While I agree with Riggins about the realities of RP pooling, I feel that it is important to point out the one noteworthy, if minor, side benefit of doing so in a Blood/Frost build. That being the Glyph of Death Strike. By being able to pool RP around/above 100 (because of RPM) our DS will hit even harder with the various benefits that come from that.
While I agree with Riggins about the realities of RP pooling, I feel that it is important to point out the one noteworthy, if minor, side benefit of doing so in a Blood/Frost build. That being the Glyph of Death Strike. By being able to pool RP around/above 100 (because of RPM) our DS will hit even harder with the various benefits that come from that.
Glyph of DS is capped at 40%, which would be 100RP. Pooling RP would give you the same effect, regardless of whether you are using the LB build or not.
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While I agree with Riggins about the realities of RP pooling, I feel that it is important to point out the one noteworthy, if minor, side benefit of doing so in a Blood/Frost build. That being the Glyph of Death Strike. By being able to pool RP around/above 100 (because of RPM) our DS will hit even harder with the various benefits that come from that.
I may be misreading your post based on how you worded it. [Glyph of Death Strike] caps its % damage contribution at 40% or 100RP (2% per 5RP up to 40%) so RPM doesn't affect the glyph's contribution by allowing RP to reach levels above 100. The glyph contributes additional damage (therefore threat) when pooling RP for Lichborne/DC spam but RPM doesn't affect the benefit of the glyph. Are you seeing another benefit besides periodic increases in DS damage/threat when you say "various benefits?"
You also have to consider that to maximize Lichborne's effectiveness, you use [Glyph of Death Coil]. So are you more in favor of dropping Heart Strike, Death Strike or Rune Strike for Death Coil?
Rojali, you are misreading. I was trying to make a minor point that Riggin's system has a lot more synergy going on then was noted. im noticing that everyone appears to be focused on one or two specific things and how they relate to each other and some of this is not only not in black and white, but is in freaking teknacolor. woot!
Most DK tanks aren't pooling now. without Riggins system theres no reason for it. so MOST of us are only getting an extra 10-25% out of that glyph depending on RP size. now with Riggins system (maybe he should trademark that) your going to WANT to hoard RP. a new concept. now while your absolutly correct that 101-130 RP have zero effect on DS output, they do have an important effect on your overall output. this "wiggle" room allows for Rune strikes while still maintaining the extra 40%. Also, considering that your going to be using RS less, this makes maximizing threat from DS even more important.
as for Glyphs, Id drop RS. RP pooling means fewer RS and Id rather maximize DS, and HS for trash. And my various benifites comment was actually directed at RP pooling over 100. big hits + RS = threat + dps + runes
Rojali, you are misreading. I was trying to make a minor point that Riggin's system has a lot more synergy going on then was noted. im noticing that everyone appears to be focused on one or two specific things and how they relate to each other and some of this is not only not in black and white, but is in freaking teknacolor. woot!
Most DK tanks aren't pooling now. without Riggins system theres no reason for it. so MOST of us are only getting an extra 10-25% out of that glyph depending on RP size. now with Riggins system (maybe he should trademark that) your going to WANT to hoard RP. a new concept. now while your absolutly correct that 101-130 RP have zero effect on DS output, they do have an important effect on your overall output. this "wiggle" room allows for Rune strikes while still maintaining the extra 40%. Also, considering that your going to be using RS less, this makes maximizing threat from DS even more important.
as for Glyphs, Id drop RS. RP pooling means fewer RS and Id rather maximize DS, and HS for trash. And my various benifites comment was actually directed at RP pooling over 100. big hits + RS = threat + dps + runes
No.
You really only pool RP for the following three things: Death Pact / DRW / LB. Other than that, you should be using rune strike as often as possible to get RE procs/threat/dmg output.
I actually dropped the DS glyph to make room for the Death Coil glyph since you aren't ever at a surplus amount for the majority of the fight - as noted in my initial post about LB spec. However, like I said earlier, I could see someone dropping either HS or RS glyph if they wanted. It's pretty much freedom of choice.
If someone has actual math on the threat value of HS/DS/RS glyphs I would be interested to see it. I know that it won't be 100% accurate due to changing variables in the encounters, but it would hopefully be able to show if there was a huge gap in threat/dmg values of the three.
*Edit: I guess you can throw Mind Freeze into that category also, but that goes back to my earlier post of saying any hard hitting tank fight will keep you from being hit capped anyway, so it's not really mandatory but rather a form of 'insurance' to assist w/ interrupts.
If someone has actual math on the threat value of HS/DS/RS glyphs I would be interested to see it. I know that it won't be 100% accurate due to changing variables in the encounters, but it would hopefully be able to show if there was a huge gap in threat/dmg values of the three.
I will run some numbers on this and come back with them.
EDIT:
Had to make some changes to BloodSim to be able to effectively run comparisons, but here are results using 359 Shalugdoom. Average of 25 eight minute fights.
