Frost DPS | Cataclysm, Larger Than Life - Page 11

Kalarm · 10/22/10, 2:15 AM

Is there a definitive answer to the "DW VS 2H" topic?

I've been searching for some time, but I just can't seem to find the answer. My personal experience tend to show me that DW does higher DPS *I even have blue weapons, while my 2H spec has a ilvl 219 polearm*, but a lot of people say 2H does just as much DMG.

What must I do?

Valtiel · 10/22/10, 3:55 AM

Originally Posted by Kalarm

Is there a definitive answer to the "DW VS 2H" topic?

I've been searching for some time, but I just can't seem to find the answer. My personal experience tend to show me that DW does higher DPS *I even have blue weapons, while my 2H spec has a ilvl 219 polearm*, but a lot of people say 2H does just as much DMG.

What must I do?

It's way too early to give a definitive answer. If you read the OP, Consider links to a blog where he points at his simulations. The result is that right now DW is (slightly) superior.

An important factor to consider in comparing 2h Frost with DW Frost right now is that we're yet unsure if 2h Frost is "working as intended".

I admit coming from a 4 month break (except some betatesting) and I'm not even sure I'll play Cata, so take my evaluation with a pinch of salt, but the situation is that right now (as Consider's post outline) 2h Frost is meant to be played in UH presence and gemming your gear for Haste. It's entirely possible that this design is Blizzard's plan; I would consider it unlikely tho, for a number of reasons - starting with the userbase probably being less than enthusiastic about it, to the fact that this goes against the Cata design where stances and speccs are paired in usage, to the fact that Haste scaling, under the new Haste mechanics, has rather big odds of eventually becoming problematic in terms of how it interacts with our rotation. It's way too early to guesstimate how much haste rating we will have on endgame gear in Cata, but the way UHP and Haste works now, we may literally end up having a rotation that looks like HB PS OBx10 and if that happens, you can be sure Blizzard will change us yet again.

As far as my recent experience is (and once again, I've just picked up the game again), I've tested some last night with Frost 2h (nonheroic T10 + Shadowmourne) in some instances and on dummies.
I consider the instance results worthless - I was completely screwing around rotations and the impact of the new Howling Blast in 5 men makes any evaluation impossible, I was generally ending runs around 9k average dps with 40-42% dmg coming from HB. I sort of wonder how this will work in Cata instances if CC is effectively required - we will have to fall back on IT I guess.
Now, on dummy testing, I was mostly messing around with the single target rotation for bosses, however my observation was... in FP I don't feel GCD locked at all, tbh. I'm definitely close, but I still have time to use HoW. I'm probably still doing it wrong, but I was ending 5 min tests around 8.2-8.4k dps in FP on the boss dummy. I tried switching to UHP and I definitely felt a resource income increase (both in RP and runes) but the overall dps results were SENSIBLY lower (7.5-7.6k dps).

Now, I'm gemmed for Strength and not Haste, but looking at stat weights for Frost 2h, the difference doesn't seem THAT massive. I'm probably still doing things massively wrong, but intuitively in the new system screwing up should lead to missing abilities (at first I was skipping a lot of BS, for example), not to empty GCDs. I guess I can optimize the numbers, but I'm supposed to be GCD locked and I'm not. Anyone experiencing the same?

Khamael · 10/22/10, 7:04 AM

Hey guys!
First: apologies for my bad bad English! I'm from Germany, but I'll just do my very best.

Second: Last night in ICC, i felt like frost DK was nerfed quite a bit.
I did about 3k less singletarget DPS than last week, although everything was just as last week (no gear/skill changes, same FPS and latency, same buffs). Did anybody have similar experiences since the servers have been down for maintenance? Until then, everything felt quite smooth as a 2h frost DK, no RP or Runes to wait for, no downtimes. But yesterday i had lots and lots of downtimes, just standing there and waiting for Runes/RP almost every fight.

