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Old 12/30/10, 1:44 PM   #106
Illundai
Bald Bull
 
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Worgen Death Knight
 
The Maelstrom (EU)
While that might be true, I think you're hugely over exaggerating the value of that timed DS heal/shield. While I understand the principle, in reality you're playing the sponge 'role' if you're going to use your DS like that. If you are using them actively rather than reactively you're preventing damage, rather than healing it up.

I've healed before and I'll tell you, seeing huge spikes come in that the tank himself helps to heal back up is much more prone to freak out a healer than taking a little extra damage in a whole. YMMV of course, but I think I'm going to stick with my avoidance > mastery > threat for now. I might try out full mastery, but honestly reforging to threat stats is something I don't think I'll ever do.

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Old 12/30/10, 2:11 PM   #107
pindle
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Emeriss (EU)
Originally Posted by Illundai View Post
While that might be true, I think you're hugely over exaggerating the value of that timed DS heal/shield. While I understand the principle, in reality you're playing the sponge 'role' if you're going to use your DS like that. If you are using them actively rather than reactively you're preventing damage, rather than healing it up.

I've healed before and I'll tell you, seeing huge spikes come in that the tank himself helps to heal back up is much more prone to freak out a healer than taking a little extra damage in a whole. YMMV of course, but I think I'm going to stick with my avoidance > mastery > threat for now. I might try out full mastery, but honestly reforging to threat stats is something I don't think I'll ever do.
I agree that's a danger you have to look out for, at first I have been delaying my DSs too much trying to get bigger heals/shields, it took me a while to get really comfortable with that. All you bascially have to do is DS each 5-6 seconds and not delay it too much to keep up shields. Unless ofcourse you're expecting some fight specific incoming damage, like double strike. Doing that well actually made me a bit easier to heal on hard hitting bosses compared to the warrior tank we had with us, although granted this is just anecdotal. I think he had over twice the amount of tank deaths on e.g. Chimaeron compared to me. Like you said, YMMV and ofcourse mastery and DS usage is very dependant on encounter, hit/exp, player skill and other factors such as lag.

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Old 01/02/11, 9:21 AM   #108
mikepardon
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
Shadowsong (EU)
Majors: DRW mandatory, and VB is a good option. Third slot up to you. I like bone shield for the run-speed when opening a fight.
I'm reading through the glyphs seeing that DRW is Mandatory for a 50% threat increase, might just be me but in heroics 5-mans and raids I haven't even had anyone creep close to my threat. Use a few Rune Strikes and you're golden!
EDIT: Though then again sod 15% run speed get rid of Bone Shield want run speed just go on UH pres :P

With AoE being what it is now, healers are leaving HP a little lower as topping them is a strain on mana (or so I find).
To help wouldn't it be more benificial to have Rune Tap as the major instead of the (imo) pointless threat?

Healing 5% hp with current health pools is 20k per person which will leave a lot less strain on healers.

Last edited by mikepardon : 01/02/11 at 9:31 AM.

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Old 01/02/11, 11:54 AM   #109
Illundai
Bald Bull
 
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Worgen Death Knight
 
The Maelstrom (EU)
Originally Posted by mikepardon View Post
Healing 5% hp with current health pools is 20k per person which will leave a lot less strain on healers.
5% of ~110k is not 20k. I do tend to glyph Rune Tap for some fights like Chimaeron and Conclave (there are more!) but don't overestimate how much healing it does.

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Old 01/02/11, 11:13 PM   #110
GravityDK
Piston Honda
 
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Tauren Death Knight
 
Dath'Remar
I've updated OP to demote glyph of DRW, as I agree we don't really need more threat. I don't think there's a compelling argument for any other glyph to be its mandatory alternative though. Thus the recommended spec now leaves that glyph slot empty. Rune Tap is fairly compelling, though I think most endgame raiding tanks will swap it in as they see fit.

For gems/enchants/gearing: whilst I think the general arguments are now in favour of mastery or avoidance instead of pure-stamina, it's not conclusive yet so I have left that referred to as an ongoing discussion.

For Lichborne, I don't think the OP really needs to elaborate as instead I've linked to the very detailed discussions we've had elsewhere.

