Chaggi

wtf really? Can Paladin bubbles do the same thing?

 

Jehryn

I don't think Paladins can stealth so that doesn't really matter

 

dysent

I've found that playing as fury warr, higher rated rogue/healer teams will stick me much more often than my healer - these are the rogues I have the most trouble with. Fury can't toe-to-toe a muti rogue at all.

Fury should use Retal while KS and dismantle are on c/d to encourage the rogue to swap off so the warrior can stop turtling. I try to run shieldwall right after CS for the initial KS/dismantle while my partner is sapped/blind and then retal afterwards.

Because fury lacks the revenge dps of arms toe-to-toe, a fury warrior should start instead sundering a rogue with shield on while revenge and BT cool. The intent of this is to set up a one-stun kill using all available c/d's.

Once the rogue is sundered, use either the intervene/intercept method with zerkrage and bloodrage or fearshout/trinket -> nitro -> intercept so you don't have to swap stance. You'll want to drop deathwish before you begin and recklessness right before the intercept so its GCD doesn't hurt your stun time. I generally go HS + WW, BT + HS, HThrow, piercing howl (because his reaction will be vanish 9/10 times), then follow with a second intercept to finish.

If you've got a pally healer, have him BoF your KS and add hammer or hammer+repent - makes the entire process easier and more reliable.

Edit: clarity

 

Bula

Probably but paladin bubble absorbs significantly less damage so it will be less effective.

 

Whatev

I just tested this and it doesn't work. I shielded a friend, he stealthed, we started a duel, I hit him with holy nova and it popped him right out.

Okay, after slightly more testing, damage that's absorbed does not bring you out of stealth, but getting HIT, whether it causes damage or not, does destealth you, so shielding the rogue will not prevent arcane explosion from destealthing but it WILL prevent Blizzard, etc. from destealthing you.

 

Bula

Are you certain that your holy nova didn't do more damage then the shield absorbed? Because shields do work on several AOE's, but there are always exceptions, I have not personally tested all of them. It definitely will work against the one I did note however (Death and decay).

 

Whatev

Because Death and Decay is a non-hit AOE, like Blizzard and Rain of Fire. Arcane Explosion counts as being "hit" so it will destealth you.

 

Bula

Since I'm not the one who said it would protect you from arcane explosion I guess I'm good then. Thanks for the test info.

 

Davorien

No one has added any info for warlock v rogue, and they are really cutting into me. If my Demonic Circle isn't really well placed, and i mean on a higher platform or behind a wall, I generally die. I'm trinketing the Cheap shot or the kidney and following with Shadowfury, fear dot dot and they almost always trinket or CoS it. Then Im pretty much forced to port or Deathcoil and Im out of cooldowns, waiting for Shadowfury to come up again.

I'm still used to Shadowstep so I'm having trouble, any help would be appreciated.

 

Jehryn

Well to be honest, I don't think there is alot of advice that would help you. The reason there are so few warlocks in the arena these days is because they're virtually a free kill for any good rogue. In 2v2 I've got a wide grin whenever the opponent is a lock since I'm 99% sure to win. For the larger brackets I'd suggest relying on your team members to peel the rogue of you and keep him slowed.

 

Whatev

Basically what it comes down to--and this applies to shadow priests also--is that against almost any class, warlocks are pretty much boned if they don't gain the initiative early on. You need to force them to respond to your moves rather than being stuck responding to theirs--haunt warlocks in particular can be surprisingly annoying to kill once they get debuffs rolling.

To see what I mean, go outside of town and find a rogue who's just farming or whatnot and gank them; you'll be surprised how easy it can be. Essentially what will happen is that the rogue will be forced to blow a set of cooldowns just to achieve parity, whereas in a set piece battle like arena the reverse is true since you have to trinket just to avoid being killed inside of stunlock. So, you need partners who are good at helping you grab the initiative--like another rogue, a ret paladin, or something in that vein.

 

Mearis

How is a warlock or shadowpriest meant to grab the initiative?

An undead rogue is immune to the first two fears - given that fear has a 30 second cooldown, unless someone else saves you, you'll have 1 minute before you get any relief.

The rogue is guaranteed the opener, and unless he is mentally challenged, you won't get any cast time spells off. Your first set of dots will be shed with clos.

As a shadowpriest/warlock your fighting chance against a rogue consists in bringing another rogue that will chain stun the rogue off you and give you a chance to get spells off. The advantage you have is that rogues are incredibly squishy versus other rogues, so if their rogue opens on yours, there is a non-trivial chance your rogue can kill him in the initial cheapshot.