Third: with the priority changed from mastery>haste to haste>mastey as a 2h Frost, I wanted to ask weather there is some sort of softcap for haste. With all crit or haste reforged to mastery, I still have about 650 Haste. When i changed the priority to haste>mastery, it lowered my Dummy-DPS about 1.5k... is this just a matter of training or did I reach some sort of softcap?

Jhaze · 10/22/10, 10:21 AM

I did a lot of testing with kahorie's,but the best dps I had (icc buff 30 % + listed BiS):

Ability	Damage done				hits			Crits			Misses		Glances			TPS	Uptime
	Total	%	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	Avg	#	Avg	%	%
Obliterate	1249541816	18	68164	18331	33609	11924	49	34555	24564	50	740	1	0	0	0	7197	0
FrostStrike	1213259234	18	94934	12780	57112	8983	60	37822	18513	39	1008	1	0	0	0	6988	0
FrostStrike(OH)	905795901	13	95942	9441	34005	5619	35	61937	11540	65	0	0	0	0	0	5217	0
MainHand	797941465	12	227345	4990	48396	2455	17	111523	5052	40	53619	19	67426	1716	24	4596	0
Obliterate(OH)	788657789	11	68904	11446	33971	7439	49	34933	15342	51	0	0	0	0	0	4542	0
HowlingBlast	676964817	10	30432	22245	19693	16230	58	10739	33276	32	3469	10	0	0	0	3899	0
OffHand	499877911	7	227435	3122	48324	1538	17	111813	3160	40	53524	19	67298	1074	24	2879	0
FrostFever	300702641	4	119146	2524	77888	1850	65	41258	3797	35	0	0	0	0	0	1732	100
BloodPlague	167165683	2	115299	1450	75125	1060	65	40174	2178	35	0	0	0	0	0	963	97
BloodStrike	63413519	1	13456	4713	8183	3328	60	5273	6862	39	148	1	0	0	0	365	0
Ghoul	111137928	2	98944	1334	78294	1149	79	5017	2223	5	0	0	15633	643	16	0	0
PlagueStrike	50226788	1	13098	3835	7871	2691	59	5227	5557	40	145	1	0	0	0	289	0
BloodStrike(OH)	39946732	1	13604	2936	8302	2079	61	5302	4278	39	0	0	0	0	0	230	0
PlagueStrike(OH)	31518804	0	13243	2380	8020	1681	61	5223	3454	39	0	0	0	0	0	182	0
Army of the Dead	27811942	0	396472	70	356863	69	90	39609	80	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	0

DPS 19254(+/- 5401)
Total Damage 6931,59m
RunicPower Total runic power used: 3037888 (45327 wasted)
Threat Per Second 15289
Generated in 27,25 s
Template frost dw
Priority Frost
Presence Frost
Sigil
RuneEnchant
Pet Calculation True

What is wrong with that?
I see a lot of people simming for more then 21k in dw.

Afabar · 10/22/10, 10:50 AM

Check you consumable, trade skill, potion of speed (pre-pull and in fight), your latency (0), UA/BS usage.
And I've found this priority set up very efficient.

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<Priority>
  <FrostFever></FrostFever>
  <BloodPlague></BloodPlague>
  <Rime></Rime>
  <KMObliterate></KMObliterate>
  <FrostStrike></FrostStrike>
  <Obliterate></Obliterate>
  <BloodStrike></BloodStrike>
  <EmpowerRuneWeapon></EmpowerRuneWeapon>
</Priority>

Jhaze · 10/22/10, 11:24 AM

I'm sorry,I know that this is not the Kahorie's thread,but why your simulator sims always obliterate>frost strike while on live it's just the opposite (even without mastery in frost 2h).
And why,I have a +/- that big (6000 dps) on live logs.
I had this issue also on 3.3 simulator:live had always big +/- dps,while the downloaded version never had this issue.

And,another little one issue.
Engineering enchants now stacks with the normal enchants,but the sim works as in 3.3.3.

