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10/08/10, 2:29 AM
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#31
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Death Knight
Uther
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Originally Posted by Darkside
If you note the 4.0 stat weights, you'll actually be gemming strength+mastery over str+crit for 2h and DW.
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True, but in the patch, there won't be any skillful cuts available. And with some suggesting UH>Frost pres, would using str/haste be more beneficial for dw over str/crit?
Last edited by Shyle : 10/08/10 at 2:34 AM.
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10/08/10, 7:02 AM
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#32
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Piston Honda
Worgen Death Knight
Earthen Ring (EU)
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I think ultimately you just have to use your head about the Unholy rune especially, I don't think there is a good rule of thumb beyond the one you wrote as well as the stated priority in the OP. I suppose that in AoE scenarios it has slightly clearer use given Death & Decay, but on the other hand you might easily be in CD anyway.
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10/08/10, 11:19 AM
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#33
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
Kroot
Orc Death Knight
No WoW Account
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Originally Posted by Shyle
True, but in the patch, there won't be any skillful cuts available. And with some suggesting UH>Frost pres, would using str/haste be more beneficial for dw over str/crit?
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Honestly at this stage in the game it flat-out doesn't matter. AT MOST you'd see something like a 20-50 DPS swing (much less than the std. dev. of your DPS) from switching from str+crit to str+haste or vice versa. Pick whatever you have available to you and be ready to swap them over to mastery at 85.
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Originally Posted by Silmeria
See this is how engineers argue! Why the fuck we gotta have 17 page threads on how much Diablo 3 sucks I blame liberal arts majors
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10/08/10, 12:47 PM
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#34
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Glass Joe
Orc Death Knight
Kalecgos
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Great guide so far.
One question I have that I didn't see in the OP is regarding 2hand Weapon Speed. Any idea if a slow or fast 2hand will produce more DPS?
Following this guide on the PTR and using Bryntroll as my 2hander my swing speed is at roughly 2.0.
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10/08/10, 1:46 PM
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#35
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Von Kaiser
Human Death Knight
Zuluhed (EU)
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Originally Posted by Darkside
Honestly at this stage in the game it flat-out doesn't matter. AT MOST you'd see something like a 20-50 DPS swing (much less than the std. dev. of your DPS) from switching from str+crit to str+haste or vice versa. Pick whatever you have available to you and be ready to swap them over to mastery at 85.
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With mastery being yellow, we will get big problems with our meta socket. It's really annoying like that. I hope something is going to happen about that. In Highendgear, we will surely again be forced to downgrade our hit, so always socketing hit sounds not too nice for me. Would be a good reason to play 2H.
The only other meta, that could be potentially another choice, is the one with Mastery and Runspeed. It's gem requirement would be trivial for DW frost and we could pretty much get about 69 Mastery + a lot more mastery sockets. I think it might be a choice with better gear.
Or what do oyu think? I mean, we would be forced to always socket mastery hit and one time hit/strength. or hit/expertise.
But to be honest, it's really difficult to tell how reforging will work out.
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10/08/10, 2:24 PM
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#36
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
Kroot
Orc Death Knight
No WoW Account
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As Consider outlined in his OP, it's really not that big of a problem. We simply have to reforge all the hit off the gear into mastery and gem it instead. This will result in the exact same stat distribution, just with hit being in gems and mastery being on gear, instead of the other way around.
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Originally Posted by Silmeria
See this is how engineers argue! Why the fuck we gotta have 17 page threads on how much Diablo 3 sucks I blame liberal arts majors
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10/08/10, 7:05 PM
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#37
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Death Knight
Antonidas
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Edit: Problem in the OP was fixed, removing so as not to create any confusion for anyone reading through the thread.
Last edited by paranoidkiwie : 10/09/10 at 5:09 AM.
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10/09/10, 9:22 AM
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#38
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Glass Joe
Human Death Knight
Mug'thol (EU)
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What is the reason for mastery being so good for unholy presence-2h frost? 90 mastery would give us 1% frost damage which is only ~50% of our damage while 128 haste gives us 1% haste which should affect everything but diseases or 90%+ of our damage. I know this is very basic math and i am probably overseeing something obvious.
