finnstoney

I'll save ya the trouble Talaus, I wrote a blog post a few weeks ago with my analysis on this, I'll repost the results here. sorry I didn't post sooner.

Elemental Focus
* 1880 Mana per Talent Point
* Based on my target dummy tests on the PTR the Clearcasting proc rate is about 2.25% and will only effect 2 spells: ES & LB
* Conclusion: A completely wasted talent point

Shamanistic Focus
* 4000 Mana per Talent Point
* Based on 174 mana saved per shock, assuming about 23 shocks per 3 min fight (used on average about every 8 sec)
* Conclusion: Useful in 5s where the additional mana talents are needed and Replenishment is not common. As it stands now I won’t be taking it for raiding 10s or 25s.

Improved Stormstrike
* 7900 Mana per Talent Point
* Based on 879 mana returned per SS, assuming 18 SS per 3 minute fight (used on average about every 10 sec)
* Conclusion: better use of 2 talent points than Ele Focus + Sham Focus. A must have for PvP, 5s, 10s, and most likely 25s.

Shamanistic Rage
* 10,000 Mana per Talent Point (scales with gear)
* Based on an 11k mana pool, using SR with 1k mana remaining, and only needing once in a 3 minute fight.
* Odds are though that it won’t be needed at all in a 3 min fight and may only be needed in longer fights.
* Conclusion: great for "oh $#!t" and for long-run boss fights, good utility talent for any level of play.

Conservative estimates are used for estimating cooldowns. For example, though you can use SS every 8 seconds (as of build 9637) we’re not going to get to it every time so I added 2 sec to every average CD usage

Summary:
* Imp SS & SR are clear winners
* SF is optional
* Ele Focus is a waste of a talent point

(ps, holla at me if I shouldn't be linking back to my own blog, but that was the original research and a few comments from readers there)

May all your hits be crits!

 

Imadraenei

The section on Two-Hand Viability still refers to the old 0/42/19 build granting 9% melee hit from talents. A minor discrepency, but I thought it might be worth noting since Nature's Guidance doesn't exist anymore.

 

Rouncer

updated Expertise section, 2hand weapon section and the Totem section.

To do (help/input from community appreciated):

- update runspeed section to properly compare Icewalker versus Tuskarr/Cat Speed

- Determine values of new trinket and totem options from Ulduar

- add a section with math on Frostbrand coefficient and interaction with Frozen Power and compare dps using Frostbrand versus Flametongue for PvP situations* (will also require waiting to see if the Frostbrand coefficient of rank 9 goes live in 3.1 bugged at it's current 6% or if it will be fixed to be either 10% or hopefully 12%)

- implementation of a mana regen section*

*(discuss with Malan to determine if worth including in the TTT)

Alt mage - Rounce

 

Malan

I am inclined to suggest that mana regen isn't something we really need to worry about, for the following reasons:

* Mana cost of spells is level and talent dependent
* A combination of talents, abilities, consumables, gear, and group/raid buffs/auras/procs makes mana regen negligible and a non-issue. The exact combination of which of those inputs is required to make regen a non-issue will vary wildly from individual to individual and group to group.
* The sim has a mana simulation available and if used properly can warn the player of mana concerns and the player can find a combination of inputs that eliminates the issue.

Agree on the need for a FT/FB coefficient section, though that might just be worth branching into it's own wiki page since it's applicable to all shaman really.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Rouncer

I was thinking more in regards to Frozen Power and how that is going to work but I think we can accomplish both by making a new wiki page about it and tying it in with specifics for Enhancement here.

That said, I won't spend even a minute working on anything for the wiki about Frostbrand till that coefficient is fixed.

This is the PTR thread I made about the issue World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> [BUG] Frostbrand Weapon

Alt mage - Rounce

 

Levva

Is it in order to update the Sim section to mention and link Rawr.Enhance at Rawr - Home the work I've done to try to get the model reasonable and now with v1.6.5 of the EnhSim importing Rawr configs means that using Rawr to generate rough dps guidance then confirming things by clicking export then clicking import in EnhSimGUI makes the process of configuring and testing the sim really simple.

Now of course EnhSim 1.6.5 only went live less than 2 hrs ago and I know that both Tukez & myself have a few tweaks to do to ensure that both programs flow beautifully together however I would hope that the TTT could advertise the availabilty of this tool to work with EnhSim and make manual EnhSim config fiddling a thing of the past, or at least a lot less painful

Author of ShockAndAwe Enhancement Shaman max dps addon
Author of Rawr.Enhance an automated gear checking program that can generate config files for EnhSim.
Please use the EnhSim by Tukez, Sylvand & others to simulate what gear, priorities etc are the best dps.
FAQ: Hit cap 342 Draenei, 368 Horde, Expertise rating cap 140 with 3/3 Unleashed Rage. Cap those before worrying about other stats.

 

Rouncer

updated.

Levva, once you have the procedure ironed out fully would you mind writing up a step-by-step export/import guide for addition in the TTT?

Alt mage - Rounce

 

Levva

Sure, no problem at all.