Yubble · 10/22/10, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Afabar

Check you consumable, trade skill, potion of speed (pre-pull and in fight), your latency (0), UA/BS usage.
And I've found this priority set up very efficient.

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<Priority>
  <FrostFever></FrostFever>
  <BloodPlague></BloodPlague>
  <Rime></Rime>
  <KMObliterate></KMObliterate>
  <FrostStrike></FrostStrike>
  <Obliterate></Obliterate>
  <BloodStrike></BloodStrike>
  <EmpowerRuneWeapon></EmpowerRuneWeapon>
</Priority>

I'm actually getting much higher dps (a few hundred dps or so) with the following priority:

<Priority>
  <FrostFever></FrostFever>
  <FrostStrikeMaxRp></FrostStrikeMaxRp>
  <Rime></Rime>
  <KMObliterate></KMObliterate>
  <KMFrostStrike></KMFrostStrike>
  <BloodPlague></BloodPlague>
  <Obliterate></Obliterate>
  <HowlingBlast></HowlingBlast>
  <BloodStrike></BloodStrike>
  <FrostStrike></FrostStrike>
  <EmpowerRuneWeapon></EmpowerRuneWeapon>
</Priority>

Basically... HB asap when Rime's up, don't over-cap RP, prioritize KM Oblit's over blood plague, and HB when you have lone frost runes/death runes and no OB in sight.

Jhaze · 10/22/10, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Yubble

Basically... HB asap when Rime's up, don't over-cap RP, prioritize KM Oblit's over blood plague, and HB when you have lone frost runes/death runes and no OB in sight.

That's exactly the point.
What does exactly means no "OB in sight"?
Is there any exact time when using HB with a lone F/D is a good option?
Let's suppose that I have a similar scenario (first scenario):
I have all runes on cooldown except for a single Frost Rune
B: X---------- | X----------
U: X---------- | X----------
F: XXXXXXXX | XXX---------
Ok I use this frost rune for an howling blast.

Second scenario:
B: XXXXX----- | X----------
U: XXXXX---- | X----------
F: XXXXXXXX | XXX-------

Is it worth now to use Howling Blast instead of waiting for OB?Then you will "waste" an unholy rune for a plague strike.
So,is OB now "in sight" or not?

Third scenario
B: XXXXX----- | X---------- + Killing Machine proc +60 RP
U: XXXXX---- | X----------
F: XXXXXXXX | XXX-------
Is it best to wait for a KMOB then bs+dump,or use a KMFS + Obliterate?

The priority list we are all talking about are pretty correct,but there is not an exact (and when I say exact,I mean mathematically correct) point when you can delay your KM consumption,choosing between a KMFS + normal OB or KMOB+normalFS.

While we generally agree that an "OB in sight means" the current or the next GCD,both live play and sims tell us that there is a tiny difference between delaying or not KM usage for OB instead of Frost Strike (if delaying means no more then a GCD).
That's actually true for DW but not for 2H.
Being RE such random for frost death knights is our biggest problem evaluating a correct frost priority.
Actual frost death knight is by far the most tricky and RNG affected dps spec ever seen in the game,and I personally think that blizzard will change this for cataclysm (sorry for this last off topic consideration).

Smaug · 10/23/10, 11:17 PM

Moderator edit: The following analysis is a response to a hand-holding request. While repetitive, it's still useful, so I'm not deleting it. Bear in mind that this is basic stuff though.

As far as I understand it, the 8% hit cap is for all our physical special attacks. The ones that deal "yellow" damage, which should be most of our dps (OB, FS, BS, PS). The only things that benefit from more than 8% hit are HB (which requires 17%) and Auto Attacks which require 27%. HB is a negligible part of our single target damage. Auto Attacks provide around 20-25% of total damage I think (might be a bit off here, but doesnt matter). So after 8% hit, the stat provides very little benefit to a DW frost DK (just some small auto attack dmg boost). Not none, but the other stats are clearly superior.