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10/09/10, 11:54 AM
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#39
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
Kroot
Orc Death Knight
No WoW Account
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Originally Posted by Nifty01
What is the reason for mastery being so good for unholy presence-2h frost? 90 mastery would give us 1% frost damage which is only ~50% of our damage while 128 haste gives us 1% haste which should affect everything but diseases or 90%+ of our damage. I know this is very basic math and i am probably overseeing something obvious.
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This is a good point, especially considering the weird positive feedback loop of AA/Runes -> Frost Strike -> Runes etc. As the ratings currently stand, it looks like we'd need ~70% of our damage to be frost in order for Mastery to pull ahead, assuming that 1% haste does equal 1% damage (which I don't *think* is a bad assumption, someone correct me if I'm wrong). Additionally, according to the ratings thread, we get 30% more melee haste from rating than the other classes, which should further boost its effectiveness.
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Originally Posted by Silmeria
See this is how engineers argue! Why the fuck we gotta have 17 page threads on how much Diablo 3 sucks I blame liberal arts majors
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10/09/10, 12:25 PM
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#40
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King Hippo
Draenei Death Knight
Dragonblight
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While Mastery really is as simple as you make it out to be, Haste isn't, largely because of the softcap. Yes, it may affect ~90% of our damage but not from 0 to infinity rating, and not for 100% of the fight. Mastery, on the other hand, may only affect 50% of our damage but it does so equally from 0 to infinity and without any pause or exception.
What the soft-cap is, exactly, is still something which needs to be determined (I haven't yet figured out the best way to go about it), but even without knowing it exactly, we do know some:
First, that the rune regeneration aspect of Haste is worthless (or, at best, only marginally noticeable) under the affects of Bloodthirst/Heroism/Time Warp. Whatever the cap may be, it's definitely under 30%. Heroism (et al) last for 40 seconds, which is ~13% uptime on your average 5 minute fight (and much, much higher on the current ICC fights!) - that alone causes haste to take a pretty decent hit in worth.
Secondly, there's speed pots, which similarly cause haste to greatly devalue for their duration. When you consider that you prepot one and use another mid-combat, that's a solid ~20 seconds where all you're getting from your haste is attack speed. That's another ~7% of your normal fight length.
Those two facts alone, using rough napkin math, would place the two stats equal to each other: 0.5/90 verse (0.8*0.9)/128. The hits just keep going for haste, however.
Then there's the fact that after hit/expertise, haste is still our second best secondary stat which means that even if we don't go out of our way to stack it, we're still inevitably going to have a sizable amount considering our most optimal itemization (in a vaccuum) would be mastery/haste (and, currently, crit to haste with the crit all reforged to mastery).
There's dozens of other factors, too. Troll racial, engineering enchant, herbalism cooldown, trinket procs, so on and so forth. Ultimately it all just goes back to the soft-cap (which I know enough to say isn't very high and a point we can currently reach with relative ease, it's not worth then stacking additional haste).
At 85, I don't see things looking that differently with the conversion ratios being as low as they currently are. They really need to be jacked up, doubled or ideally tripled, but that's another topic entirely.
Also, it's worth noting that the combat ratings thread is mistaken. We no longer get 30% more attack speed from haste than other classes, not on beta at 85. 128 rating is 1% rune regen and 1% attack speed, for us or anyone else.
Last edited by Consider : 10/09/10 at 12:32 PM.
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10/10/10, 4:02 AM
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#41
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Von Kaiser
Human Death Knight
Zuluhed (EU)
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Originally Posted by Consider
Secondly, there's speed pots, which similarly cause haste to greatly devalue for their duration. When you consider that you prepot one and use another mid-combat, that's a solid ~20 seconds where all you're getting from your haste is attack speed. That's another ~7% of your normal fight length.
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At least they will be gone with 85. They will be replaced with Strength Potions and therefore wont be quite that likely to be capped like at lvl 80.
Ir's really odd,t hat we are really more GCD capped as ever before, though changing the mechanics to prevent that. At least, the reimplemented 1.0 sec GCD makes UH playable to a certain degree.
