 |
12/14/10, 3:49 PM
|
#46
|
|
Von Kaiser
Night Elf Death Knight
Thunderlord
|
I actually dropped blood worms from my spec because of the shields on Omnitron seemed to be triggered with them last week.
|
|
|
|
|
12/15/10, 12:20 AM
|
#47
|
|
Von Kaiser
Orc Death Knight
Darkspear
|
Originally Posted by oneal13rru
Also: any chance you could put something rough together to model the value of Haste as a survival stat?
|
Tweaking the amount of Haste is an option that's already in BloodSim. The only thing that I would say could stand to be changed is to have the input be Rating instead of Percentage, for easier comparison to other stats on a 1->1 rating basis. I'll save you the time, though: Haste as a survival stat is terrible and grossly inferior to Mastery.
|
Or, barring this, is there a thread somewhere with the magic/physical ratios and raw damage throughput from the various bosses? That info would make it possible to get rough averages out of my spreadsheet.
|
What I'd really, really love to do if I can find the bandwidth is model all (or as many as reasonable) of the current bosses and have this be an option when running a simulation. Unfortunately because of my schedule I have literally zero time to Raid so I have only a rudimentary (at best) understanding of their mechanics. Is there somewhere that has extreme detail on each boss's abilities that I can use for this? I've checked TankSpot and I've A) Only found guides for Magmaw, Halfus, ODS and Argaloth and B) The only one of those that has the detail I need is the ODS guide, but even that doesn't have melee swing information. Wowhead appears to have all the abilities and damage values, but not cooldowns or usage intervals.
|
Edit for: Those values hold true for myself as well for dodge/parry base at 85.
|
Excellent.
Last edited by Lichloathe : 12/15/10 at 1:36 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
12/15/10, 11:11 AM
|
#48
|
|
Von Kaiser
Undead Death Knight
Bonechewer
|
Originally Posted by GravityDK
Diseaseless also means that you should not spec into epidemic, blood caked blade or crimson scourge.
|
I find crimson scourge still valuable for the 40% damage on bloodboil. Although with threat how it is, I might be able to do without.
Question:
How do most diseaseless tanks find themselves pulling? AoE is normally pretty easy with Bloodboil / DnD, but on bosses I mostly just find myself opening with outbreak. Should I open with IT as the F should be back up by the time I need? Pulling with only the outbreak dot doesn't make me very comfortable.
|
|
|
|
|
12/15/10, 11:31 AM
|
#49
|
|
Von Kaiser
Human Death Knight
Turalyon (EU)
|
Originally Posted by path411
I find crimson scourge still valuable for the 40% damage on bloodboil. Although with threat how it is, I might be able to do without.
Question:
How do most diseaseless tanks find themselves pulling? AoE is normally pretty easy with Bloodboil / DnD, but on bosses I mostly just find myself opening with outbreak. Should I open with IT as the F should be back up by the time I need? Pulling with only the outbreak dot doesn't make me very comfortable.
|
I understand your view about pulling with something that you don’t normally use other than once a minute, and especially at "range". However, I like the fact of pulling with outbreak as it instantly applies the attack speed de-buff before another can apply it. Those 1st few seconds before the de-buff's on the boss, buffs on you or healers start to land heals depending on the encounter can be at times troublesome. Especialy if there is some sort of "start of encounter lag" which some claim can occur. So lowering the incoming damage by slowing the swing speed before them even land a hit is in my eyes beneficial. I also, depending on the encounter like to use Death grip, the vast majority of encounters now a days use boss's that are not taunt immune, (or let me say not encountered one that is yet) so having those seconds fixate to know you can position at your pleasure without the worry of trigger happy DPS can be useful. Let’s face it, if the DPS are going to take the boss from you, it’s going to be within the 1st 10 seconds of a fight with our current threat levels, after which time you will have a solid lead misdirects or tricks aside. So having the ability to cut that "chance" down to a very small window of 2-3 GCD's without the requirement to chastise your DPS is quite priceless.
|
|
|
|
|
12/15/10, 12:27 PM
|
#50
|
|
Glass Joe
Tauren Death Knight
Balnazzar
|
Originally Posted by path411
Question:
How do most diseaseless tanks find themselves pulling? AoE is normally pretty easy with Bloodboil / DnD, but on bosses I mostly just find myself opening with outbreak. Should I open with IT as the F should be back up by the time I need? Pulling with only the outbreak dot doesn't make me very comfortable.
|
My personal preference is Outbreak, Taunt. Gives me attack speed before reaching the target, and guaranteed time to establish aggro. Mind you, my guild hasn't got enough 85 healers yet, so thats all based on 5mans, and may not continue to be true into raids.
|
|
|
|
|
12/15/10, 5:53 PM
|
#51
|
|
Piston Honda
Tauren Death Knight
Frostwolf
|
Originally Posted by oneal13rru
My personal preference is Outbreak, Taunt. Gives me attack speed before reaching the target, and guaranteed time to establish aggro. Mind you, my guild hasn't got enough 85 healers yet, so thats all based on 5mans, and may not continue to be true into raids.
|
I'm not really clear on why you would taunt on pull. Taunt has no effect if there's no one higher on threat than you.
Best pull would probably be Outbreak and BB to apply the haste debuff and the damage debuff.
|
Tastes like Awesome, because it's made of Awesome(TM)
|
|
|
12/15/10, 7:15 PM
|
#52
|
|
Von Kaiser
Orc Death Knight
Draenor (EU)
|
Originally Posted by Mindaika
Best pull would probably be Outbreak and BB to apply the haste debuff and the damage debuff.
|
This.
