Given the recent hotfix to the Improved Death Strike talent, would it be viable to glyph DS over, say, RS for threat gen now? Or would the additional 10% crit to RS still be a better option?
I would just glyph DS and RS over HS and use coil as the third (if lichborne spec). Unless doing Rhyolith fragments or both large Ragnaros adds (normal), you won't often be tanking multiple targets if ever so glyphed HS is essentially useless for anything other than trash.
I would just glyph DS and RS over HS and use coil as the third (if lichborne spec). Unless doing Rhyolith fragments or both large Ragnaros adds (normal), you won't often be tanking multiple targets if ever so glyphed HS is essentially useless for anything other than trash.
HS is still superior to DS for Alyzrazor adds, even after the DS buff, and with the DS glyph (per my logs / gear). It just makes it much less painful to stick to a DS rotation while they are hungry to help out with their Tantrum burst.
If you are a LB spec you're probably playing it close to >100 RP and DS is superior to the HS glyph, however if you were non-LB, or the kind of person who sits on low runic power most of the fight HS will see better gains than the DS glyph will typically.
Really depends on your play style for HS/DS glyphs, but RS remains static in every glyph setup.
<stalk and kill> - 25m EST - Now recruiting, US #97 T13, US #76 T12, US #80 T11
[22:56:57.671] Onslaughtx Rune Tap Onslaughtx +24272
[22:56:58.260] Onslaughtx Tipping of the Scales Onslaughtx +26997
[22:56:58.802] Onslaughtx gains Blood Shield from Onslaughtx (Remaining: 99978)
[22:56:58.802] Onslaughtx Death Strike Onslaughtx +71477
[22:57:00.321] Onslaughtx's Blood Shield is refreshed by Onslaughtx (Remaining: 199957)
[22:57:00.321] Onslaughtx Death Strike Onslaughtx +71478
I noted DS signifcantly improved my DPS on the hatchlings last night, I dropped RS glyph, and now have DS and HS glyphed. But again like Onslaught said, it really depends on play style, and I'd even go on to say healing setup for that fight. I believe that fight could easily be 1 healed.
I haven't heard anyone complain about this yet so just to make sure it's not just me:
Does your DnD also do nothing when you use it while your AMS is up? I think that bug was introduced back in 4.1 but after doing countless Ryo attempts it really got annoying.
Does it just happen to me or do people just not care?
I have not noticed this dnd bug, but I just tested it.
Test was performed on mobs in hyjal, if I had ams up and dropped dnd, the mobs would take no damage from it, nor agro from it. When ams was off, dnd performed as it should, pulled agro and did damage.
Yeah, that only makes sense since you gain an invisible Death and Decay debuff when you cast DnD and AMS is known to prevent debuffs from going up during it's use. I have really no idea why DnD started applying a debuff though in 4.1. At first I figured Blizzard was trying to give us an option to cancel DnD prematurely but mixed up making it a debuff instead a buff (I still tried to /cancelaura Death and Decay with no effect though) so I am really quite baffled as to what's going on (especially since it's now 4.2 and we can probably rule out of the fact that DnD was supposed to be a buff on us if it's not fixed by now).
There is even a combat log event stating you're immune to Death and Decay if AMS is active when cast.
Noticed this since 4.1 and at first I just assumed it was the fact that certain mobs had a delayed threat table when spawned (since they simply ignored my DnD).
Right, I'm a dodge/parry blood dk, and I'm a bit confused really over trinkets.
Currently, I'm using Vial of Stolen Memories (359) and Symbiotic Worm (359), and in my bags I have Scales of Life (378), Spidersilk Spindle (378) and will soon have Stay of Execution (378).
I have tried using the scales and spindle, but I can't really see how they're superior to my t11 ones. Vial is a nice cd and symbiotic worm gives a mastery proc at exactly the right time you want one. I can't see how a 17k heal every minute is superior to even of these, especially on the spindle one which has a huge chunk of mastery as it's base stat (and as stated previously I've gone full dodge/parry). Also, the Stay of Execution is just a 57k absorb, and then taking 13k of it as damage (so effectively a 34k absorb, every 2 minutes which would be equivalent to the other two trinkets 17k absorbs every minute).
Basically, the main difference between the three trinkets, is how they save 17k health per minute and the base stats (stamina, mastery or dodge).
I just don't see why a 17k heal every minute is superior to my Vial and Worm. They just seem more useful to me.
I don't know, am I just undervaluing the Firelands trinkets?
Trinkets are especially tricky. There is often a personal-preference over proc or on-use effect that many times makes older trinkets work better *for you* than others. I may not personally agree because my play style may differ.