One question though: Does Heroism/BL/TW now give full benefit like haste rating does? So with a faster rune regenration?
Last edited by Sahlia : 10/10/10 at 4:48 AM.
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10/10/10, 7:56 AM
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#42
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Glass Joe
Worgen Druid
Alleria (EU)
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Originally Posted by Consider
Two Hand
Hit to cap >= Expertise to cap > Mastery > Strength > Haste > Crit > Agility > Hit to spell cap
Two Hand
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First of all, sorry my english is not very well.
I read this post an i wondered, because of the gemming for the BiS is str/crit and not str/haste like in the stat weights was written. is this a oversight or does it really makes sense?
the 2nd question is, why don't we take the BiS of the 3.3.5 unholy (all items + forced expertise cap)and reforge all crit to mastery, because with the actual BiS we only have 193 hit and 196 expertiserating (~23 expertise).
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10/10/10, 10:17 AM
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#43
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by ElderFuthark
There is a new bug (on the PTR) where if you consume both death runes at the same time (on an Oblit), both resultant blood runes recharge at the same time. Not sequentially! This saves another 10 seconds of recharge time. BS->BT->Oblit gets you to this state.
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After further testing, I am sorry to report that the above benefit does not exist. While consuming two death runes with an Oblit will appear to cause two blood runes to be charging simultaneously, the cooldown on one of the runes is just an illusion. A flaw of the cooldown functions that the UI calls. As soon as any rune ability is used afterward, the graphics for the erred rune will instantly correct itself to whenever it really is internally.
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10/10/10, 11:26 AM
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#44
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
Kroot
Orc Death Knight
No WoW Account
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Originally Posted by Consider
Multiple Target
The AoE rotation is actually quite different than the single target one:
HB if both Frost runes and/or both Death runes are up, or if KM is procced >
DnD/PS if both Unholy Runes are up > FS > HB > BS > DnD/PS HoW.
First off, Frost Presence is mandatory whenever adds are present, whether you be dual-wielding or using a two-hander. No exceptions.
There’s no need to specify applying diseases: you’ll constantly apply them with glyphed Howling Blast (which is your hardest hitting ability, of course) and PS (which you’re going to be tab “spamming” due to the fact that HB leaves you with leftover Unholy runes anyways). Using Pestilence just isn’t worth it when you consider all of that, on top of the whole 50% penalty going on. You’ll still prioritize DnD over PS whenever it’s off cooldown, of course, but that’s a given.
Following that, you still want to Blood Strike with your runes, not Blood Boil – the reason being BS converts to Death runes, while BB does not. Since a BS + HB > 2x BB, simple decision.
Then, of course, comes the dumping into Frost Strike, followed by using runes on HB/BS/PS/DnD as appropriate. Nothing fancy.
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It's worth noting that KM no longer affects HB (at least as it is currently shown on wowhead and MMOC). Additionally, it seems like there should be some sort of target cap for when Pest becomes viable. Obviously for 2-3 targets tabbing through with PS will do more damage, but on a fight like Anub or Freya or BQL Pest'ing diseases out to 4-5 targets would probably be a gain over a single Blood Strike (unless disease damage has been nerfed something fierce and nobody told me).
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Originally Posted by Silmeria
See this is how engineers argue! Why the fuck we gotta have 17 page threads on how much Diablo 3 sucks I blame liberal arts majors
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10/10/10, 2:06 PM
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#45
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Von Kaiser
Tauren Paladin
Wyrmrest Accord
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I can confirm on Beta that KM does not affect HB.
I can also confirm that I have terrible luck, and went a full 33 second without getting a single Rime proc and had to refresh my FF manually. How embarassing.
Anyway, the thing about Pestilence is that even if you spread diseases with pestilence, you're still going to be spamming Plague Strike to use up those extra Unholy runes while DnD is on cooldown. I don't think there's a specific target cap, but the use of Pestilence will be based on number of targets *and* health they have left e.g. on low health mobs it might be worth it because you wouldn't have had time to Plague Strike them all.
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