Author of ShockAndAwe Enhancement Shaman max dps addon
Author of Rawr.Enhance an automated gear checking program that can generate config files for EnhSim.
Please use the EnhSim by Tukez, Sylvand & others to simulate what gear, priorities etc are the best dps.
FAQ: Hit cap 342 Draenei, 368 Horde, Expertise rating cap 140 with 3/3 Unleashed Rage. Cap those before worrying about other stats.

 

Malan

Rounce I think we can at least reference the conclusions here about SF vs EF vs ImpSS in the talent section, noting that SF and EF aren't such an important part of a PvE build anymore.

For 3.1 I think we need the following updates:
o Any section talking about fast weapon viability with FT
o References to FT scaling
o References to Imp SS reducing the SS cooldown
o All references to base SS being 10 sec
o Change expertise cap values to take note of UR bonus.

Anything else?

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Blasta

I think you need to update EP values for 3.1, because haste and armor pen. will give more benefit after patch.

 

Malan

Absolutely not. The one set of EP values are provided as an example only and we are not playing the game of maintaining various sets of values this expansion. Run the sim is the final answer.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

SentinelBorg

How do you get only a 2.25% procrate for EF? It should proc on every shock and LB crit, which should by all means occur much more often then 2.25%.

 

Talaus-Mok'Nathal

SF is better mana return than ImpSS on a point by point basis. Unfortunately, the sim has a couple issues when it simulates mana (such as ES costing no mana when you don't have SF) so I ran some sims without mana just to get the casts per minute of both ES and SS and got an average of 8.6 and 6.5 respectively (this is without any points in Reverb).

SF: 18% of base mana * 45% saving * 8.6 times per minute = 69.7% of base mana a minute
ImpSS: 20% of base mana * 6.5 times per minute = 130% of base mana a minute

So SF is ~70% base mana a minute per point while ImpSS is ~65% base mana a minute per point. And SF is better the more points you have in Reverb. I understand that mana isn't usually an issue if you have a ret paladin, but writing a dismissal of SF will cause more players to go into ImpSS assuming it's better.

Other things that may need updating with 3.1

Talent Build
Removal of simulation Windfury Chasm from the haste section
Slight change of the Agility vs. Run Speed now that Unholy Aura no longer boosts raid speed
Similarly, change of Boots Enchant
Removal of the Herbalism profession bonus

 

Malan

Ok look, if you're going to post things IN THE WIKI ARTICLE at least make sure you got the decimal places right.
ImpSS = 0.20 * 6.5 = 1.3 * 100 = 130%

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Talaus-Mok'Nathal

Hey, if you hadn't deleted my previous post that showed this and kept the other post that falsely stated that that SF is worse, I wouldn't have had to go through all of that again.

Small other things that could be changed. Might want to include magma totem in the optimal dps rotation as it's not mentioned anywhere in the article other than at the top, and a mention of the benefit feral spirits gain with BL.

 

MogsterTich

Edited to fix my huge misunderstanding of when the Expertise from Unleashed Rage applied--thanks.

Suggested addition to Expertise section:

Before, when conventional wisdom thought that Expertise Rating was awarded in "chunks", the Expertise Skill Cap to achieve 6.50% dodge reduction was 214 Expertise Skill (equal to 24 Expertise Rating).

Now, with the new thinking that Expertise Rating does not round down to the nearest integer, and given that it takes 32.79 Expertise Skill per 1.0% of Dodge reduction, the new required Expertise Skill Cap to achieve 6.50% dodge reduction is 213.14 (=6.5 x 32.79).

In 3.1, Rank 3 Unleashed Rage was changed to grant 9 Expertise Rating. Given that 1 Expertise Rating is equal to 8.20 Expertise Skill, Rank 3 Unleashed Rage increases the shaman's Expertise Skill by 73.80. Thus, the new 3.1 Expertise Skill cap for an Enhancement Shaman with Rank 3 Unleashed Rage is 139.34 (=213.14 - 73.80).

Note: This is my first EJ post and I'm not 100% sure of my numbers so please look it over thoroughly. I'm just a dude tryin' to help out.

 

MogsterTich

Rounced, the Talent Builds don't seem to work properly with the 3.1 Wowhead talent calculator. I think the 16/55/0 one is supposed to be:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

And the 16/51/0 one is supposed to be:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

But double-check my work please!

 

Gman The 3rd

The Expertise granted by the talent Unleashed Rage is always on, it is not part of the 10% AP proc.

 

• Raut

Disclaimer: I know posting seemingly random specs in here is a big no-no but the old 16/55 is outdated. Perhaps set up two or three specs for different scenarios where you are trying to cover fundamental needs?

The following is for maximum personal DPS in 25m raids with good raid synergy and with enh buff talents:

I've recently raided with this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I've skipped all regen talents bar Shamanistic Focus. With the current raid synergies I only had to use SR once or twice for mana, mostly using it for DR. The kicker with this spec is of course Reverberation. The talent was frequently discussed and ridiculed back in the day as it in itself isn't worth that much DPS. Enhancement shamans now struggle with colliding cooldowns, namely SS and ES. If you hit your CDs you soon find ES linked to SS and having an effective CD of 8 seconds. There is no room to fit two shocks between SS without having to delay SS. With Reverberation you unlink them.

