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Old 10/20/10, 7:41 PM   #181
Tyvi
Never, Mags. Never!
 
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Human Death Knight
 
Turalyon (EU)
Originally Posted by Fulrem View Post
We've been finding our MT pally's getting snapped since 4.0.1 to the point they used my DK alt and our druid ex-tank for sindi, warriors I'm told are in a similar light. My personal opinion is that DKs may end up getting some form of CD based change, we now have quite a number of substantial CDs on short timers.
I wouldn't recommend drawing any conclusions from this since level 80 balance is totally out of whack anyway and Blizzard's focus is on tuning level 85 at the moment. For example, with the most recent changes, Paladins can be Block capped and can heal themselves really well (not Death Knights level, but it's pretty significant) with Word of Glory/Protector of the Innocent spam.
The problem with 4.01 was that Blizz basically took a rough snapshot of Beta and then just used that to patch live realms with. Live is just too many builds behind to draw any meaningful conclusions for tank balance.

And FWIW, except for not boosting the min heal Improved Death Strike works on Beta. The new changes with ~8 sec Rune CDs and 30 RP Rune Strike are also fantastic so look forward to that.
That said, Dual Wield is still superior for survival, though because of how terribly Scent of Blood scales with a slow 2h.

EDIT

Originally Posted by Gurnsey View Post
Good point about Blade Barrier. Maybe pool RP a bit so that you're not getting RE procs when the blood rune is up.

I haven't tested Blade Barrier, I assume it lasts for 10s after your last Blood run recharges?
I made a quick video to demonstrate something similar: YouTube - DK Starting rotation
That was back when Blood Tap was still at 60 seconds, Runes were regenerating at 10 secs and Rune Strike was not usable in Blood Presence without avoiding a swing. If Blood Tap would have worked, I would have used it to weave in Bone Shield and Frost Fever (Outbreak is usable every 2nd Frost Fever application so it works out neatly).

Last edited by Tyvi : 10/20/10 at 7:48 PM.


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Old 10/21/10, 2:24 AM   #182
Saxxon
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Illidan
Grukthar I'll just say I was wrong on the Imp Blood Tap. To test it I made a specific effort to use it and there is benefit as you say to getting an extra DR up to use for HS, DS & even as I was using it, BB for more AE threat. So put strictly in terms of AE its an extra BB every 30 secs, which Crimson Scourge also gives. Thats at least 1/3 increase in base incidence you can use it over that time assuming no DRs (6 vs 8), though I'd would normally use 1 Blood for Pest at the start of that cycle. 4 PC T10 is a no brainer at that point, though unlikley I'll see it on my DKs unless I come down with ninja disease in my PUGs (not likely either since no purple is worth 6 years of reputation on ones integrity).

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Old 10/21/10, 7:37 PM   #183
mfwhite
Glass Joe
 
Troll Hunter
 
Demon Soul
Originally Posted by Gurnsey View Post
mfwhite, I'm not talking about 4t10, I'm talking about the "turn a Blood Rune into a Death rune for 20s" effect of Blood Tap.
I was directing that more at the conversation between Saxxon and Grukthar from the previous page.

Edit: @Saxxon, since triumph and frost emblems were all converted to Justice Points I ended up being able to purchase an extra piece of t10. After that I simply ran 2-3 heroics every day or two and was able to pick up my last piece of tier in no time. Even as an alt its not difficult to achieve your 4pc which will increase your survivability greatly and is something I consider necessary for fights like LK. I plan on doing this to finnish out my dps set as well.

Last edited by mfwhite : 10/22/10 at 1:25 PM.

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Old 10/25/10, 5:48 PM   #184
GravityDK
Piston Honda
 
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Tauren Death Knight
 
Dath'Remar
With parasites, which we are not conclusive on their absolute value nor which situations they will be valuable at L80, I do believe there is another useful method to consider it: the alternative use of the points.

There is no trade-off between Parasites and any survival-talent. It's only a trade-off to threat talents.
Therefore, until threat is a real problem, parasites are the logical default choice.