I think we should add a few recommended addons to OP, though. I can't play without Doc Debug Runes and Blood Shield Tracker, for example. I'd welcome any discussion in a constructive EJ-fashion on endgame raid tanking addons; or via PM.

Last edited by GravityDK : 01/02/11 at 11:27 PM.

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Old 01/03/11, 2:21 AM   #111
Lichloathe
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Darkspear
I'll get the numbers in here later tonight when I have time, but after using the most recent version of BloodSim (when I switched it to use Ratings) to run comparisons, Mastery beats avoidance at my character's gear level (just above the level needed to Raid) by about 1% from the average of 200 eight minute fights.

Things worth considering:
- It's a 1% damage decrease and that is both within the margin for error and may be too small to actually matter.
- Avoidance is likely to become less valuable on a 1:1 basis than Mastery as rating levels go up with gear and DR hits it harder.
- Simulations were run assuming a purely physical fight, which is not realistic, and the value of Mastery goes up in comparison to Avoidance as Death Strike heals magic damage but avoidance has no effect on it.

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Old 01/03/11, 4:17 AM   #112
Gort
Don Flamenco
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Hyjal
Originally Posted by Lichloathe View Post
I'll get the numbers in here later tonight when I have time, but after using the most recent version of BloodSim (when I switched it to use Ratings) to run comparisons, Mastery beats avoidance at my character's gear level (just above the level needed to Raid) by about 1% from the average of 200 eight minute fights.

Things worth considering:
- It's a 1% damage decrease and that is both within the margin for error and may be too small to actually matter.
- Avoidance is likely to become less valuable on a 1:1 basis than Mastery as rating levels go up with gear and DR hits it harder.
- Simulations were run assuming a purely physical fight, which is not realistic, and the value of Mastery goes up in comparison to Avoidance as Death Strike heals magic damage but avoidance has no effect on it.
Re: your point #3, while Death Strike absolutely heals off the non-physical damage that avoidance doesn't affect, Mastery would also have no effect, as Blood Shield is physical only. You'd get bigger shields on any non-magical portion of the damage intake, but avoidance would also impact that fraction, so while I wouldn't call it a wash necessarily, I also don't see an obvious reason to aggressively pursue Mastery as magic damage increases.


Unless I'm missing something entirely obvious?

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Old 01/03/11, 5:10 AM   #113
Lichloathe
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Darkspear
Originally Posted by Gort View Post
Re: your point #3, while Death Strike absolutely heals off the non-physical damage that avoidance doesn't affect, Mastery would also have no effect, as Blood Shield is physical only. You'd get bigger shields on any non-magical portion of the damage intake, but avoidance would also impact that fraction, so while I wouldn't call it a wash necessarily, I also don't see an obvious reason to aggressively pursue Mastery as magic damage increases.

Unless I'm missing something entirely obvious?
The larger shield you get from healing the magic damage reduces subsequent physical damage.

To make the scenario simple, call it a dragon that sometimes breathes fire on you. The simulation results show that, if you ignore the breath entirely, you will take 1% less damage by increasing your Mastery than you would by increasing your Avoidance by an equivalent amount of Rating.

Once you add the breath into the equation, however, the amount of damage that the extra Mastery reduces goes up because for the Death Strike(s) that include the fire damage, your subsequent Blood Shields will be larger than if they included only the melee attacks at that time. The amount of damage that the extra avoidance reduces, however, remains the same.

Put another way, at 120% Mastery you are removing 34.8% of each breath's worth of damage from your total physical damage taken when you get hit by it. Also consider the old Stamina vs Avoidance argument in which the ultimate trump card was that you can't dodge a fireball. Avoidance has no effect on your total damage taken when magic damage is a factor. Mastery, however, does. In principle alone it should be superior.

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Old 01/03/11, 6:25 AM   #114
Tyvi
Never, Mags. Never!
 
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Human Death Knight
 
Turalyon (EU)
The thing that annoys me about the DK mastery is it requires your Death Strikes to actually connect which in turn means you want some healthy amount of expertise and hit. Avoidance stackers can largely ignore those stats because landing a DS at the right time is much less important to them than mastery stackers. Even with 26 expertise and 7% hit I still run into situations where I get parried 3 or 4 times in a row and lose a huge Blood Shield chance (Cho'gall connecting twice in a row with Worship buffs up for example).