Personally, I agree with you on the 359 trinkets, and Rawr will show similar agreements. Though it likes the scales a bit more because of the big chunk. So basically, no you're not doing anything wrong.
Interesting to know would be if the 2p debuff stacks with your diseases. If you apply your diseases while the 2p debuff is up does it count as 4 diseases? Probably not..that would be a sweet dmg buff.
If the effect actually made the target count as 4 diseases there wouldn't be a DPS DK in existence who wouldn't wear it. It was tested in the PTR if I recall and found to simply fixate every attack at it's max of 2 disease increase. I think there was an issue where it wasn't working for Bloodboil, but I don't know if it was corrected or not.
Originally Posted by rh8452
I would just glyph DS and RS over HS and use coil as the third (if lichborne spec). Unless doing Rhyolith fragments or both large Ragnaros adds (normal), you won't often be tanking multiple targets if ever so glyphed HS is essentially useless for anything other than trash.
I may be recaling wrongly, but wasn't the glyph of DC altered to not affect DCs used to heal some patches ago? Or am I thinking Morbidity?
On trinkets, I'm not too impressed with Scales. I thought I'd maximize the use effectiveness by tying it into VB, but frequently I find the stored heal has either dropped off or hasn't been stored at all. I suspect it's more effective in 25, where presumably your life bounces around a lot more and you're more likely to have been topped-off some time before you need to activate it, but in it's current state and for my timing of VB/ the amount and timing of the overheal I get it isn't showing exceptional colours at all.
I may be recaling wrongly, but wasn't the glyph of DC altered to not affect DCs used to heal some patches ago? Or am I thinking Morbidity?
[Glyph of Dark Death] still works to enhance the healing, I suspect you're thinking of the fact that [Glyph of Death's Embrace] was changed such that it no longer refunded Runic Power when used to self-heal.
On trinkets, I'm not too impressed with Scales. I thought I'd maximize the use effectiveness by tying it into VB, but frequently I find the stored heal has either dropped off or hasn't been stored at all. I suspect it's more effective in 25, where presumably your life bounces around a lot more and you're more likely to have been topped-off some time before you need to activate it, but in it's current state and for my timing of VB/ the amount and timing of the overheal I get it isn't showing exceptional colours at all.
Scales is simply awful. Outside the small stam gain over the two T11 trinkets (assuming you have the 372 versions, either easily obtained), the heal just pales in comparison to either T11 trinket's proc/use. A single additional boss swing avoided with the vial use is as good as 3 scales heals, and the mastery proc from worm gives you a ton of mastery exactly when you would want it.
Our DK swapped in essence of the eternal flame for fights where he wanted more mastery, as its on-use strength is very good for threat and has a short cooldown.
I plan on giving a much more in depth post about Blood DK's and their current status once progression is over for us, but I did want to chime in here about trinket selection since I see it is a pretty hot topic:
Scales is a very good trinket as is, and is even better for a Blood DK. Sure it is situational and any fight where you would need avoidance (ie Baelroc) it isn't an optimal choice. I'm sure a ton of ppl will disagree because they aren't good at managing it and would much rather have a trinket that procs for you, etc. As far as comparisons to the t11 trinkets, you're comaring 544 stm to 650stm, that is quite a large difference.
Having VB glyphed (which I always do) gives you a significant heal (that can also crit btw; see screenshot below) that lines up perfect since it is on a 1min cd. Like I said, yes, it is situational, but in most cases I would enjoy being able to control tossing up to a 25 or 50k heal on myself once per minute.
It takes some getting used to and much more effort/monitoring than a trinket w/ a proc or 'on use' effect, but it comes through quite often. Being able to take huge spikes in dmg from not having up a blood shield / AF or Insp falling off / raid dmg + boss melee / etc, having something that is 100% controllable is something I prefer hands down over relying on rng, but then again this is just all my opinion and how I tailor my itemization (control/consistency > rng).
Edit: My stance is in reference to 25m raiding, not 10m. I could see the trinket losing viability on 10m due to what Pintofbrew pointed out earlier about the buff possibly falling off, but that is just speculation. I am sure someone who uses it and runs 10s can comment more on that.
I plan on giving a much more in depth post about Blood DK's and their current status once progression is over for us, but I did want to chime in here about trinket selection since I see it is a pretty hot topic:
Scales is a very good trinket as is, and is even better for a Blood DK. Sure it is situational and any fight where you would need avoidance (ie Baelroc) it isn't an optimal choice. I'm sure a ton of ppl will disagree because they aren't good at managing it and would much rather have a trinket that procs for you, etc. As far as comparisons to the t11 trinkets, you're comaring 544 stm to 650stm, that is quite a large difference.
