogue more than other classes. Utilize shields and use your fears at the right times. Hope they aren't undead.
Hunter:
Shaman:
Escaping Lockdown: As a resto shaman it is very important to keep your globals always in use against a rogue, you should be riptiding when it's up, spamming poison cleansing totem (given the 1 sec GCD) when it's not, and screaming to your teammates for help (dismantle, intercept, sheep, etc) when your trinket is down and your kidneyed. Always, always trinket the first kidney if you are the main target and you don't have a paladin to get you out of it. You can very quickly die with kidney and multiple dpsers on you. Since wound is generally going to be up, a NS+HW probably isn't going to do that much, so sometimes what I find very successful is to actually go for a NS+Hex on the rogue, spam poison cleansing totem for a little bit, and then go for some real heals once wound is off (2 LHWs without wound>1 NS+HW with). Don't worry about dismantle on yourself, it doesn't actually remove the armor your shield gives.
Helping your teammates: If you aren't being targeted, its very important to put an earth shield on the target who is; this gives the +20% healing from LHW and allows a target to stay up even if you get cc'd for a short period of time. Try and keep riptide on cooldown, it decreases the chance you will get into a bad spell lockout and try to get those quick LHWs off. If hex isn't down already, its generally best to hex the rogue. Keep poison cleansing totem down, and if your target is at full HP, keep spamming it. Always keep in combat, and if the rogue vanishes, purge somebody constantly or heal your in-combat teammate.
It is possible for a rogue to cloak Hex and remove it AFTER he is already in frog form, so if you aren't careful you might end up wasting your NS if you go for NS+Hex. Hex has a lot of weird properties; it still allows you to use some physical abilities while Hexed (including totems and even bandaging), and apparently cloak is also included as well. Rogues can also stealth and vanish while hexed.
It's worth it to
cleanse poisons as soon as a teammate helps peel, but while you are getting attacked it's generally not worth the mana or gcds to spam poison cleansing totem since they get re-applied for free pretty much instantly.
Stoneclaw totem brings rogues out of stealth via its taunt.
Warlock:
/leave arena. No seriously, Warlocks are rogue's favorite targets because they are uterrly useless. Best shot is to get improved succubus and use shadowfury to get a few casts off before the rogue realizes he needs to blow cools to lock you out. Get partners that that can setup heavy control on the rogue. Needs more clarification.
Warrior:
Escaping lockdown: Intervene your partner, turn around and intercept the unsuspecting rogue for a few precious seconds of freedom.
Surviving Burst: If it's a DPS burst team you are facing, and you are the target of a cheap shot, it is likely the rest of the team will burst you down. If you do not have your healer already preparing to heal the burst, then trinket the first second of the kidney shot, and equip your shield in defensive stance and use shield block and possibly reflect or other defensive abilities. Or, intercept a nearby enemy or intervene a nearby ally to free yourself from the lockdown.
Helping your teammates: Most of the time warriors do well against rogues which are attacking other targets. The term most oftenly used is called "peeling". Intercept stun, disarm, demoralizing shout, intervene macro. Time your intercept for when the rogue reveals himself from stealth and disarm if you can before the rogue kidney shots. It is also possible to intervene and take the kidney shot for yourself. It is also possible to intervene the sap or cheap shot, and place a slow on the rogue before he can kidney shot while your partner gets to safety. It is not however ideal to pester the rogue too much to where he focuses his attacks on you. Your goal is to keep the rogue interested in his target so you can hit him in the back. If an equally geared/skilled rogue is on you, it is likely that he will be able to apply more pressure and damage than you are able to return. However, being in defensive stance and using revenge in your rotation it may be possible.
Breaking out of turtle: As a fury warr, higher rated rogue teams will stick to the warrior much more often than the other. It is pretty difficult to go toe to toe with a rogue and usually ends up with a shield and defensive stance going between revenge and bloodthirst while the rogue is tearing you to pieces and/or your healer is going OOM. The only means of escape is to intercept your enemy or intervene your partner with the crippling poison removed at that time. You should use retaliation while KS and dismantle are on c/d to encourage the rogue to swap off so the warrior can stop turtling. Using shield wall and then equipping your offhand and going into berserker to use whirlwind and DPS while their KS/Dismantle is down helps in returning some damage during that time shield wall is up. Because fury lacks the revenge dps of arms toe-to-toe, a fury warrior should start instead sundering a rogue while turtling with shield on while revenge and BT cool. The intent of this is to set up a kill using all available cooldowns. Once the rogue is sundered, use either the intervene/intercept method with zerkrage and bloodrage or fearshout/trinket -> nitro -> intercept so you don't have to swap stance. You'll want to hit deathwish before you begin and recklessness right before the intercept so its GCD doesn't hurt your stun time. After you break free and you have your cooldowns active, as you are getting away you should swap your weapon and into zerk stance before you intercept the rogue. HS/WW->BT-> Heroic Throw is usually enough to get them low enough to scare them into a vanish or fall over. Piercing howl to break them out and whack them while they are off guard and have your partner interrupt all saves on the rogue. This is purely ideal and not guaranteed to work.