Blood | DK endgame tanking [4.x] - Page 22

dmahan13 · 01/29/11, 12:42 AM

Quick question on the data, what trinkets did the mastery set use?

If it was stamina, the results would be skewed towards avoidance, considering the 570 additional rating the avoidance gear would have obtained

Lichloathe · 01/29/11, 2:19 AM

Originally Posted by dmahan13

Quick question on the data, what trinkets did the mastery set use?

If it was stamina, the results would be skewed towards avoidance, considering the 570 additional rating the avoidance gear would have obtained

The Mastery set was based on using an Impetuos Query and one Stamina trinket.

Weidekuh · 01/29/11, 4:05 AM

Even if avoidance theoretically is slightly better i'm still not convinced, that it's also better in real fights. You can time your shields, but you can't time your avoidance. the downside of mastery is, that it's completely dependant on you hitting things. Sometimes you have to stop swinging. This is bad for all DK-tanks but moreso for mastery stacked ones.

Crushl · 01/29/11, 8:49 AM

Originally Posted by Weidekuh

You can time your shields, but you can't time your avoidance.

That's true, but it's not like you wouldn't have Deathstrikes as an avoid DK (my bloodshield is on about 90-100% and i reforged in parry/dodge completly). The strongest part about the avoid is imo that you theoretically have more time in between 2 hits you receive. As a result you should be able to heal yourself right after a hit (+ shield for the next) more often because you don't need to spamm Deathstrike like the pure Mastery DKs have to (they just get hit so often that they can use their DS on rune cooldown). Plus some Boss Skills just trigger their effects on hit (like MS of Halfus Wyrmbreaker).

Avoid numbers are not that high yet, but what i see on Mastery DKs is about 10 - 11% of parry and dodge each + 5% miss, resulting in about 25% avoid. My DK has about 15% dodge and 20% parry (Swordshattering enchanted) + 5% miss, so i got 40% avoid.

I really can't imagine how +40% Bloodshields could beat those 10-15% avoid difference.

Ayreal · 01/29/11, 9:24 AM

Originally Posted by Crushl

Avoid numbers are not that high yet, but what i see on Mastery DKs is about 10 - 11% of parry and dodge each + 5% miss, resulting in about 25% avoid. My DK has about 15% dodge and 20% parry (Swordshattering enchanted) + 5% miss, so i got 40% avoid.

I really can't imagine how +40% Bloodshields could beat those 10-15% avoid difference.

I could be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure that there's a pretty big "gap" between your estimated numbers, and what they actually are (or could be). Just glancing at your armory (avoidance) and mine (mastery), we're wearing roughly the same level of gear, and your build only has 3% more avoidance, whereas mine has nearly a 60% larger blood shield. Granted, you have some more health than I do, which is mostly a result of you wearing 2 stamina trinkets, but I could easily put my 2 stamina trinkets on, thus putting me within 1k hp of yours, and still have my blood shields be about 45% larger than yours, while only 3% behind on avoidance. So as I said, I think your estimations were a bit misleading. I could easily be wrong though.

Crushl · 01/29/11, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Ayreal

I could be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure that there's a pretty big "gap" between your estimated numbers, and what they actually are (or could be). Just glancing at your armory (avoidance) and mine (mastery), we're wearing roughly the same level of gear, and your build only has 3% more avoidance, whereas mine has nearly a 60% larger blood shield. Granted, you have some more health than I do, which is mostly a result of you wearing 2 stamina trinkets, but I could easily put my 2 stamina trinkets on, thus putting me within 1k hp of yours, and still have my blood shields be about 45% larger than yours, while only 3% behind on avoidance. So as I said, I think your estimations were a bit misleading. I could easily be wrong though.

I guess that Swordshattering enchant is missing in my armory stats (can't check it right now). Taking the 3% difference, adding 4% Swordshattering and 2 avoidtrinkets (1,5% each) it should be about 10-11% difference again.

Please correct me if I'm wrong about anything here (Swordshattering maybe already in? Didn't Check armory)

Edit: Ok, i indeed was wrong. Can't figure out where all my stats are going, but I'll have a look into it after work (my guess is: too much stamina focus).

Thx for your correction

Originally Posted by kc0716

So, for people who are farming Nef, how are you guys gearing? Avoidance or Mastery?

Myself, we're attempting Nef and I'm tanking Onyxia but I take a loooot of damage. It was 10man.

In case Armory is bugged or not working, unbuffed stats with blood presence:
166k HP
30k Armor (with SSG)
12% dodge
12.4% parry
16.5 Mastery
2.6% Hit
26 Expertise.

I'm tanking her with avoid focus. The only hard hit for me is her breath which i try to Shell as much as i can at start (using it for Nefs AoE later).

Originally Posted by kc0716

Also, I was getting so much aggro from the adds just due to my DS healing. Kiters were having tough time because all the adds would go straight to me instead of the healers. It was kind of weird that my self-healing was out-threating the healers. Anyone have this experience?

We had that problem too. Our Holy paladin started to use his agro buff but i still could get those adds easily on me. What we did was: I just stoped healing myself. I told my healer to keep me at 100% so i could use deathstrike for shielding myself without healing and agroing the adds (I'm not sure about agro generation of shields, i just can say that i didn't pull agro of the adds with just the shield).
Worked out pretty well, i just had to use AMS for the first Breath she did to avoid the massive damage. When the adds were pulled together and started being CCed, i could use my DS again for healing. You have just to try that a bit and you'll find out when healing is ok and when it's not x)

Azraen · 01/31/11, 6:28 AM

Originally Posted by Crushl

Edit: Ok, i indeed was wrong. Can't figure out where all my stats are going, but I'll have a look into it after work (my guess is: too much stamina focus).