Having VB glyphed (which I always do) gives you a significant heal (that can also crit btw; see screenshot below) that lines up perfect since it is on a 1min cd. Like I said, yes, it is situational, but in most cases I would enjoy being able to control tossing up to a 25 or 50k heal on myself once per minute.
It takes some getting used to and much more effort/monitoring than a trinket w/ a proc or 'on use' effect, but it comes through quite often. Being able to take huge spikes in dmg from not having up a blood shield / AF or Insp falling off / raid dmg + boss melee / etc, having something that is 100% controllable is something I prefer hands down over relying on rng, but then again this is just all my opinion and how I tailor my itemization (control/consistency > rng).
Edit: My stance is in reference to 25m raiding, not 10m. I could see the trinket losing viability on 10m due to what Pintofbrew pointed out earlier about the buff possibly falling off, but that is just speculation. I am sure someone who uses it and runs 10s can comment more on that.
Well I'm looking forward to that for sure!
Also i found it quite useful to make a macro for Rune Tap and Scales together when I noticed I didn't realy use it on cooldown.
If timed correctly Rune Tap pretty much never goes into overheal so having some extra heal on every 2nd Tap seems pretty good if you can't manage the trinket perfectly.
Synergy with VB as Riggins already pointed out maximizes it's effectiveness. Not only are they on the same length of CD, but VB amplifies the heal, and more importantly, they are both used at their maximum effectiveness: You only ever want VB when you're low and need topping, and you'd only want an instant self-heal when you're low and need topping. It's obvious that the optimal way to use Scales is in conjunction with VT.
I'm just a dirty casual normal 10-man tank, and I frequently see the buff drop off. I would not be at all surprised if every time you wanted it it healed in full in 25, particularly in heroic, but as for the lower-end of the dificulty scale, I'm not impressed by it.
Edit:
Originally Posted by VoidStar
[Glyph of Dark Death] still works to enhance the healing, I suspect you're thinking of the fact that [Glyph of Death's Embrace] was changed such that it no longer refunded Runic Power when used to self-heal.
Edit: My stance is in reference to 25m raiding, not 10m. I could see the trinket losing viability on 10m due to what Pintofbrew pointed out earlier about the buff possibly falling off, but that is just speculation. I am sure someone who uses it and runs 10s can comment more on that.
I just tested this out last night after acquiring the trinket for cheap. In our 10m raid, I never had an issue of not having the max heal saved up once per minute. The buff you gain is quite long, although I'm not recalling it exactly (something like 15-20 seconds?). In that amount of time, I would imagine I would be topped off in every scenario. While the trinket itself has a cooldown, the buff, or stored heal amount does not. As soon as I used the trinket, The buff falls, but immediately begins stacking back up again, and was always ready for the next application.
Like others have said, binding this to VB has nice results.
Synergy with VB as Riggins already pointed out maximizes it's effectiveness. Not only are they on the same length of CD, but VB amplifies the heal, and more importantly, they are both used at their maximum effectiveness: You only ever want VB when you're low and need topping, and you'd only want an instant self-heal when you're low and need topping. It's obvious that the optimal way to use Scales is in conjunction with VT.
I'm just a dirty casual normal 10-man tank, and I frequently see the buff drop off. I would not be at all surprised if every time you wanted it it healed in full in 25, particularly in heroic, but as for the lower-end of the dificulty scale, I'm not impressed by it.
Edit:
Thank you, that is correct.
How does the buff fall off? What bosses are you tanking that isn't a constant stream of damage? I don't have the trinket but is the buff like Vengeance where it dynamically updates to your last 20 seconds of heals? If not then there really shouldn't be a reason why that buff falls, esp since DS/RT add to the buff.
Also most healers should be tossing a small heal on you anyway: Pallies to keep up Conviction, Druids to keep up Harmony, and whatever it is that Shaman/Priests do.
You may have not realized what the trinket's tooltip says: It stores heals from overheal. You have to have been overhealed for it's amount in the last 20sec. This in turn makes it depend heavily on what you're tanking, how you're tanking it and most critically, how you're healed. I find it of extremely low usefulness while tanking Riplimb, and likewise Beth upstairs. In the former case, the buff will drop by the time the dog comes back from fetching the spear, and I won't be overhealed for quite some time, because I'll start with a minor CD like DRW or BS, and not take anything significant until near the end of the spear cycle, where my healer will not have OHd me at all. Likewise in Beth upstairs I'll chain CDs on her aoe and have minimal damage intake, until at some point I'll run out of CDs and get an unlucky hit in without BS and go to 40%, at which point I'll use VB for healer efficiency but won't have had 20k worth of overheal. In both scenaria, the preceding damage phases will have been minor heal intake for me, but that's 90% due to my minor tanking role.
