old Cataclysm DK endgame tanking [4.x] - Page 8

Dillirium · 10/14/10, 12:40 PM

i was dueling outside org just for the fun of it and to test stacking shields absorb ratio and i suddenly noticed that magic damage is being totaly overlooked by the shield.
tried with hunters doing arcane shot, warlocks basicly all spells and mage spells, the damage is totaly ignoring the shield which means the shield itself is only absorbing Physical damage / Melee damage (maybe bleeds as well didn't test that yet).

raivyne · 10/14/10, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Dillirium

i was dueling outside org just for the fun of it and to test stacking shields absorb ratio and i suddenly noticed that magic damage is being totaly overlooked by the shield.
tried with hunters doing arcane shot, warlocks basicly all spells and mage spells, the damage is totaly ignoring the shield which means the shield itself is only absorbing Physical damage / Melee damage (maybe bleeds as well didn't test that yet).

I think you made an error in your shield calculation before. I believe you divided your actual absorb amount by what you expected the absorb to be and came up with 77%. I believe that you should have divided the shield amount by the heal amount to gain the %. Just want to be clear so that we are dealing with correct math, if I am off then please say so.

Posted Last night:

Originally Posted by raivyne

Heal was 10850, so the shield for his 18.17 mastery should have been 113% or 12260.5 as he stated; instead he got a 9479, or 87.36% (of the heal) shield.

(bold part added for clarity)

It is good to have confirmation from blizzard that the ICC buff doesn't have any bearing on DS.

After looking at your single sample and riggins' numbers here's what we have

with 18.17 (113%) mastery, you are only getting 87.36% shields.

with 107%, riggins is getting 82.86% sheilds.

So with 6% more from mastery, you are seeing a 4.5% blood shield increase from riggins' blood shield %.

now it seems like perhaps we're dealing with some sort of scaling or DR for mastery? Either that or the single sample from Dillirium is stacked with a previous blood shield that we are unaware of.

If there are DR at play, it will be nice when we find the "magic number"... from that magic number we could start stacking more stam or avoidance again? Who knows.

Edited to correct a mistake.

Disargeria · 10/14/10, 1:17 PM

Originally Posted by Dillirium

i was dueling outside org just for the fun of it and to test stacking shields absorb ratio and i suddenly noticed that magic damage is being totaly overlooked by the shield.
tried with hunters doing arcane shot, warlocks basicly all spells and mage spells, the damage is totaly ignoring the shield which means the shield itself is only absorbing Physical damage / Melee damage (maybe bleeds as well didn't test that yet).

As I stated in my first post with a summation of Blood mechanics, the shield is only intended to absorb PHYSICAL damage. It is working as intended.

Last I checked, it even states this on the shield tooltip buff.

riggins · 10/14/10, 1:42 PM

Yup, didn't even notice yesterday that it was physical absorb only. Would be nice if it got changed to both magical and physical like the tooltip reads.

In the end, its not that big of a deal considering we have so many other cds to handle magic dmg and physical dmg intake is present on every boss fight.

Disargeria · 10/14/10, 2:51 PM

Originally Posted by riggins

Yup, didn't even notice yesterday that it was physical absorb only. Would be nice if it got changed to both magical and physical like the tooltip reads.

In the end, its not that big of a deal considering we have so many other cds to handle magic dmg and physical dmg intake is present on every boss fight.

It was implemented as a version of blocking for DKs. Blocking only works on physical damage, why would Blood Shield?

Also, I'd like to add as a warning, Sindragosa's Frost Breath impacts rune regen. It seems attack speed slows are also slowing down runes. Multiple stacks will prevent you from doing pretty much anything.

benelli3000 · 10/14/10, 3:34 PM

Originally Posted by Zerath

Snifs:
I have been running heroics all day and can successfully say DKs threat was buffed. I have no issues with mobs, even with geared DPS. Try this, example of two close packs:

Pack 1:
DnD -> IT -> PS -> Pest -> BB -> DS.
[Now, if a Frost and Unholy pop before a Death or Blood, use DS, if not -> BB.]
At this point you spam BB and DS.
*trash dies*

You should have 2-4 Death Runes ready. Run to the next pack, IT-PS->Pest->BBx2-4 times. They will stick to you at this. Mind you, DPS *needs* to give you the ability to spread diseases before they go all out. We're back to Vanilla days. If they attack immediately, warn them. If they do it again, kick them or let them die. BUT! The above system worked just fine for me all day (Heroics and Naxx so far.)

By the time you hit pack 3 you'll have DnD up again. I'm running through instances faster post patch which surprised me since I hated my DK this morning. =p

TPS:
I seem to be averaging roughly 8-9k TPS w/o RS on Single Target. Is anyone else getting the same numbers?