I checked both of you on armory, and if I do some simple math of adding mastery+dodge+parry rating Killstrike has 5715 and Vargoth has 5438. This difference is already achieved by the mastery trinket, it's not really a huge difference. However, 277 mastery rating already gives 9,66% bigger shield.

Rating - percentage (I'm rounding while typing or else it looks so messy):
177 dodge rating = 1% dodge
177 parry rating = 1% parry
29 mastery rating = 1% shield
40% shield == 1147 rating == 6.48% avoidance.

So Crushl, while I also favour avoidance like you do, your comparison of 40% shield with 10%-15% avoidance is far from correct.

Nev · 01/31/11, 3:02 PM

I think it's fairly clear that 1% mastery isn't directly comparable to 1% avoidance. For avoidance, the percentage refers to damage taken (in a statistical sense) whereas for mastery the percentage refers to the amount your death strike heals.

If we assume that every DS is a min heal DS (clearly not realistic, but I don't really know what the average DS heal is, nor do I think that figure would be very useful if known - DS is clearly situational), we can say that 1% mastery increases your shields by about .07% of your base health. Assuming identical base health, 1% avoidance (if my math is correct) would be equal to about 14% mastery in this case. It would actually be worth something less than 14% mastery, as all DS heals will not be min heals.

In a more practical sense, it seems as if the simulations, at least, show that mastery rating and dodge/parry rating are (for now) fairly equivalent.

Tieryal · 02/01/11, 5:53 PM

Originally Posted by Nev

I think it's fairly clear that 1% mastery isn't directly comparable to 1% avoidance. For avoidance, the percentage refers to damage taken (in a statistical sense) whereas for mastery the percentage refers to the amount your death strike heals.

Mastery does not refer to the amount your death strike heals for. That is based off the amount of damage you have taken in the last 5 seconds.

Mastery refers to the percentage of your death strike heal which will turn into your next shield.

Nev · 02/01/11, 6:43 PM

What I said was that the percentage modifier refers to the amount healed. As in, if your mastery is 75% that number means 75% of your heal. In the same way, 1% dodge really refers to 1% of the damage taken (well, sort of).
Hope that clears it up.

Lichloathe · 02/02/11, 1:57 AM

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...CN6Uv9sO&hl=en
Here is the spreadsheet with the data from the Avoidance vs Mastery trials

Wolffie · 02/02/11, 4:14 PM

In regards to Scarlet fever now being applied via blood plague, if it works how id assume then it will stream line blood tanking all the more. For example I currently apply the first round with OB and BB, now I will simply have to use OB. Come refresh I use IT and BB to reapply FF and SF, this uses 1F 1B and 2 GCD. Come patch I would not use FF 1F and PS 1U = 2 GCD and still use no mildly useless B runes. Rather come time to reapply I would use Festering Strike 1F 1B 1 GCD (assuming it hit which may be an issue). You will notice that it uses the same amount of previous runes but reduces it by 1 GCD thus making better use of my time. Rune tap after would then give me back my DS plus put up Blade Barrier.

Granted There will be issues when AOE tanking but personally I do not do this often and 1 OB plus Pest will spread everything around, just a small rotation difference.

Does anyone see issues with this??

Imperarx · 02/02/11, 5:03 PM

The problem with festering strike is it only increases the duration of your diseases by up to 6 seconds per strike. So rather than refreshing the diseases for the full duration with 2 runes and 2 GCDs, you're spending 2 runes and 1 GCD to lengthen them by 6 seconds. This wouldn't really work to keep up your diseases unless you were constantly using festering strike, which obviously wouldn't work for a DK tank.

Mi.SC · 02/02/11, 5:07 PM

First of all, the way I interpret the change to Scarlet Fever is that it will only be applied when BP is (re-)applied, meaning that simply increasing the duration of BP by using FeS will not re-apply SF, nor will it increase its duration (unless FeS will be changed that it also increases the SF duration, but i doubt that this will happen) Next to that, FeS only increases the duration of BP and FF by 6 seconds. So even if it will increase the duration on SF somehow, you would still have to keep using FS every 6 seconds to keep it all up.

Result of using FeS (depending on how much points you've put into epidemic, but lets assume 3) is that you would spend a total of 5 Blood and 5 Frost Runes in 30 seconds. If you would re-apply everything the normal way (IT and PS), you would spend 1 Frost and 1 Unholy Rune in that same timespan instead.

Not a good tradeoff, I say.

Magro · 02/03/11, 10:41 AM

I'm probably going to be stating the obvious here, but it became alot clearer after I worked it out in the following way:

It was worked out on the previous page that a 40% Shield in terms of mastery rating, is equal to the rating required for 6.48% avoidance.

40% Shield sounds alot - But when broken down, thats 40% of the 25% of the damage recieved in the previous 5 seconds. This works out to be an additional 10% of the damage recieved in the 5 seconds, as an additional damage absorption. At say, 200k damage over 5 seconds, thats a 20k increase to the shield. I can see where this would add up, but after working it out like that, the 6.48% avoidance you could gain instead of mastery seems far more appealing...

However, I vaguely remember Blizz saying something about them not wanting avoidance to get as high as it did before, where they had to introduce the buff/debuff in ICC. Assuming this could be the tradeoff, where mastery values start to get alot higher, resulting in situation that favors Mastery? Possibly in the next tiers of content? This may be a load of crap, so my bad :P