I never suggested there is a problem obtaining the buff, or there is a CD issue with the buff. I'm suggesting that for lower-intensity roles the buff simply may not be there. You could argue "so why do you care if the trinket works or not since you have a lol-role", but I counter that with the following: Even in low-intensity roles poop may hit windmills, and when it does, going to a sudden 30%HP and pressing VB/RT/Scales/DS at the same time and seeing scales heal you for 3k because that's all the OH you've had stored is a moment I would have preferred to still be wearing Symbiotic Worm and seen that DS result in a 80k shield than a pathetic 3k heal.
Overheal is a consequence, a side-effect if you will, of intense damage/healing phases. The more healers are occupied by your health, and the more damage you take (which in turn locates more healer focus on you) the more likely you have had recent OH. Perhaps my experience with scales is tainted by my over-confindent healers who aren't at all bothered about leaving me at low HP for extended periods of time, mostly because it's extremely unlikely it'll result in my death anyhow because we only do normal-10, and I spam CDs like there's nothing else to keep me from boredom.
Originally Posted by Taiyoken
Also most healers should be tossing a small heal on you anyway: Pallies to keep up Conviction, Druids to keep up Harmony, and whatever it is that Shaman/Priests do.
I suspect having a druid would be the ideal scenario for Scales, as LB trickling away will be by and large the biggest source of OH you can have. Discopriests will be tossing you a PW:S, which heals for pathetic amounts, and ES only heals when hits get through. With the exception of 25s, I doubt a healer won't find another target who they can toss something to for the express purpose of keeping buffs up, be it Harmony, Rapture or Conviction.
I don't think anyone suggested that the trinket is the best for every fight and every scenario. You mention Beth and Shannox as two fights where it is not exactly beneficial (although, if I were tanking Shannox instead of Riplimb, I could argue the other way). With Beth'tilac, I would have the TB trinket on instead.
Originally Posted by riggins
Sure it is situational and any fight where you would need avoidance (ie Baelroc) it isn't an optimal choice.
Don't be mistaken into thinking that we are suggesting this trinket is the best trinket and up time is not an issue for every fight. When I said I tested it out and didn't have any issues, that was considering that I used the trinket on fights where it made sense.
Edit: The quote from Rig was meant to support the first paragraph, not me responding to it.
I've been struggling a bit on trinket choice for Ragnaros lately. I've been using the TB trink/Stay of Execution and had great results being able to rotate TB trink and AMS for traps, as well as hit AMS+TB trink for seed explosions, but in P3 find it a bit worthless. Not sure if a better choice like the Scales would help with my own survivability or it the resists are doing the best job here.
That all may be true, in regards to tanking upstairs on Beth, or Riplimb on Shannox. However, there are two counter-arguments that I can think of.
1 - If you know you're in a certain role where a certain item or stat is less beneficial for that specific situation, then you don't use it. On a fight like Baleroc, avoidance is king, so if you want to optimize for it, you go for more avoidance and less mastery. Similarly, if you find a certain trinket to be less useful on a specific fight, then use a different trinket for that situation, just like you would want to switch stats for certain situations. I generally carry around 5-6 trinkets to all raids, and switch them around depending on the boss and what my role on the specific fight is.
2 - In a general setting, you *should* have some overhealing on you if you're actually in a position where you're taking enough damage to warrant using a cooldown (such as your trinket). If you find that some of your cooldowns aren't being used optimally (as in, you use your cooldowns very often, then leaving you exposed where you need your trinket and can't use it because you haven't taken enough damage to make your healers toss you the extra heals to have a little bit of overheals on you), you could consider reworking your cooldown mapping in such a way that doesn't put you in that type of situation. I generally go into a fight knowing exactly when I'm going to use each cooldown (presumably in the best order to maximize their usefulness that I could think of).
Scales is simply awful. Outside the small stam gain over the two T11 trinkets (assuming you have the 372 versions, either easily obtained), the heal just pales in comparison to either T11 trinket's proc/use. A single additional boss swing avoided with the vial use is as good as 3 scales heals, and the mastery proc from worm gives you a ton of mastery exactly when you would want it.
Our DK swapped in essence of the eternal flame for fights where he wanted more mastery, as its on-use strength is very good for threat and has a short cooldown.
