old Cataclysm DK endgame tanking [4.x] - Page 25

Spuddelkopf · 11/29/10, 3:46 AM

I'd really like to know how it is possible to say that aoe threat is no problem (as it seems to be for most of you) without Crimson Scourge. I am skilled into Crimson Scourge and even then, at least in pulls where one HS would do less overall threat than one BB, I regularly have to taunt mobs off of our frost DK and somtimes our mages.

I consider myself to be - although far from perfect - a good tank (at least in regards to threat - which is what matters here - because I was a very good dps before) and I know how to play without wasting resources. Heck, I even try to force blood rune procs through RE by having the only rune on full CD being a blood rune.

This happens of course not mid-bossfight with stacked vengeance and spawning adds but at trash pulls without vengeance. Yes, trash is not a heroic boss but trash belongs to endgame tanking because even though it may not be too challenging you cannot skip it. And the faster you get through and the less you have to rez and rebuff dying dps, the more you get to fight against those heroic bosses.

Lichloathe · 11/29/10, 9:40 AM

Taking your current experience at 80 and trying to extrapolate it to 85 is not going to be accurate. Our area threat capability is based on the 85 dungeon experience - where you can no longer spam aoe on every pull without consequences and where DPS that pull aggro are intended to die. D&D, the occasional BB and HS will be enough because it's intended that you single target just about everything down.

The simple fact is that Blood Boil hits for comical damage even with a full stack of Vengeance. It has an 8% AP coefficient. With a base 8k AP, 175k health, full Vengeance and one Disease you're getting only 3500 damage. 40% more of something that's already that awful is just not enough. If it's 3 targets or less, Heart Strike is better anyway.

Tyvi · 11/29/10, 1:45 PM

Even at 85 the basic AoE instructions don't change though. If you know you will need AoE threat then save runes and/or DRW for it. While it may not work on the first pack, every pack after that you should be able to save some converted Death Runes for Blood Boil spam for the next pack. You will get a feeling when you can stop building threat on the last remaining mob and start saving those Runes after running the instance a few times.

And for level 80 heroics or trash? Use partial to full DPS gear.

Groggan · 11/29/10, 5:19 PM

Originally Posted by riggins

I don't think thats optimal. The thing is you don't need to be sitting at 100rp the entire time 'just incase'. RP is not that hard to come by, especially with 2/3 or 3/3 SoB. Use RS as often as possible for RE procs. You should have a good idea for when you're going to be using your cds that require RP (ie DP/DRW/LB). You don't need to be sitting on a hair trigger the entire fight wasting Runestrikes and potential RE procs. In some situations sure, but not constantly. Remember, there are a ton of other cds to work in the mix too, LB/DRW/DP aren't the only options. You should be able to know roughly when you're gonna use them. Also, in the event things totally go to shit, you always have ERW for that extra RP boost.

Too many people are taking this LB runic 'pooling' too extreme. It's pretty much like a double cost DRW. You don't even really have to do anything for DRW other than hold off on a RS and then you've pretty much got what you need. Same principle just a bit longer.

What Aixler is saying is after the initial saving up of 100 RP you can treat 100 RP as 0 for the purposes of decision making and not lose any RS. So in this mind set you RS when you get to 130RP (or maybe say after 120RP, to protect from wasting RP generation), instead of when you get to 30RP. Aside form the initial threat cost of getting to 100RP you get to do just as many RS, but you are sitting on 100RP at all times to allow you to get the extra benefit from the DS glyph, and if an emergency were to happen you have that RP there to use DRW or LB & DP.

That actually seems like a really nice combination of the various mechanics that you get for "free" when taking LB.

Lanlaorn · 11/29/10, 7:47 PM

Originally Posted by riggins

I don't think thats optimal. The thing is you don't need to be sitting at 100rp the entire time 'just incase'. RP is not that hard to come by, especially with 2/3 or 3/3 SoB. Use RS as often as possible for RE procs. You should have a good idea for when you're going to be using your cds that require RP (ie DP/DRW/LB). You don't need to be sitting on a hair trigger the entire fight wasting Runestrikes and potential RE procs. In some situations sure, but not constantly. Remember, there are a ton of other cds to work in the mix too, LB/DRW/DP aren't the only options. You should be able to know roughly when you're gonna use them. Also, in the event things totally go to shit, you always have ERW for that extra RP boost.

Too many people are taking this LB runic 'pooling' too extreme. It's pretty much like a double cost DRW. You don't even really have to do anything for DRW other than hold off on a RS and then you've pretty much got what you need. Same principle just a bit longer.

Just to add to the points everyone else is making, what he's advocating is no more a loss of RP than pooling at any other time.

If you ever pool to use DRW or LB+DS spam or whatever you might as well have pooled 3 minutes ago and enjoyed an extra 20-30% Death Strike damage in the interim.

The rate of RP generation and thus Rune Strike usage is exactly the same, all that changes is when you pool; right before you use the pooled RP or early in the fight to get more benefit from Glyph of DS until you use the pooled RP.

Delacieux · 11/30/10, 9:03 PM

Originally Posted by Groggan

What Aixler is saying is after the initial saving up of 100 RP you can treat 100 RP as 0 for the purposes of decision making and not lose any RS. So in this mind set you RS when you get to 130RP (or maybe say after 120RP, to protect from wasting RP generation), instead of when you get to 30RP. Aside form the initial threat cost of getting to 100RP you get to do just as many RS, but you are sitting on 100RP at all times to allow you to get the extra benefit from the DS glyph, and if an emergency were to happen you have that RP there to use DRW or LB & DP.

That actually seems like a really nice combination of the various mechanics that you get for "free" when taking LB.

Some thoughts bug me about that 'freeness'. Couldn't you ever RS more than once in a row w/o to risk losing some of the pooling? RE is not at 100% which means that you sometimes have to use more than one RS to get a rune replenishment. Also isn't it that you couldn't use 4 non-RS skills in a row without wasting some RP generation if you choose to keep 90 RP as your base (DSing or even worse double DSing will kick this limitation sooner in; SoB procs not even minded)?