old Cataclysm DK endgame tanking [4.x] - Page 15

Tyvi · 10/30/10, 7:38 PM

Originally Posted by Gurnsey

Tyds, do you have a combat log for that fight? It looks like you don't get any Runic Empowerment procs in that whole video? That seems like a problem.

Didn't log the fight unfortunately and I must admit I haven't actually paid attention to that. Reviewed the video again and the first RE proc is at 1:19. Heh, Runic Empowerment sure is volatile, isn't it?

Counted all procs and apparently I got only 2 throughout a 2:30 time frame. Talk about unlucky. <_<

Gurnsey · 10/30/10, 8:04 PM

I thin I see it. Not sure why there's no Rune Strike! in your scrolling combat text for that one. It's hard for me to parse your fight visually, especially with the timer mod on your runes.

Anyway, I wonder if this is an issue with your priority, rather than just bad luck (that's <2% chance of only 2 procs assuming 12 RS in 120s.) It would be nice if we could get a mod to track our RE proc rate and procced rune distribution, so we could get some clear information on whether we're losing RE procs. Maybe I'll play around and see what I can do.

Tyvi · 10/31/10, 8:34 AM

I miscounted the RE procs. There are actually 4 of them and 14 Rune Strikes that could have procced a Rune (and atleast 1 RS I missed the timing of).
It would probably be a lot easier to see in the new patch when the action bar mods are saved and I do a rotation without trying to keep up Bone Shield or Death Pact but I still think this is mostly bad luck. DRW is a ridiculously huge RP drain, even with Dual Wield.

riggins · 10/31/10, 6:17 PM

I read a lot in here about 'rotation' for DK tanking, but I don't really see the point in it outside of the opener (which has already been covered in this thread). Once your opening sequence is finished, it becomes completely dynamic and is based on situation and procs. I get PM's and tells asking about tanking 'rotations' and I always reply with the same answer:

-If you need threat, use blood/death runes for HS while keeping up diseases.

-If you need healing/mitigation use DS. (inb4 you should always DS. No, you shouldn't always DS.)

Obv there are other variables that come into play, but for the most part its going to be changing constantly throughout the entire fight, especially w/ procs, parries, etc.

Example: If you have runes coming off CD quickly, use a DS to get them back on cd for maximum efficiency (ie You have 3 runes coming off cd w/in the same time frame and two more runes w/ < 5secs remaining, DS quickly to keep from having runes up while youre busy spending other ones). Relying on BT as part of your 'rotation' isn't a good idea either. There are going to be times where its needed defensively and you don't need to be in the habit of using it on cd.

Like I said, having a set rotation is fine on the opening of a fight (first 2 sets of runes), but after that, its pointless to try and follow a set rotation. Tanks need to get more in the mindset of looking at current variables in the fight and adjusting their ability choices instead of using an 'on paper' script.

Gurnsey · 11/01/10, 1:41 AM

Riggins, no-one is really promoting a strict rotation, RE and SoB procs alone will prevent that from happening.

This entire thread is also premised on fights where survivability is the priority. Which is why people focus on DSing as often as possible, because it's active survivability. It's also the tank mechanic that the tank has the most control over, which is why it's focused on. It's also key to our gear choices. If you've invested in Mastery and aren't usiing DS as often as you can't, you're wasting your gear. And in Cata, reducing healing you need to take over long stretches of time is more important that just staying up through the spikes, which is why not wasting opportunities to mitigate a little when the time is right is so important.

As for your specific recommendations, you're not taking anything about the mechanics of Runic Empowerment into account. Which means you're probably losing RE procs and getting procs for runes you don't need. You also don't seem to recognize that DS is often more threat than HSx3, in addition to being the key to our survivability. That's why we're talking about the mechanics, because there are a lot of gotchas, or opportunities to excel.

If your discussion of priority/rotation/whatever doesn't take these into account, then you're not going to be able to react correctly and fluidly to situations, because you're going to be playing catchup from not having enough resources/threat/health to do your job.

riggins · 11/01/10, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Gurnsey

Riggins, no-one is really promoting a strict rotation, RE and SoB procs alone will prevent that from happening.

This entire thread is also premised on fights where survivability is the priority. Which is why people focus on DSing as often as possible, because it's active survivability. It's also the tank mechanic that the tank has the most control over, which is why it's focused on. It's also key to our gear choices. If you've invested in Mastery and aren't usiing DS as often as you can't, you're wasting your gear. And in Cata, reducing healing you need to take over long stretches of time is more important that just staying up through the spikes, which is why not wasting opportunities to mitigate a little when the time is right is so important...

You also don't seem to recognize that DS is often more threat than HSx3, in addition to being the key to our survivability. ...

Actually, yes, people are talking about a strict rotation (ie 'x' rune always = 'x' ability which isn't the case). Read throughout the past page of this thread.

http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t105485-...9/#post1786778 <-- Example.