The more I think about it, the more I disagree. Scales has a one minute cd, and when macro'd to VB gives you a 24k ish heal which can crit. So in 2 minutes, this would be a 48k heal which is about 1 and a half boss swings? Vial gives about an extra 6% dodge for 20 seconds, if the boss has a (for example) 2 second boss timer, then there are 10 boss swings and a 60% chance total you will dodge one of them because of vial's effect.
So wheras vial gives you a 60% chance to dodge one attack, in that time scales will give you a heal equivalent to more than one attack.
When I think about it like that, it seems Scales > Vial
The more I think about it, the more I disagree. Scales has a one minute cd, and when macro'd to VB gives you a 24k ish heal which can crit. So in 2 minutes, this would be a 48k heal which is about 1 and a half boss swings? Vial gives about an extra 6% dodge for 20 seconds, if the boss has a (for example) 2 second boss timer, then there are 10 boss swings and a 60% chance total you will dodge one of them because of vial's effect.
So wheras vial gives you a 60% chance to dodge one attack, in that time scales will give you a heal equivalent to more than one attack.
When I think about it like that, it seems Scales > Vial
I'm unsure what bosses hit you for 32K on a 2s swing timer (making 48K equal 1.5 boss swings), maybe Argaloth 10-man.
Scales has the overheal/charge requirement, which can make it unusable in certain situations.
I assume the heal to be based on your spell crit, meaning it has a .. 5? 6% chance to crit. Hardly something to depend on. Nice if it happens.
Many times you will get hit by a gigantic divine light crit or whatnot that tops you off in the time it takes for you to react and push the VB/trinket use button, rendering the heal as overheal.
There haven't appeared to be many boss fights this tier where more stam is awfully helpful. While scales does give more stam, most of the situations where a tank gets gibbed occur from taking a magic damage spike along with a physical swing (TB trinket providing the best mitigation here) or overwhelming incoming physical damage over a very short period such as on Shannox or Alysrazor heroic, and on those fights tank positioning and situational awareness does more to prevent such deaths than scales ever will.
If you can predict a large incoming damage spike, as a good tank should be able to in a lot of situations, the reactive nature of scales' heal is less useful compared to the proactive nature of other trinkets like stay of execution / vial / etc. If I know I'm about to take arc slash / white swing / tick of bleed dot on shannox while having to move the boss, I would VB proactively knowing my health is about to dip so that the next incoming heals (that are already mid-cast) that hit me top me off. So at the very least, macroing scales to the VB button would be silly. I just look at a ~24K heal on a 1-minute cooldown and question whether that's something that'll save your life in such situations compared to an automatic 1000 mastery below a certain health threshold (pairing with WotN) or a decent chunk of avoidance. When I look at all the fights, I can't see any where scales is something I'd use over other available trinkets.
Many times you will get hit by a gigantic divine light crit or whatnot that tops you off in the time it takes for you to react and push the VB/trinket use button, rendering the heal as overheal.
I have to disagree here. I would hope that you are watching close enough to react to a damage spike faster than a healer can, and then wait for the DL cast. There are plenty of times where this trinket can save your life. You reference situations where other trinkets are superior, but I can think of more than a few where I would rather have the free heal than a trinket based on RNG or my health dipping dangerously low. Again, I am not claiming this is the best trinket in the game, and I don't think anyone else is either, but it has its uses.
Originally Posted by rh8452
If you can predict a large incoming damage spike, as a good tank should be able to in a lot of situations, the reactive nature of scales' heal is less useful compared to the proactive nature of other trinkets like stay of execution / vial / etc.
Aside from Stay of Execution (which I love) many of the other trinkets require you to rely on RNG or dip dangerously low in health, which is within the range of being killed on the next swing. You do not have a guaranteed dodge with Vial, and sure, you may proc your Symbiotic Worm, but will the next DS connect to heal you, or will it miss (RNG) and you die regardless?
You can flip the coin either way. I'm not 100% sure either way which is better, but I agree with riggins: I prefer consistency and control over relying on the RNG to save my life.
You can flip the coin either way. I'm not 100% sure either way which is better, but I agree with riggins: I prefer consistency and control over relying on the RNG to save my life.
You mention that you and other high-end DK tanks (like Rigg) prefer the "consistency and control" of Mastery. When you stack mastery to such an extreme degree, how do you feel about the value of expertise and hit to ensure that those incredibly powerful shields are applied?
From personal experience, getting a chain of dodged/missed/parried Death Strikes can be fatal during high raid and tank damage scenarios. I have multiple reforge sets set up, but I prefer to soft-cap expertise for a bit of added consistency with my self-healing.
07/22/11, 9:08 AM
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