We've all seen a lot of talk about prioritizing rune attacks (unless you're RP capped) over Frost Strike. The logic in the theory is sound, and definitely makes sense, but has anyone put this into practice yet? Is there a point where a certain amount of mastery would revert back to prioritizing KM over OB/Death Rune creation?

He's wording it poorly but I think hes trying to say at a certain mastery level if we would ever prioritize KM/FS over KM/Oblit.

Looking at parses I'm seeing my average Obliterate crit doing 3-4k more then my average frost strike crit. Looking ahead to combat ratings at 85, I'm doubting we will get this high in mastery for a while, but if we do start prioritizing KM/FS over KM/Oblit it could be with with T13 or T14.

Either way, we won't have to start worrying about those numbers for a long time yet.

If that's the case it would still probably be better to Oblit if you have no fully depleted runes in order to not waste any RE procs.

Okay, this is driving me crazy.

My HB hits for more on targets with FF. I'm fairly sure (i.e. I've been checking talents, spell book, masteries, everything for the last 30 min) they removed all talents which increase damage when you have FF on target. But my HB always hits for around 12-15% more on a target with FF on it. It only affects FF, BP doesn't change anything.

I'm absolutely sure it isn't any other random outside factor. I'm in Ebon Hold, alone, I don't melee the target (no razorice), I have no trinkets equipped, no weapon with RotFC, no ICC rep ring, dummy is constantly at 100% hp (heroic one, not a 1hp). Just for the sake of it, I checked if it's the same naked - and yes it is, the same % difference too (so it isn't tied to mastery, which I have way more than 15% anyway). All of this applies to IT and FS too.

So either I'm a total idiot and misread a tooltip 3 times, or there is a increase with FF but it isn't documented anywhere. It doesn't bother me much that our damage is increased with FF on target, it kind of makes sense that way, but there is no talent or skill or mastery or glyph that documents it. It's just there.

Blood Fury now increases attack power by 1170 at level 85. Up from 342.

Finally had its scaling fixed, but how does this effect the best horde race list? Does this bump Orcs back to the top above Goblin, or do Goblin's still hold the top spot for frost. I would imagine that at the very least it brings orcs up to the same level, or very competitive with Goblin. Meaning that overall Orc are the best dps race for DK's again. If we bounce between specs at all throughout this expac as they alternate between 2-5% dps differences through the tiers. Well Orc would be the best choice to alternate between Unholy and Frost, even if Orc is not the outright winner on the frost side, it is so far ahead on the unholy side that it should tip ahead as the best horde DK race for dps switching.

Oh wow, yes I was wording it poorly. I did mean prioritizing FS over OB/Death Rune creation. Not sure why I thought KM, but thanks for the help.

First of all, you've done an amazing job here! Cudos! There's just one thing I'm curious about, and that is:

Gloves Enchant: ...If you're over the hit cap and you can't reforge to haste or mastery in its place, then use 15 Str.

Why the +15 strenght glove enchant and not the +44 AP one? When I do the numbers (considering Brittle Bones and even MotW/BoK), I end up with the +15 strenght enchant beeing a slight dps loss as you loose around 12 AP.

Like I said, I'm curious, I'm not picking on your blog. If I've gotten it wrong, please enlighten me

I have been wondering, why does DW have such a large lead (10%) over 2h? Please feel free to correct these guesstimates:
>>2 weapons deal better white dmg, which gives it maybe 2% (??)
>>DW can use a 2nd enchant (RI) which gives a 10% dmg inc to about 50% (??) of our dmg, meaning its a 5% increase, plus 2% white dmg for that single weapon
So that gives DW about a 8-9% advantage, but 2h should make some sort of a comeback with UP (or else, why would it be used)

FP (1.5 sec GCD, +15% dmg) vs UP (1 sec GCD); if all the GCDs are filled, the theoretical gain is 30% (6/4.6) (though in practice it will be much less, since not every GCD will be filled and not everything you add in has the same dps value). You also have to subtract the loss of +10%RP (whose value I don't know) and the loss of 5% white dmg, but there is a slight benefit to having the runspeed (fight dependent) as well as the benefit of faster rune regen, and more KM and MotFW procs from the extra haste in UP. In the end though, UP has to be at least a few % better, which should bring them much closer than a 10% gap, something around 5%. So why the large gap?