This entire thread is based on DK Endgame tanking which entails any situation you could be presented with while tanking 'endgame' content. I have tanked plenty of endgame encounters and I can assure you that there are plenty of fights/situations where threat is going to outweigh your ability to stay alive. There are going to be some fights where tank dmg is much more trivial than others, and some fights where tank dmg will be very intense. I'm not downplaying anything at all in regards to DS and the importance of DS. I'm merely stating that at no point should you follow a set 'rotation' other than keeping up debuffs/buffs. Most of this comes into play when discussing death runes anyways since its pretty obvious what to use the others for.

Just because you have mastery on your gear doesn't mean that you need to chain DS and it doesn't mean its wasted if you spend times during the fight prioritizing threat over mitigation/self healing. In the end you will use DS regardless, its just a question of how often.

If you need more threat, choosing to HS (w/ diseases active) is going to be more beneficial in terms of threat than a DS. While saying that DS is 3x the threat of HS, I'm sure that would only be the case if you landed a substantial effective heal and have full RP (which you won't if you are using RS efficiently). At the same time, you are consuming 2 runes at once instead of spreading them out over several GCD's which in turn will lower your threat:rune ratio not to mention at times leaving you with no abilities active.

Originally Posted by Gurnsey

As for your specific recommendations, you're not taking anything about the mechanics of Runic Empowerment into account. Which means you're probably losing RE procs and getting procs for runes you don't need.
...
That's why we're talking about the mechanics, because there are a lot of gotchas, or opportunities to excel.

If your discussion of priority/rotation/whatever doesn't take these into account, then you're not going to be able to react correctly and fluidly to situations, because you're going to be playing catchup from not having enough resources/threat/health to do your job.

I understand mastery, DS, RE procs, and all the components you feel compelled to remind me about. I'm not sure why you would say I don't take RE procs into account when I referenced them in the previous post:

Originally Posted by riggins

Once your opening sequence is finished, it becomes completely dynamic and is based on situation and procs.

What I would suggest in return is actually looking at the big picture (and what my point was to the last post). People don't need to be worried about having a specific 'rotation'. Adjust with the flow of the fight and make decisions based on the current variables (ie dmg intake / dps threat levels / buffs / debuffs / procs / etc).

I've played plenty on Beta and seen quite a bit about the above mentioned variables and how they are going to work in Cata. Here are some sample vids below and there are plenty more on my YouTube channel.

YouTube - Forlorn Legacy vs Chogall - Cata Beta Action
YouTube - Forlorn Legacy vs Maloriak - Cata Beta Action
YouTube - Forlorn Legacy vs Atramedes - Cata Beta Action
YouTube - Forlorn Legacy vs Theralion/Valiona - Cata Beta Action
YouTube - Forlorn Legacy and Phoenix vs Halfus Wyrmbreaker - Cata Beta Action
YouTube - Forlorn Legacy vs Conclave - Cata Beta Action
YouTube - Forlorn Legacy vs Ascendant Council - Cata Beta Action

Originally Posted by Gurnsey

I'm also sorely tempted to just ignore Blade Barrier

^Thats a joke right?

Edit: After rereading some of your posts I do feel somewhat inclined to ask what exactly are you basing this information on? I don't see anything about the DK you have linked to your EJ profile that says you even remotely have an input on DK tanking in an endgame situation. Is this all based off of 'on paper' theorycrafting or do you have another DK in a diff guild? Just curious.

tachycardia · 11/01/10, 12:19 PM

It's already been mentioned a couple of times, but just to clarify: in order to benefit from blade barrier, you don't need to have both blood runes on CD at all times.

You just need to have both on CD at some point roughly every 10 seconds. The best way to do this, if you want to ensure RE procs go to U/F, is to simply use your 2nd blood rune a second or so before the other one finishes its cooldown. Once you get used to doing this every 10 secs, it doesn't require too much effort.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned that I have been wondering about: In Cata, will Blood Tanks prefer fast or slow 2-Handers? Obviously slower weapons will make DS and HS/RS hit a bit harder, increasing threat (I'm not sure but I'm pretty sure these abilities are normalized, meaning the damage isn't astronomically higher), but faster weapons will increase your RP generation by a small amount via SoB, allowing you to RS and proc RE more often. I'm wondering if anyone has done the math to see which is preferred. I guess when it comes down to it, you are comparing threat (increased damage) vs. mitigation/threat (more DS's/RS's). In this case you usually prefer mitigation, but I'm wondering when you compare just the threat aspects whether there is a tradeoff. It seems the difference is probably minimal, but it would be nice to know.

thebitterfig · 11/01/10, 1:16 PM

With the discussion of weapon speed already brought up, I want to make sure I'm correct in my understanding of the logic behind DW tanking in 4.0.x - the greatly increased speed of attacks with DW compared to 2h consumes far more Scent of Blood procs, allowing more Rune Strikes, thus more Runic Empowerment, thus more Death Strikes for more shields, correct? To that end, how many additional Death Strikes are we looking at?