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Old 10/26/10, 12:55 AM   #185
Evelario
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Death Knight
 
Bloodhoof
I'm not sure if my math is right, a little sleep deprived, but Veteran of the Third War is increasing stamina by 14.4% instead of the reported 9%. This is taken with no buffs.

Frost spec no presence no wep : 3022 stamina
Blood spec no presence no wep : 3458 stamina

So: (3458-3022)/3022 = 14.4%

Frost spec no presence weapon/no rune : 3325 stamina
Blood spec blood presence weapon/rune of stoneskin gargoyle : 4191 stamina

So: (4191-3325)/3325 = 26.04%

1 point of stam after talents/runeforge/presence becomes 1.26 points of stam which seems to match up with 1.144(VoTW) x 1.08(BP) x 1.02(RSG).

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Old 10/26/10, 4:06 AM   #186
Yörgle
Piston Honda
 
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Pandaren Monk
 
Elune (EU)
Originally Posted by GravityDK View Post
Parry and dodge have the same rating. They're equal now.
I think that you could also add the fact that they have the same DR, I think this is a huge change in our habits. =)

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Old 10/26/10, 7:17 AM   #187
Tyvi
Never, Mags. Never!
 
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Human Death Knight
 
Turalyon (EU)
Originally Posted by Evelario View Post
I'm not sure if my math is right, a little sleep deprived, but Veteran of the Third War is increasing stamina by 14.4% instead of the reported 9%. This is taken with no buffs.
Blood spec gets another +5% Stamina from Plate Specialization. That plus the 9% from Veteran of the Third War is 1.05*1.09=14.45%.


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Old 10/26/10, 12:26 PM   #188
Evelario
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Death Knight
 
Bloodhoof
Originally Posted by Liar View Post
Blood spec gets another +5% Stamina from Plate Specialization. That plus the 9% from Veteran of the Third War is 1.05*1.09=14.45%.
Ah you're totally right, completely forgot about stamina from plate specialization.

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Old 10/26/10, 9:11 PM   #189
Sokaris84
Von Kaiser
 
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Blood Elf Priest
 
Frostmourne
On the topic of Blood Parasites.

Can anyone confirm if they are still eating healer's smart heals? If they are, then it's entirely counter-productive. It's always been the main reason why you don't take them, and I haven't seen anything to say that they have fixed it.

Has anyone tested it? =/

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Old 10/27/10, 10:05 AM   #190
Drakkan
Banned
 
Gnome Death Knight
 
Dunemaul
Does anyone know when they are going to fix the rune strike and rune regeneration? I thought they would have implemented the hotfix by now. They still plan on allowing the use of rune strike without the need for a dodge or parry and increasing rune regen by 20%, right?

I ask because I had reforged to mastery but single target threat was hurting due to the slow rune regen and much less rune strike chances. I am wondering if this will be changed soon or if I should go back to dodge and parry > mastery until cata is released and this is fixed.

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Old 10/27/10, 10:58 AM   #191
Ramalama
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Illidan
Transitioning into 4.0 I've had some trouble with initial misdirect effects wearing off and dumping aggro onto the highest DPS. With or without misdirect effects, threat is certainly tighter than it used to be (especially early in a fight before Vengeance stacks up) but so far I've preferred not to receive misdirects so I can better gauge my true threat. I'm sure mods will help with this in the future (or perhaps some already can).

This topic got me thinking about the interaction between glyphed Dancing Rune Weapon (a +50% threat modifier while DRW is active) and misdirects. It's entirely possible that if DRW is active while a misdirect effect wears off, the threat subtracted would be modified by +50%. In fact, from a programming standpoint I think this is a very likely to be the case. If it is, a misdirect given before DRW is used that falls off while DRW is in effect could result in a net loss of threat. If the threat loss isn't modified by DRW but the threat gain is (or if one can time DRW to wear off toward the end of the misdirect before it "returns" the threat), then proper timing of misdirects with DRW could result in a threat gain. In any case, it would be really useful to know how the abilities interact. There are a number of possibilities:

DRW affects the threat gained from misdirects while active but not the threat lost.
DRW affects the threat lost from misdirects if it is active, but not the threat gained.
DRW affects the threat gained while it is active, but all the threat lost (including threat generated by the misdirect before DRW became active)
DRW doesn't affect either the threat gained or lost by misdirect effects.
and so on in various permutations.