What you probably have been reading about is the 27% hit for DW Warriors. Its a different story there as the hit not only boosts their auto attack damage but it is the main source of rage generation. The more white hits they get in, the more rage they get and thus the more special abilites they can cast -> making hit superior to all other stats (except expertise) for fury warriors.

Also do note that DW DKs have 3% hit from talents. So as soon as you have 5% hit from gear, reforge all excess hit to mastery. You need around 150 hit rating to reach 5% hit.

Now I have a question. Looking at how they changed the stats of PvP Weapons, how they made agi useless and how the 1H Weapons in ICC all have agi on them... how good are the ilvl 264, 2.6 speed, one Hand Arena weapons (which you can get for honor now)? To me they look superior to every single weapon except the ones that drop from LK25, since they have actual AP, a Socket, same DPS and no useles agi.

irishelf426 · 10/23/10, 11:27 PM

Originally Posted by Smaug

Now I have a question. Looking at how they changed the stats of PvP Weapons, how they made agi useless and how the 1H Weapons in ICC all have agi on them... how good are the ilvl 264, 2.6 speed, one Hand Arena weapons (which you can get for honor now)?
To me they look superior to every single weapon except the ones that drop from LK25, since they have actual AP, a Socket, same DPS and no useles agi.
Any thoughts on that?

You also have to consider the damage the weapons do as well as the actual damage interval. I personally am not going for the 264 pvp weapons because i have havoc's call 271 and bloodvenom blade 277 and I am mostly using them in PVP as well strictly because the damage output is greater. The actual attack power on the pvp weapons is decent however if you do not have other 264 weapons, 2.60 speed, that do more damage.

Mynou · 10/24/10, 1:34 PM

Originally Posted by Jhaze

I did a lot of testing with kahorie's,but the best dps I had (icc buff 30 % + listed BiS):

What is wrong with that?
I see a lot of people simming for more then 21k in dw.

Ability	Damage done				hits			Crits			Misses		Glances			TPS	Uptime
	Total	%	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	Avg	#	Avg	%	%
Obliterate	1481701874	19	69264	21392	19969	12271	29	49295	25087	71	0	0	0	0	0	8534	0
FrostStrike	1333342886	17	101627	13120	58696	9048	58	42931	18688	42	0	0	0	0	0	7680	0
Obliterate(OH)	925285349	12	69264	13359	19800	7640	29	49464	15648	71	0	0	0	0	0	5329	0
FrostStrike(OH)	887093060	11	101627	8729	49371	5630	49	52256	11656	51	0	0	0	0	0	5109	0
MainHand	853301904	11	230347	5258	41854	2525	15	120432	5207	42	53284	19	68061	1771	24	4915	0
HowlingBlast	735688144	10	31809	23128	19217	16164	54	12592	33758	35	3843	11	0	0	0	4237	0
OffHand	532040153	7	229986	3283	41810	1578	15	120236	3253	42	53319	19	67940	1104	24	3064	0
FrostFever	307444461	4	117983	2606	73964	1865	63	44019	3851	37	0	0	0	0	0	1771	100
BloodPlague	174115020	2	116733	1492	72114	1068	62	44619	2176	38	0	0	0	0	0	1003	98
BloodStrike	116143691	2	23400	4963	13370	3426	57	10030	7013	43	0	0	0	0	0	669	0
Ghoul	192543419	2	158981	1441	125704	1241	79	7902	2395	5	0	0	25375	693	16	0	0
BloodStrike(OH)	72501927	1	23400	3098	13356	2134	57	10044	4381	43	0	0	0	0	0	418	0
Army of the Dead	67047627	1	808436	83	726887	82	90	81549	93	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
PlagueStrike	52852882	1	13425	3937	7677	2713	57	5748	5571	43	0	0	0	0	0	304	0
PlagueStrike(OH)	32824925	0	13425	2445	7684	1688	57	5741	3458	43	0	0	0	0	0	189	0