With Death Pact / DRW / LB requiring RP to work and Glyph of DS, it makes a lot of sense to keep your runic power around a 100.
If there are 2 ways to manage RP:
1. You can use RS as often as possible, keeping your RP low unless you need it for a cooldown.
2. You can aim to maintain your RP at around a 100 the entire fight.
The only disadvantage of keeping your RP around 100 is when you start doing it. (losing out on 3x RS and possible RE procs)
If you start doing this at the beginning of a fight, you get the most benefit. Threat should be fine 30 seconds into a fight and the initial MD/TotT solves the first 30 seconds. (if threat is a bigger problem, you can always start pooling later on)
But once you reach a 100 RP, the good stuff begins!
You still use RS as often as when you keep your RP low.
Your DS will get a 30-40% dmg boost, compared to 10-20% if you keep RP low.
But the biggest advantage is that you always have RP available for when you suddenly need to use Death Pact / DRW / LB to survive.
I'm talking about unexpected things, like healers silenced/dead/out of range, tactics going wrong resulting in more dmg taken (on you and/or the raid) etc. Things you can't plan for.
So when needed you can instantly use one of these cooldowns instead of needing to build up RP first and possibly/often being too late.
With Death Pact / DRW / LB requiring RP to work and Glyph of DS, it makes a lot of sense to keep your runic power around a 100.
If there are 2 ways to manage RP:
1. You can use RS as often as possible, keeping your RP low unless you need it for a cooldown.
2. You can aim to maintain your RP at around a 100 the entire fight.
The only disadvantage of keeping your RP around 100 is when you start doing it. (losing out on 3x RS and possible RE procs)
If you start doing this at the beginning of a fight, you get the most benefit. Threat should be fine 30 seconds into a fight and the initial MD/TotT solves the first 30 seconds. (if threat is a bigger problem, you can always start pooling later on)
But once you reach a 100 RP, the good stuff begins!
You still use RS as often as when you keep your RP low.
Your DS will get a 30-40% dmg boost, compared to 10-20% if you keep RP low.
But the biggest advantage is that you always have RP available for when you suddenly need to use Death Pact / DRW / LB to survive.
I'm talking about unexpected things, like healers silenced/dead/out of range, tactics going wrong resulting in more dmg taken (on you and/or the raid) etc. Things you can't plan for.
So when needed you can instantly use one of these cooldowns instead of needing to build up RP first and possibly/often being too late.
I don't think thats optimal. The thing is you don't need to be sitting at 100rp the entire time 'just incase'. RP is not that hard to come by, especially with 2/3 or 3/3 SoB. Use RS as often as possible for RE procs. You should have a good idea for when you're going to be using your cds that require RP (ie DP/DRW/LB). You don't need to be sitting on a hair trigger the entire fight wasting Runestrikes and potential RE procs. In some situations sure, but not constantly. Remember, there are a ton of other cds to work in the mix too, LB/DRW/DP aren't the only options. You should be able to know roughly when you're gonna use them. Also, in the event things totally go to shit, you always have ERW for that extra RP boost.
Too many people are taking this LB runic 'pooling' too extreme. It's pretty much like a double cost DRW. You don't even really have to do anything for DRW other than hold off on a RS and then you've pretty much got what you need. Same principle just a bit longer.
I will run some numbers on this and come back with them.
EDIT:
Had to make some changes to BloodSim to be able to effectively run comparisons, but here are results using 359 Shalugdoom. Average of 25 eight minute fights.
Baseline
Death Strike
Heart Strike
Rune Strike
Damage Dealt
3481034
3568620
3555419
3537663
Increase
1.025160915
1.021368651
1.016267868
Threat
12923340
13209779
13169685
13277728
Increase
1.022164471
1.019062023
1.027422323
What are some of the variables in this. Ie.
How much runic were you sitting at for the DS modifier?
Were diseases up for the HS modifier?
How much runic were you sitting at for the DS modifier?
Were diseases up for the HS modifier?
Runic Power was not deliberately pooled (as I haven't coded this yet) for DS, so it was only up as it was available. The average, if I recall, was 20-30.
Diseases were up only from Outbreak and used 3/3 Epidemic.
I'd really like to know how it is possible to say that aoe threat is no problem (as it seems to be for most of you) without Crimson Scourge. I am skilled into Crimson Scourge and even then, at least in pulls where one HS would do less overall threat than one BB, I regularly have to taunt mobs off of our frost DK and somtimes our mages.
I consider myself to be - although far from perfect - a good tank (at least in regards to threat - which is what matters here - because I was a very good dps before) and I know how to play without wasting resources. Heck, I even try to force blood rune procs through RE by having the only rune on full CD being a blood rune.
This happens of course not mid-bossfight with stacked vengeance and spawning adds but at trash pulls without vengeance. Yes, trash is not a heroic boss but trash belongs to endgame tanking because even though it may not be too challenging you cannot skip it. And the faster you get through and the less you have to rez and rebuff dying dps, the more you get to fight against those heroic bosses.