With RE at 45%, it's an extra DS per just over 4 RS, and something like an extra RS every 2 SoB with 2/3 SoB and 2 extra RS every 3 SoB with 3/3 SoB (compared to 2h with proc munching), so every 8 or 9 2/3 SoB procs we get, there will be an extra DS, 6 or 7 procs for 3/3. At a 15% proc rate, that's going to be something like every 60 attacks (46 or so, 3/3 SoB) you'll get enough SoB procs, and with a boss with a 2-second swing timer, that's one extra DS every 2 minutes (1.5 minutes). It doesn't seem like much, but this is all napkin math and could quite easily be wrong, miscalculate something, make bad presumptions, or just be missing the empirical reality behind how it all works in practice opposed to (very rough) theory. Overall, I'm looking for more information, rather than trying to show DW is a bad idea.

Other miscellaneous factors in the DW/2h split: White damage would increase due to higher DW scaling with AP, Strike damage would decrease considerably due to greatly lowered weapon damage but be slightly buffered by an increased number of strikes, and raw stats probably (total rating points in WotLK itemisation is lower with DW than 2h without question, not sure on Cata itemisation) decline slightly with DW compared to 2h although some of the stats on a 2h weapon are likely to be "wasted" in haste or crit.

bigwig357 · 11/02/10, 4:51 AM

Originally Posted by thebitterfig

With the discussion of weapon speed already brought up, I want to make sure I'm correct in my understanding of the logic behind DW tanking in 4.0.x - the greatly increased speed of attacks with DW compared to 2h consumes far more Scent of Blood procs, allowing more Rune Strikes, thus more Runic Empowerment, thus more Death Strikes for more shields, correct? To that end, how many additional Death Strikes are we looking at?

You can't DW tank any longer there are none of the talents available to make it viable, all your ability's are only going to hit with MH power so your OH might aw well be a fist for the good it will do you.

Your hits with RS and DS will be almost 50% of 2h comparison and that also means your Blood shield will be abysmal, until there is a change in the tree DW tanking is bad juju.

Jepson · 11/02/10, 5:31 AM

Originally Posted by bigwig357

Your hits with RS and DS will be almost 50% of 2h comparison and that also means your Blood shield will be abysmal, until there is a change in the tree DW tanking is bad juju.

DS heal has nothing to do with the damage it deals, so Blood Shield will be just like it would with 2h (assuming same stats etc). There were occasions where people were DWing as blood before 4.0, mostly due to getting a bit better avoidance and more healing done to them via Putricide's mace. The only thing it cost was threat and that's still the case.

Rugz · 11/02/10, 6:23 AM

It's really going to depend on specific situations, dual wielding is definately going to hamper your threat generation, having said that, using 2 1H tanking weapons is probably going to be a net increase in survivability, even if you reforge the crit/haste on a 2H into parry/dodge/mastery.

If I'm correct you can still swap weapons in combat, so you could carry a 2H for initial threat/DRW bursts, and then have 2 1H tanking weapons sitting around to swap in once your threat is stable, or if you're taunting off a tank with a high threat lead.

Seref · 11/02/10, 11:21 AM

I doubt 2 1H weapons would be a significant increase in survivability. Since I doubt Blizz will make slow tanking weapons, you'd be forced to use a dps 1H in MH and a tanking 1H in OH. So you're only gaining ~half itemization points worth of survivability stats pre-reforging. And since 2H'rs have higher numbers, thats more points reforged.

I don't think it'd be worth the threat loss. But I guess its up to you to decide.

Has anyone considered using the Cata weapon enchants instead of the DK runeforging?

bondra · 11/02/10, 11:58 AM

Why do you think 1h tanking weapons will be fast (i.e. less then 2 secs) ? Main reason behind fast weapons pre-Cata were "on next strike" type attacks. And now they've gone.

WimpySmurf · 11/02/10, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Seref

I doubt 2 1H weapons would be a significant increase in survivability. Since I doubt Blizz will make slow tanking weapons, you'd be forced to use a dps 1H in MH and a tanking 1H in OH.

Slow 1H tanking weapons will exist in Cata, the removal of on-next attacks means that warriors want slow weapons.

Yörgle · 11/03/10, 5:58 AM

Originally Posted by WimpySmurf

Slow 1H tanking weapons will exist in Cata, the removal of on-next attacks means that warriors want slow weapons.

Actually, on catawowhead, you'll only find slow tank weapons, for those who still doubt that all tanking weapons are slow in Cata. =)

FYI : Blue & Epic tanking weapons
Resi weapons really don't seem like an option as they all have Crit / Resi as secondary stat which is way beyond "meh"...

So if we end up having more survivability while dual-wielding, 1H tanking weapons seem to be a perfect fit. (Eventhough, for initial aggro we may prefer a 2H)
For the time being, 1H tanking rune is still IG.