DPS 21589(+/- 7030)
Total Damage 7771,9m
RunicPower Total runic power used: 3252064 (10120 wasted)
Threat Per Second 16979
Generated in 29,47 s
Template 3312tzwtwa
Priority Frost
Presence Frost
Sigil
RuneEnchant
Pet Calculation True

With my own gear and

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<Priority>
<FrostFever></FrostFever>
<BloodPlague></BloodPlague>
<FrostStrikeMaxRp></FrostStrikeMaxRp>
<Rime></Rime>
<KMObliterate></KMObliterate>
<BloodStrike></BloodStrike>
<FrostStrike></FrostStrike>
<Obliterate></Obliterate>
<EmpowerRuneWeapon></EmpowerRuneWeapon>
</Priority>

as Priority.

But my simmed Stat weights are somewhat different (17% Haste rest Crit Gear) ->

EP AttackPower 1 (1,54 DPS/per AP)
EP Strength 2,95
EP Agility 1,10
EP CritRating 1,77
EP MasteryRating 2,45
EP HasteRating 1,51
EP ExpertiseRating 2,85
Personal Expertise value 0
Before Melee Hit Cap 3,14
EP SpellHitRating 1,59
EP WeaponDPS 6,56
EP WeaponSpeed 493,51
EP AfterSpellHitRating 1,34

Anyone got ep results near mine?

Jhaze · 10/24/10, 8:00 PM

Has anyone else noticed low frost dps on beta?
I made a premade frost deathknight and I tried on ebon hold's heroic training dummy (i have obviously the right spec,priority,gemming and enchanting) a dps rush to 4kk of damage.
DPS was around 13k.
I'm a bit disappointed cause in wotlk's BiS it's quite easy to have more then 11k as frost death knight on the same dummy.

Mynou · 10/24/10, 9:59 PM

Originally Posted by Jhaze

Has anyone else noticed low frost dps on beta?
I made a premade frost deathknight and I tried on ebon hold's heroic training dummy (i have obviously the right spec,priority,gemming and enchanting) a dps rush to 4kk of damage.
DPS was around 13k.
I'm a bit disappointed cause in wotlk's BiS it's quite easy to have more then 11k as frost death knight on the same dummy.

Not at all :O

3 Dschinns
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Chimaeron
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Maloriak
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Halfus
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Meygaera · 10/25/10, 8:55 AM

@ Mynou

Although I only simmed around 17000 dps wih my 264 ilvl DW gear, I think my EP values were pretty similar.

EP AttackPower 1 (1.4 DPS/per AP)
EP Strength 2.86
EP Agility 1.07
EP CritRating 1.71
EP MasteryRating 2.26
EP HasteRating 1.44
EP ExpertiseRating 2.20
Personal Expertise value 0.57
Before Melee Hit Cap 2.45
EP SpellHitRating 1.33
EP WeaponDPS 6.5
EP WeaponSpeed 385.71
EP AfterSpellHitRating 0.83

What I didn't understand was why it was saying crit is higher than haste. With this setup I had 1071 crit rating and 549 haste. But every time I swapped a 10 str/10 haste for a 10 str/ 10 crit I would lose dps. Your expertise and hit values are a lot higher but that's probably because you simmed with better gear and missing would hurt your dps more.

Consider · 10/25/10, 10:49 AM

I would advise not having the ICC aura on when running stat weights. At best, it accomplishes nothing. At worst, it causes some weights to shift in funny manner. If nothing else, it's guaranteed to mess with that DPS/per AP number.

Aside from that, and aside from crit/haste, the weights seem perfectly in line with what they should be and what I have. There's various reasons for why it might show crit above haste but, when actually regemming, haste still wins - without getting too much into it, I would simply refer you to this graph. Note that the slope of the line is the stat weight, not simply where the line is. It was done in BiS, but the trend likely holds at lower gear points; there are points where haste "stair steps" - plateaus, rises, plateaus, rises. Overall though, haste has the lead until around 800 rating.