Taking your current experience at 80 and trying to extrapolate it to 85 is not going to be accurate. Our area threat capability is based on the 85 dungeon experience - where you can no longer spam aoe on every pull without consequences and where DPS that pull aggro are intended to die. D&D, the occasional BB and HS will be enough because it's intended that you single target just about everything down.
The simple fact is that Blood Boil hits for comical damage even with a full stack of Vengeance. It has an 8% AP coefficient. With a base 8k AP, 175k health, full Vengeance and one Disease you're getting only 3500 damage. 40% more of something that's already that awful is just not enough. If it's 3 targets or less, Heart Strike is better anyway.
Even at 85 the basic AoE instructions don't change though. If you know you will need AoE threat then save runes and/or DRW for it. While it may not work on the first pack, every pack after that you should be able to save some converted Death Runes for Blood Boil spam for the next pack. You will get a feeling when you can stop building threat on the last remaining mob and start saving those Runes after running the instance a few times.
And for level 80 heroics or trash? Use partial to full DPS gear.
I don't think thats optimal. The thing is you don't need to be sitting at 100rp the entire time 'just incase'. RP is not that hard to come by, especially with 2/3 or 3/3 SoB. Use RS as often as possible for RE procs. You should have a good idea for when you're going to be using your cds that require RP (ie DP/DRW/LB). You don't need to be sitting on a hair trigger the entire fight wasting Runestrikes and potential RE procs. In some situations sure, but not constantly. Remember, there are a ton of other cds to work in the mix too, LB/DRW/DP aren't the only options. You should be able to know roughly when you're gonna use them. Also, in the event things totally go to shit, you always have ERW for that extra RP boost.
Too many people are taking this LB runic 'pooling' too extreme. It's pretty much like a double cost DRW. You don't even really have to do anything for DRW other than hold off on a RS and then you've pretty much got what you need. Same principle just a bit longer.
What Aixler is saying is after the initial saving up of 100 RP you can treat 100 RP as 0 for the purposes of decision making and not lose any RS. So in this mind set you RS when you get to 130RP (or maybe say after 120RP, to protect from wasting RP generation), instead of when you get to 30RP. Aside form the initial threat cost of getting to 100RP you get to do just as many RS, but you are sitting on 100RP at all times to allow you to get the extra benefit from the DS glyph, and if an emergency were to happen you have that RP there to use DRW or LB & DP.
That actually seems like a really nice combination of the various mechanics that you get for "free" when taking LB.
I don't think thats optimal. The thing is you don't need to be sitting at 100rp the entire time 'just incase'. RP is not that hard to come by, especially with 2/3 or 3/3 SoB. Use RS as often as possible for RE procs. You should have a good idea for when you're going to be using your cds that require RP (ie DP/DRW/LB). You don't need to be sitting on a hair trigger the entire fight wasting Runestrikes and potential RE procs. In some situations sure, but not constantly. Remember, there are a ton of other cds to work in the mix too, LB/DRW/DP aren't the only options. You should be able to know roughly when you're gonna use them. Also, in the event things totally go to shit, you always have ERW for that extra RP boost.
Too many people are taking this LB runic 'pooling' too extreme. It's pretty much like a double cost DRW. You don't even really have to do anything for DRW other than hold off on a RS and then you've pretty much got what you need. Same principle just a bit longer.
Just to add to the points everyone else is making, what he's advocating is no more a loss of RP than pooling at any other time.
If you ever pool to use DRW or LB+DS spam or whatever you might as well have pooled 3 minutes ago and enjoyed an extra 20-30% Death Strike damage in the interim.
The rate of RP generation and thus Rune Strike usage is exactly the same, all that changes is when you pool; right before you use the pooled RP or early in the fight to get more benefit from Glyph of DS until you use the pooled RP.
What Aixler is saying is after the initial saving up of 100 RP you can treat 100 RP as 0 for the purposes of decision making and not lose any RS. So in this mind set you RS when you get to 130RP (or maybe say after 120RP, to protect from wasting RP generation), instead of when you get to 30RP. Aside form the initial threat cost of getting to 100RP you get to do just as many RS, but you are sitting on 100RP at all times to allow you to get the extra benefit from the DS glyph, and if an emergency were to happen you have that RP there to use DRW or LB & DP.
That actually seems like a really nice combination of the various mechanics that you get for "free" when taking LB.
Some thoughts bug me about that 'freeness'. Couldn't you ever RS more than once in a row w/o to risk losing some of the pooling? RE is not at 100% which means that you sometimes have to use more than one RS to get a rune replenishment. Also isn't it that you couldn't use 4 non-RS skills in a row without wasting some RP generation if you choose to keep 90 RP as your base (DSing or even worse double DSing will kick this limitation sooner in; SoB procs not even minded)?
11/26/10, 12:48 AM
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