<manly> then my sister calls and proposes the one thing that has never before occured in my entire life

 

Jazai

As a Frost or Blood DK ( I switch between the two) No matter which spec i choose I always have Lichborne, and that's great for popping at the start of an arena as you are considered Undead for the duration. That means, no Sap, Sheep, Polymorph, Charm, or Fear for 15 seconds. It's also great for the miss chance if the rogue decides to open on you. Hysteria is also awesome for keeping yourself or another teammate out of sap, the damage it causes will break it immediately. In addition to the awesome Super Cleave spam blood can get with Hysteria and the Rune Weapon up.

I also have Death Grip / Chains of Ice macro'ed together so that I can immediately grip and Ice the Rogue off of my usual Disc Priest partner.

 

Jazai

Also, one more thing. I have had my DRW follow a Rogue around and beat on him for its entire duration. It keeps him in combat and unable to stealth unless by vanish. And I'm pretty sure I even saw it kick him out of Vanish one time. Although I'm not certain. Confirmation on that?

 

Melkortopia

I play a rogue in a ~1800 2v2 team (with a healer, a paladin), and we actually have alot of problems with Warlock + Healer teams. (Though I'm a gnome, so no WotF fear-breaking.)

I found the warlock teleportation spell to be really powerful against me in 2v2 matches. The warlock would blink to his teleport spot and fear me (and then my partner) before I could get over to him, and then he'd move away from the port location to continue dotting. I'd get back on him, and he'd blink back. If I went on the healer, the warlock would CC me and mana drain the healer, get Unstable Affliction casts off, etc. That teleport spell is amazing for warlocks in arenas versus rogues.

 

Jazai

Oh, and to the Warlock situation, you are screwed my friend, for now, sorry. My rogue partner and I kill all of you in about 7 seconds....

 

• frmorrison

Since DRW counts as a pet, I remember back in TBC that pets would follow and continue to dps Rogues even when they vanish. Pets were fixed since then, but maybe DRW dodged that fix.

 

• LodeRunner

Pets will follow you if you're out of combat and try to stealth. Vanish will always stop a pet follow, but stealth does not.

 

Bula

I know this is the thread where others QQ about us not the other way around. But, you can't say with 100% certainty that vanish will ever do anything at all =/

 

Gourd

It would theoretically absorb enough damage to make this a non-issue, however I'm almost certain that it does not provide the same benefit because the absorption is reactive.

 

Jehryn

I play the exact same setup Paladin/Rogue at 1800-1850 rating and I've never had a problem with Warlock+Healer teams. I'm actually having trouble picturing a situation where I can't a kill warlock. When the match starts I make sure I know where the teleport location is, then I open on the Warlock: CS, Mut, CB Evi, Mut, KS and I pop CLOS. The warlock will trinket and consequently teleport to his spot (or he dies very fast), I Sprint towards him with CLOS still active (Often they waste Howl), Gouge, Vanish and open again. In 95% of the cases the warlock will be dead by this point. If he somehow survives and saved his Howl I trinket, Kick his fear and finish him off.

Note I didn't use Preparation.

 

Whatev

As I said in my post, against rogues and feral druids you need someone else to help you do it.

 

Sumie

For warlock vs. rogue, your best chance at success is going Destro spec and rolling with improved succubus. As long as they're not undead, you'll win a surprising amount of rogue duels. Try to get as much damage as you can on the rogue before they blow cloak (by chaining shadowfury, immo -> conflag, then reseducing, etc.) Once they cloak/vanish, they're pretty much out of outs, since they typically use the trinket on the first seduce. You on the other hand have teleport, death coil, your trinket, and if need be (and if DR has reset), another instant seduce.

In arenas, however, you'll need the help of a partner to peel that rogue off you. This is why most warlock comps only work with another rogue, or a druid/pally healer.

 

Chaggi

What's the healer doing at this point? HoJ + Blind?

 

Jehryn

Well since the warlock is pretty much doing zero dmg my healer is attacking and stunning the other healer. But with wounds up constantly it doesn't really matter alot what their healer does, the Warlock will die anyhow. (Unless it's a Shaman, damn hex).

@Sumie

Succubus does seem the only way to counter a rogue, but although I've seen such Warlocks in BG's, in arena they usually have a Fel Hunter out.