Priority System for me:

Diseases > DS -> HS [in a perfect world where RS worked for me, it would be my dump but currently, I'm having massive issues with it so DC is my dump.]

Several things I've noticed - of course, your mileage may vary:

Opening with a Blood Boil is fantastic on large pulls because of the instant threat bump it gives with the damage reduction, then the standard Blood trash opener of DnD-IT-PS-Pest-(BT)BB. This is working fantastically well for me, with geared and impatient dps types. It can buy you time. Blood Boil is now your Howling Blast in a half-assed sort of way. It is, of course, much weaker as the opener to use BB but it's a bit more of an "oh shit" thing when you can't tell your dps "ok guys wait, I need four GCD's ok here we go DnD, ok there's IT, I just PS'd, there's Pest, ok go nuts"...

Also - the damage and threat of Rune Strike is so far ahead of Death Coil for me that if there is a choice between the two, it's Rune Strike, all the way. I can't back this with any hard math but it feels far more threat-aggressive in this patch.

I miss my Rune Strike macros, but honestly what is one more button to push? My tears stem only from the fact that maybe it should become a standard strike that isn't proc-based so that we may drop the tepid and sorrowfully underwhelming Death Coil from our rotation, except as a situational ranged threat prop when strangulate and all the taunts are down.

Meagree · 10/14/10, 3:39 PM

Originally Posted by raivyne

The way I understood the talent is that it increases the 30% healed by 45%, which would mean Imp DS heals for 43.5% of the damage in the previous 5 seconds. You would need to know the the incoming damage from five seconds prior and the corresponding heal amount to see whether you're getting the Imp. DS effect.

Keep in mind that the heal will heal you for "at minimum 10% of your maximum health". Perhaps you were not taking enough damage in the 5 seconds before your DS to heal for more than the minimum amount?

No, what I mean is since it's a little harder to calculate whether the primary effect (30% of damage taken over 5 sec) is affected by the 45% heal from the talent, I tried hitting a dummy, which without the talent should heal for 10% of my health, while with the talent it should heal for 14.5%. It healed for 10%. My question was if it's not supposed to affect the minimum heal, or if it's a bug.

raivyne · 10/14/10, 4:01 PM

Originally Posted by Meagree

No, what I mean is since it's a little harder to calculate whether the primary effect (30% of damage taken over 5 sec) is affected by the 45% heal from the talent, I tried hitting a dummy, which without the talent should heal for 10% of my health, while with the talent it should heal for 14.5%. It healed for 10%. My question was if it's not supposed to affect the minimum heal, or if it's a bug.

You can't test the DS heal on a target dummy. With no incoming damage, you will always heal for the minimum amount of 10% max health. IOW the talent doesn't increase the tool tip amount healed (and if it did it would be +45% of 10% of your health, not a straight 45% increase), it increases based off of the damage taken. So, with no damage taken, you're still getting the minimum heal.

GravityDK · 10/14/10, 4:44 PM

I made some brief updates to OP.

I do not think we've conclusively worked out the Imp Death Strike / self-healing / barrier value behaviours yet, in terms of isolating what is a bug or bad tooltip, so have just referred to it as ongoing analysis.

Blood Parasites. I'll quote some findings from Satorri in the hope of getting some good discussion on them too.

Originally Posted by Satorri

Worms have almost exactly 24.1% of my max health, but that is not perfectly linear as I take pieces off to strip health. That proportion does stay roughly true in and out of Blood Pres, so it is likely based on Stamina even as it scales with presence.

Worms spawn and move smartly, they position behind and appear to have standard pet protection (or some other method of keeping their health up, they don't seem to die without individual attention.

Every time they hit, which currently appears to be a 1 sec swing timer, they get a stack. Every stack will heal anyone nearby for 10% of the worm's max health when it explodes. So far I have only seen it explode on its own, I'm not sure if it will do so when it dies, but I know it won't explode on a timer, it will just die with nothing to attack.

So, if the worm has 24% of my max health, and I've seen it stack to 6-7 stacks, it will heal up to 14.4-16.8% of *my* max health on everyone it hits. You'll notice that is rather better than healing for 15% of the target's health, since as a tank and a Blood tank at that, I will have a lot more health than most others, even with Clysm health. It may be able to stack higher, we'll also have to see if raid haste will buff the worms.

Lanlaorn · 10/14/10, 5:11 PM

Originally Posted by raivyne

You can't test the DS heal on a target dummy. With no incoming damage, you will always heal for the minimum amount of 10% max health. IOW the talent doesn't increase the tool tip amount healed (and if it did it would be +45% of 10% of your health, not a straight 45% increase), it increases based off of the damage taken. So, with no damage taken, you're still getting the minimum heal.