Gearing for avoidance also plays nicely with Dancing Rune Weapon since that ability gets better the more you have and that gearing method is also less affected by bad play, below-average RE procs etc because that survival is largely passive.

The advantage mastery has is that you can use DS as form of mini cooldowns better than if you geared for avoidance since you can save your runes for that occasion (see any boss that doesn't hit hard most of the time but has periods where he gets a damage buff or something) and obviously any bosses with (burst) magical damage.

Personally I am running mastery/stamina heavy because I like DSing more reactively and the stamina helps with Rune Tap, Death Pact, min DS heals, (glyphed!) AMS and indirectely with Lichborne (you can use it when you are lower on health since LB tends you cap your health most of the time anyway). The fact that I also do a big amount of interrupting in our 10 man raids also mitigates the blow of having more hit than I'd otherwise want just for keeping aggro (which is probably around 0% <_<).
I am going to try full avoidance gemming next week and see how that works out with the Rune of SS and exp/hit reforged away completely.

Last edited by Tyvi : 01/03/11 at 6:33 AM.


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Old 01/03/11, 7:54 AM   #115
Lichloathe
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Darkspear
Update: Numbers have been re-run, here are results. In order to make things as favorable and intelligent as possible for Avoidance, I mixed Dodge/Parry rating increases based on which would yield the least hit from DR.

Damage Taken Base Delta Comparison
Baseline 5171272 0.00%  
+100 Mastery 5129135 0.81% 99.287%
+100 Dodge 5165993 0.10%  
+200 Mastery 5101615 1.35% 99.996%
+200 Dodge 5101828 1.34%  
+300 Mastery 5066266 2.03% 99.968%
+200 Dodge +100 Parry 5067913 2.00%  
+400 Mastery 5029729 2.74% 100.188%
+300 Dodge +100 Parry 5020292 2.92%  
+500 Mastery 4950213 4.27% 99.593%
+300 Dodge +200 Parry 4970456 3.88%  

I'm fairly impressed that avoidance scales at essentially the same rate as Mastery does. Again, all of the differences here are so minor that they could easily be written off as margin for error. It appears that Mastery and Avoidance are functionally equivalent to each other, but only when 100% of the boss's damage can be Dodged or Parried (given the previous discussion of Mastery and Magic damage).

I'd say it's conclusive that Mastery is superior to Avoidance for all intents and purposes.

Last edited by Lichloathe : 01/03/11 at 12:00 PM.

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Old 01/03/11, 2:13 PM   #116
Shareth
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Tarren Mill (EU)
I don't think you take into account hit/expertise requirement of mastery - most mastery people keep capped hit/expertise while avoidance people reforge it all into avoidance. So to make it more correct you should substract at least half the rating needed to cap hit/expertise from mastery or add those values to avoidance.

Also I think it will be better to simulate increases in both stats at once since increase in avoidance should (theoretically) decrease value of mastery. I'd do something like this - add X to avoidance, add 2X to mastery, sim; add X to mastery, add 2X to avoidance, sim. Of course this x2 multiplier came out of nowhere but I think this way it should be more close to how our ratings gonna increase.

Author of DKM.

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Old 01/03/11, 2:36 PM   #117
Gort
Don Flamenco
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Hyjal
Originally Posted by Lichloathe View Post
The larger shield you get from healing the magic damage reduces subsequent physical damage.

To make the scenario simple, call it a dragon that sometimes breathes fire on you. The simulation results show that, if you ignore the breath entirely, you will take 1% less damage by increasing your Mastery than you would by increasing your Avoidance by an equivalent amount of Rating.

Once you add the breath into the equation, however, the amount of damage that the extra Mastery reduces goes up because for the Death Strike(s) that include the fire damage, your subsequent Blood Shields will be larger than if they included only the melee attacks at that time. The amount of damage that the extra avoidance reduces, however, remains the same.