It's easy to see that depending on the timing of when each effect is used, how they overlap with each other in duration and how the DRW modifier affects things, there could be a net gain or a net loss in threat due to the misdirect.

If someone knows a good way of testing this (or if it's already been determined) I'd be really interested in the results. For now I'm saving DRW for after misdirects, or just not using misdirects at all (for fear that turning on DRW toward the end of a misdirect would be a net threat loss).

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Old 10/27/10, 11:41 AM   #192
WimpySmurf
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Terenas
Originally Posted by Ramalama View Post
Transitioning into 4.0 I've had some trouble with initial misdirect effects wearing off and dumping aggro onto the highest DPS. With or without misdirect effects, threat is certainly tighter than it used to be (especially early in a fight before Vengeance stacks up) but so far I've preferred not to receive misdirects so I can better gauge my true threat. I'm sure mods will help with this in the future (or perhaps some already can).
I believe that is working as intended since they changed both MD and ToT to be non-permanent threat transfers. If by "dumping aggro" you mean that your threat drops by 10k when MD wears off, #2 on threat was only 1k behind you and the boss turns on him, then I'd say that's expected behavior.

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Old 10/27/10, 11:53 AM   #193
Ramalama
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Illidan
Originally Posted by WimpySmurf View Post
I believe that is working as intended since they changed both MD and ToT to be non-permanent threat transfers. If by "dumping aggro" you mean that your threat drops by 10k when MD wears off, #2 on threat was only 1k behind you and the boss turns on him, then I'd say that's expected behavior.
Yes of course, I know the new mechanics. I'm not saying it's a bug, I'm saying it's been causing me trouble so I prefer not to use misdirect effects. In any case, it's just a segue into the meat of my post, which is "how do misdirect effects interact with the DRW glyph threat modifier?"

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Old 10/27/10, 1:31 PM   #194
Gort
Don Flamenco
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Hyjal
Originally Posted by Ramalama View Post
Yes of course, I know the new mechanics. I'm not saying it's a bug, I'm saying it's been causing me trouble so I prefer not to use misdirect effects. In any case, it's just a segue into the meat of my post, which is "how do misdirect effects interact with the DRW glyph threat modifier?"
As misdirect/tricks are threat transfers, and DRW affects your threat generation, there is absolutely no reason to suppose they might. "You" generate none of the misdirect or tricks threat. DRW is merely a modifier like Blood Presence, Defensive stance, bear form, etc.

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Old 10/27/10, 5:50 PM   #195
runeblood
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
Alleria
I was tanking H-ICC25 last night and noticed a few things that became problematic:

1) Because of the IT nurf we really have lost that snap aggro ability that other classes enjoy. I thought that the entire purpose of the IT buff was to help alleviate the snap aggro problem. DRW works well but takes a few seconds to get enough RP to use it. When you have dps pounding on the pull that doesn't help much. Anyone else seeing this and if so what are you doing from keeping the Bear from grabbing initial aggro?

2) Does it make sense to stack dodge/parry like rune of sword shattering to increase rune strike procs until they fix rune strike? I tried this and it seemed to work well as it seemed that they were being stingy with the RS procs. I was at my max RP for lengthy periods of time without a RS proc. Eventually I would just throw a DC because my runes were on cool down. Adding this rune to my axe worked but I lost the armor/stam benefits of the stone gargoyle.

3) Should we be hit capped for spells as well? would this help increase threat generated by spell damage and if so would this help with AE tanking because of D&D, BB, and IT?

4) Does armor have the same value now that "Chill" has been removed?

5) There were times when I was both rune locked and RP starved. Does more haste recharge your runes faster and if so how much is needed to really tell a difference? Of course I could be using my resources wrong but I have never had that problem before.

Thanks for your feedback -

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