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In a related subject, on the issue of GCDs, presences, and haste "caps", are we taking into account different "rotations"? I.E. obviously the first thing that is dropped is HoW, which is commonly set up in the sim, but are other things (specifically blood runes) set up as "optional" or "use when there is nothing else to do"? I'd hope the priority system that's on the sim does this, no? But still, the sim isn't going to try different haste levels and presences for you.


IF you are have the resources to fill all your GCDs, then from highest to lowest DPS:
1) Diseases, Obl, FS
2) Diseases, Obl, FS, Rimed HB
3) Diseases, Obl, FS, Rimed HB, BS-BT-Obl trick every 30s
4) Diseases, Obl, FS, Rimed HB, BS-BT-Obl trick every 30s, 1 blood rune kept on CD
5) Diseases, Obl, FS, Rimed HB, BS-BT-Obl trick every 30s, 2 blood runes kept on CD

>>EDIT<< so PoF needs to be added in there to all of them, but that adds a lot of options w/ blood rune/BT usage, so I'm not going to bother right now. The point is to slowly prune your GCDs to the most damaging

So the darn tier 11 set bonus makes it less attractive, but can't you start dropping out BS? Consider mentions DW frost being GCD capped and not valuing haste highly, but what about lowering blood rune usage to free up GCDs and therefore increasing the value of haste? Maybe such things aren't feasible in tier 11, but later down the road with better gear and the ability to fill more GCDs, what about things like:
DW frost in UP
DW frost in FP w/ decreased B usage
2h frost in UP w/ decreased B usage
2h in FP w/ decreased B usage

I just feel like there are a lot of ways to balance GCDs through presences/haste/rotations and I wonder if they are all being considered. Once Cata is out and I have a character geared for raids, I'll load her up in the sim and look at things, but with my minimal sim experience, perhaps others would be better suited.

You are way oversimplifying matters. You're ignoring Threat of Thassarian and Might of the Frozen Wastes, which are not equal dps increases for their respective builds. You're ignoring the hit of Nerves of Cold Steel. You're underestimating the difference in white damage; it's more than 2% dps overall. Your Frost Presence verse Unholy Presence argument doesn't quite make sense; you're assuming that FP is inherently equal for 2H as it is for DW, and thus switching to UP is pure upside - not how it is.

It's very complicated to cover all the various factors and math, but easily shown in any simulator or spreadsheet. The gain lead DW gains in auto-attack damage, Obliterate damage, disease damage, frost damage, and a lower hit requirement outweigh all that 2H has on DW; its higher Frost Strike damage.

As to haste and all that, yes, it's accounted for if you're using the sim properly. Once you're GCD capped, haste is of lesser value. Yes, the rune regen aspect of it doesn't go to waste because you just replace your weaker abilities (BS) with your stronger (Oblit), but it's still not as good as replacing nothing with your strong ability!

I'm skeptical DW in UP will ever happen. Although, yes, things obviously change from 80 to 85, it's unlikely that we'll ever have as much haste in Cataclysm as we have now at the end of Wrath, and even now, DW in UP doesn't quite cut it.

2H in FP isn't likely at all, even if you could do nothing but Oblit and FS; at such haste points, the lower GCD of UP would just be priceless.

Does anybody else notice our Frost Strike is hitting for 2-5k less then last night?

Thanks for the Level 85 update. As I put together my own BIS list before you updated your thread, I found different weapons for DW Pre-Raid BIS:

Cookie's Tenderizer (can't use the wowhead tag as it'll be showing the one from regular DM)

While having nearly the same stats as the two weapons you mentioned, it's the only weapon with a speed of 2.8 if Wowhead data is correct. So this should be your best choice. And imagining my Goblin DK DWing two of those things while wearing my [Chef's Hat] always makes me smile...