Put another way, at 120% Mastery you are removing 34.8% of each breath's worth of damage from your total physical damage taken when you get hit by it. Also consider the old Stamina vs Avoidance argument in which the ultimate trump card was that you can't dodge a fireball. Avoidance has no effect on your total damage taken when magic damage is a factor. Mastery, however, does. In principle alone it should be superior.

While you can't dodge a fireball, and I'm in general agreement with the guaranteed next-hit reduction vs avoidance chance argument, it doesn't sit well for me to say that in a mixed environment, avoidance has NO effect. Unfortunately, this puts me in the unenviable position of arguing against a simulation. Looking at the numbers, however, and taking into account the 100% physical aspect, I do have to agree, mastery outweighs avoidance, at least until we run into something silly and unlikely like a Hydross-style elemental damage melee boss.

This doesn't look like a Wrath-style "stack at all costs" scenario, however. Do you have numbers for/against a generalised balanced gemming/enchanting approach, but getting Mastery wherever you see a yellow slot/available enchant? That would seem the best route, especially in a low tier where we're not continually flirting with the DR cap, as we were last expansion, but as I said, I hate arguing with a machine, because it's normally right.

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Old 01/03/11, 2:43 PM   #118
Draginclaw
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Death Knight
 
Thunderlord
Originally Posted by Lichloathe View Post
I'd say it's conclusive that Mastery is superior to Avoidance for all intents and purposes.
On a 1:1 basis I'd agree but Mastery needs hit/expertise to function at it's maximum potential. I've tried gearing each way (mastery w/hit and expertise AND avoidance) and I found that avoidance seemed to work better for raids (some fights seem to favor it). I was unable to cap hit and expertise without going out of my way (gemming/enchanting) and that just didn't seem logical to me. Maybe once I get in heroic raid gear it will be easier to reach the caps but it was far easier to reforge to avoidance and not worry about hit and expertise with current gear at the start of Cata.

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Old 01/03/11, 3:03 PM   #119
Lichloathe
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Darkspear
Originally Posted by Gort View Post
While you can't dodge a fireball, and I'm in general agreement with the guaranteed next-hit reduction vs avoidance chance argument, it doesn't sit well for me to say that in a mixed environment, avoidance has NO effect. Unfortunately, this puts me in the unenviable position of arguing against a simulation. Looking at the numbers, however, and taking into account the 100% physical aspect, I do have to agree, mastery outweighs avoidance, at least until we run into something silly and unlikely like a Hydross-style elemental damage melee boss.
Avoidance doesn't have no effect in a mixed damage environment. Obviously it still reduces melee damage, but when you add magic damage, the amount of damage that Mastery mitigates is higher. Avoidance remains the same.

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Old 01/03/11, 11:26 PM   #120
Lichloathe
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Darkspear
Originally Posted by Shareth View Post
I don't think you take into account hit/expertise requirement of mastery - most mastery people keep capped hit/expertise while avoidance people reforge it all into avoidance. So to make it more correct you should substract at least half the rating needed to cap hit/expertise from mastery or add those values to avoidance.
Originally Posted by Draginclaw View Post
On a 1:1 basis I'd agree but Mastery needs hit/expertise to function at it's maximum potential. I've tried gearing each way (mastery w/hit and expertise AND avoidance) and I found that avoidance seemed to work better for raids (some fights seem to favor it). I was unable to cap hit and expertise without going out of my way (gemming/enchanting) and that just didn't seem logical to me. Maybe once I get in heroic raid gear it will be easier to reach the caps but it was far easier to reforge to avoidance and not worry about hit and expertise with current gear at the start of Cata.
Thanks to the upgrades I made, I can now run significantly larger sample sizes when I make use of my work machine, so, these results are from the average of 500 eight minute fights each. I'm lazy, so I used the default stats other than Hit and Expertise. There are two passes - One with Hit and Expertise soft cap, and one with 0 Hit and 0 Expertise.

 Average Damage Taken
At Cap4,740,900
At Zero4,789,827
Increase1.03%

It looks like your hypothesis is wrong. As respectfully as possible, if you want to dispute this further, download BloodSim, plug numbers, and run the results yourself. That's why I wrote it and made it public. Anecdotes are adorable, but have no value. I'm open to being proven wrong, but I'm not going to do all the work for you.

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