Edit: Ok, SR is a regen talent as well, but it's so damn good I'd take it even if I never had mana issues.

Baby, you can hold my balls.

13:17 < Kalroth> gays on men tv? I love that channel

 

Totentanz

you unlink them on the first rotation maybe, then the gcd interference between ES and SS will continue depending on CL/LB/LL/LS/MT/etc gcd.
BTW, is the 3.1 glyph of shocking really working as intended (removing the gcd from all shock spells)?

 

• Raut

Only LB, SW and possibly MT will interfere with SS/ES rotations, the other spells have lower priority so they will not get in the way. Magma is only more important when you have multiple enemies and SW is on a three minute CD. This leaves only LB interfering really.

Rotations are dead, we know this, but there is still a lot of fixed abilities that makes our priority queue mostly a rotation. Without Reverberation you know shocks will be starved by SS because you cannot fit two shocks inside the SS CD. ES is the next spell in line after SS so the only way to manually unlink them without Reverberation is to cast another spell after SS and before ES. Only more important spells should be cast between SS and ES so casting "lesser" spells is a DPS loss. ES having only a 6 second CD also means it soon eats up the head start you gave SS and you're in the same situation again.

Baby, you can hold my balls.

13:17 < Kalroth> gays on men tv? I love that channel

 

Totentanz

I don't think so. Consider having still some time on ES and SS cds, then you'll cast a lower priority, this will trigger the gcd and your ES or SS will be delayed so the SS/ES timers will further desinchronyze.
Furthermore, SS and shocks CDs are not multiples, even with the reverberation spec, so they will howerever stack sooner or later.
So, the 1/6 = 16.7 % ES damage gain offered by the 5/5 reverb spec is actually lower.
The only good way to test if Reverberation is a good use of Talent Points is running the EnhSim program.

Atm I'm using a 3/3 Improved shields 3/3 call of flame spec that seems a very good one, according to the simulator results.

Sorry if this isn't completely IT, feel free to delete if needed.

 

Soulflare

In patch 3.1, the new expertise rating required to cap expertise is reduced to 140 due to the 9 expertise gain from unleashed rage 3/3. Please update this.

 

Orcheon

Was trying to update the math for a comparison between Cat's Swiftness and Icewalker, substituting the gem values for crit/hit for icewalker. Not an exact comparison, but I feel it's a decent approximation.



Using 5000 dps as a benchmark:

12 crit rating = 12 agility
12 hit rating = 12 agility


(D+24A)(T-t) < (D+6A)(T-t/1.08)

which simplifies to

D > (18T - 18.444t)/t


so if we let D = 5000:

278.802t > T

300/278.802=1.076

so over a 5 minute fight, if you spend 1 second running , run speed will be better

Any problems here with my math? It makes sense to me because the ratio of damage increase from BC to Wrath to the value of the enchant is dramatically different--DPS has increased nearly 5 times over, while the value of the enchant has increased by maybe 2-3 times the original at most.

 

• Raut

Apologies for not responding sooner. FML etc.

I agree that simming the problem usually is the answer to this and all attempts to verbally argue a case is moot compared to the sim result. However, the sim is near utopia. It will cast your Mael-LB the nanosecond it is ready given you are out of GCD. A player will not.

Reverberation is not a simple 16.7% shock damage increase. As you said, other CDs will interfere. My argument is that without Reverberation you will end up with starvation on ES due to the tight SS CD. If SS and ES were your only spells, the effective ES CD would be 8 seconds unless you delayed ES to unsync them. Earlier math(back in BC) showed that pretty much any delay to any spell to reap proc benefits or waiting for more powerful spells to come off CD is a net DPS loss so delaying to unsync is a bad idea. Of course SS and ES are not the only two spells we have but you often see ES getting in the way of SS without Reverberation.

SS(0), ES(1.5), SS(8), ES(9.5)
or
SS(0), ES(1.5), ES(7.5), SS(9)

One is getting starved. In the first case you have to rely on other spells to push ES back to unsync them. In the second you are delaying SS with the added Mael procs and nature damage boost.

I ran tests in EnhSim last night and I couldn't find a higher DPS spec than 20/51 with 5/5 Reverberation. Loosing Reverberation for any other DPS talents resulted in DPS loss. I'm aware that the argument above only is true if your other CDs don't interfere with SS and ES, the question is how often is this happening. My sim run suggests I'm on to something. Perhaps it's my rotation, gear, etc that is the case of this. What spec do you see the maximum potential with?

Edit: I know this isn't the place for discussions but we're trying to come up with a better spec for the TTT article. Not everything can be "run the sim" and we know the old 16/55 isn't the best DPS spec.

Baby, you can hold my balls.

13:17 < Kalroth> gays on men tv? I love that channel