Opening with Icy Touch and Death and Decay is a loss of a Death Strike.
My personal preference is Outbreak - Blood Boil - Death Strike - Heart Strike - Rune Strike. The initial Death Strike is horribly weak, but its something. First Blood Boil regardless of whether or not someone else can provide the Debuff just to get it on the Target faster. Heart Strike to get Blade Barrier rolling and then Rune Strike really starts pulling in the big TPS numbers.
On Crimson Scourge: Even the 40% added damage to Blood Boil doesn't make it worth it. Just drop a DnD at the start of a pull and you've got all the mobs tied to you like a Perma-Taunt.
|
|
|
|
|
12/15/10, 10:00 PM
|
#53
|
|
Glass Joe
Orc Death Knight
Laughing Skull
|
One thing I didn't see mentioned here was runeforging, and at first I thought it would be obvious, but I took a closer look.
Stoneskin Gargoyle gives me ~2k hp and 1k armor (my tank set is pretty crappy atm), but Swordshattering is 4% parry. 4% extra avoidance seems to be much, much better than a reletively crappy amount of stam, tho 1k armor still seems heavy -- I'm just not sure how heavy.
Just something I noticed recently. Any thoughts?
|
|
|
|
|
12/15/10, 11:35 PM
|
#54
|
|
Von Kaiser
Orc Death Knight
Darkspear
|
Originally Posted by path411
Question:
How do most diseaseless tanks find themselves pulling? AoE is normally pretty easy with Bloodboil / DnD, but on bosses I mostly just find myself opening with outbreak. Should I open with IT as the F should be back up by the time I need? Pulling with only the outbreak dot doesn't make me very comfortable.
|
Pull with Outbreak. It's not like any of the ranged attacks you have will do any significant amount of threat anyway (read: Icy Touch). Blowing IT will make you lose a Death Strike. You taking reduced damage is generally more important than DPS being able to light the boss up immediately on the pull.
Last edited by Lichloathe : 12/15/10 at 11:47 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
12/16/10, 12:13 AM
|
#55
|
|
Piston Honda
Tauren Death Knight
Dath'Remar
|
Originally Posted by Coord
Stoneskin Gargoyle gives me ~2k hp and 1k armor (my tank set is pretty crappy atm), but Swordshattering is 4% parry. 4% extra avoidance seems to be much, much better than a reletively crappy amount of stam
|
Over the last few days I've been discussing this and there is some strong rationale to support swordshattering once you have 'enough' stamina. "Enough" is likely to be when you're in all epics or pre-raid blues. Reasoning is as you suggested: the additional HP is no longer as important as it was in Cataclysm, since we have so much longer to survive than the prior two-shot death bosses; helping your healer with mana is through avoidance not stamina; the additional parry helps more with mana conservation than the extra armour.
|
|
|
|
|
12/16/10, 2:20 AM
|
#56
|
|
Von Kaiser
Draenei Shaman
Burning Blade (EU)
|
About Stoneskin Gargoyle vs Swordshattering.
This will depend a lot on your other stats too, like current amount of armor, avoidance and stamina. Remember that DS will always minimum heal for 7% of your hp's, even if you did not take any damage in the preceding 5 secs. Armor will mitigate a lot of damage over time too. It depends on fight mechanics too, adds and magical damage.
But as GravityDK pointed out, I think it's safe to assume that at higher gear levels with a decent amount of stamina and armor, Sworshattering will conserve more mana. Since armor value diminishes a bit nearing the armorcap, and 4% undiminished Parry is quite a lot.
|
|
|
|
|
12/16/10, 4:19 AM
|
#57
|
|
Piston Honda
Human Death Knight
Eonar (EU)
|
Originally Posted by Skulmaster
Since armor value diminishes a bit nearing the armorcap, and 4% undiminished Parry is quite a lot.
|
This is coming back to vanilla armor vs. stam debate.
Armor value never diminishes. Same amount of added armor will reduce the damage taken by the same amount no matter if one is at 50% reduction or 70%.
|
|
|
|
|
12/16/10, 4:43 AM
|
#58
|
|
Von Kaiser
Draenei Shaman
Burning Blade (EU)
|
Originally Posted by zagor
This is coming back to vanilla armor vs. stam debate.
Armor value never diminishes. Same amount of added armor will reduce the damage taken by the same amount no matter if one is at 50% reduction or 70%.
|
Armor damage reduction diminishes, going from 50 to 55% DR requires less armor then going from 70 to 75%. So Mitigation diminishes too. Your time to live doesn't though. You can find an excellent explanation here Diminishing-Returns-Armour
|
|
|
|
|
12/16/10, 4:49 AM
|
#59
|
|
Piston Honda
Human Death Knight
Eonar (EU)
|
Yes I know that article. I'll just quote this line from that article:
Mitigation is subject to diminishing returns, but survivability is not
Like I said, armor doesn't have diminishing returns. Adding more armor will never suffer from diminishing returns, you always get full bang for your bucks.
|
|
|
|
|
12/16/10, 5:17 AM
|
#60
|
|
Piston Honda
Pandaren Monk
Stormreaver (EU)
|
Originally Posted by Mindaika
I'm not really clear on why you would taunt on pull. Taunt has no effect if there's no one higher on threat than you.
Best pull would probably be Outbreak and BB to apply the haste debuff and the damage debuff.
|
Taunt has the effect of locking the target onto you for a fixed duration, even if someone would otherwise pull aggro. For initial threat and survivability, Outbreak, Taunt while running in, BB once the boss is in range, then DS, RS, HS.
|
|
|
|
|
|