Why do you posit that the +45% healing not working on the 10% base healing is intentional? It doesn't logically follow and the only precedent we have is WotLK's DS healing for 10% base, 15% talented. IMO all signs point to it being a bug that should be reported.

Lichloathe · 10/14/10, 5:26 PM

Originally Posted by Drakkan

Did they implement the rune strike and rune regeneration yet? I saw a brief maintenance last night. I really want to see the new rune strike and how my RP plays out.

As I mentioned in my last post I was choosing GoIT over GoDS because I didn't feel our RP would be high enough to justify GoDS. As of right now I am basically at full RP all the time (and I didn't reforge parry/dodge to mastery) so GoDS makes a lot of sense. I wonder how this will play out after RS is fixed... does anyone think GoIT will win out?

I am looking forward to the quicker rune regeneration as I find myself just hanging out a lot doing nothing. Also, should increase the amount of DS we get increasing the value of mastery.

Obligatory plug for BloodSim. I've already updated it to include the 30 RP RS and 20% Rune Regen changes.

Lichloathe · 10/14/10, 5:32 PM

Originally Posted by raivyne

I went through the log pictures you posted, and did the shield ratio math manually. Here are the results:

Shield / Heal = % of heal (notes)

8,446.0000 / 10,194.0000 = 82.853%

8,446.0000 / 10,193.0000 = 82.861%

8,446.0000 / 10,194.0000 = 82.853%

10,367.0000 / 12,510.0000 = 82.870%

8,446.0000 / 10,194.0000 = 82.853%

8,446.0000 / 10,193.0000 = 82.861%

8,446.0000 / 14,271.0000 = 59.183% (VB up - shield appears to be applied before the VB effect, but VB effect more than 25% increase... maybe VB effect is applied after Imp DS talent?)

- / 10,194.0000 = - (No incoming damage for a long period of time, no blood shield fade message, but perhaps if it falls off there is no message?)

10,681.0000 / 12,890.0000 = 82.863%

8,446.0000 / 10,193.0000 = 82.861%

8,446.0000 / 14,271.0000 = 59.183% (VB up - see above numbers consistent)

8,446.0000 / 10,193.0000 = 82.861%

9,912.0000 / 11,962.0000 = 82.862%

11,009.0000 / 13,286.0000 = 82.862%

11,521.0000 / 13,903.0000 = 82.867%

11,009.0000 / 13,286.0000 = 82.862%

11,521.0000 / 13,903.0000 = 82.867%

The Blood Shield effect is consistently at 82.86% except for when VB is up, but that can be explained as VB applying to the heal only and not effecting the shield amount.

Perhaps there is a hard cap on our mastery of 82.86%? It would be interesting to see some numbers from you with less mastery (ideally at 82.86%).

82.86 x 1.3 (ICC buff) is almost exactly 1.07 - The amount of mastery he has. The more I look at it, the more I am certain that the only actual problem with the Mastery is that the Absorb is not scaling with any outside healing increasing effects, which I know is definitely true.

The way I understood the talent is that it increases the 30% healed by 45%, which would mean Imp DS heals for 43.5% of the damage in the previous 5 seconds. You would need to know the the incoming damage from five seconds prior and the corresponding heal amount to see whether you're getting the Imp. DS effect.

This is correct.

Meagree · 10/14/10, 5:56 PM

Originally Posted by raivyne

You can't test the DS heal on a target dummy. With no incoming damage, you will always heal for the minimum amount of 10% max health. IOW the talent doesn't increase the tool tip amount healed (and if it did it would be +45% of 10% of your health, not a straight 45% increase), it increases based off of the damage taken. So, with no damage taken, you're still getting the minimum heal.

My point was to ask whether the fact that the minimum heal not being affected by the talent was a bug or not.
The talent suggests that the minimum heal would be 14.5%. This does not happen. The minimum heal is still 10% of maximum health.

Anyone who knows if this is a confirmed bug, or intended?

Lichloathe · 10/14/10, 6:25 PM

Originally Posted by Meagree

My point was to ask whether the fact that the minimum heal not being affected by the talent was a bug or not.
The talent suggests that the minimum heal would be 14.5%. This does not happen. The minimum heal is still 10% of maximum health.

Anyone who knows if this is a confirmed bug, or intended?

As far as I'm aware, if it is a bug, it's not confirmed to be one.

riggins · 10/14/10, 6:32 PM

I'm pretty sure the majority of the conflicts on the Mastery/DS/Imp DS/Blood Armor come into play with the ICC buff being present. I will have a new set of numbers up tonight that are without it. This should help out quite a bit.

I'm also going to be putting a set of numbers up with Imp DS (3/3) and without (0/3). I'll edit it in this post in a few hours.

Edit***
Updated info: http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t105485-...6/#post1772282