Unholy DPS | Cataclysm 4.0.6, The Missing Frame - Page 15

Lamperouqe · 02/01/11, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by MjollnirBF

The main thing i was trying to bring up was that since Contagion is useless on single target fights, would it be more beneficial to take those points out of it and place them so that you end up with a 7/1/33 build?

If you have the luxury to run with 2 DPS builds, then it goes without saying that you would want to have one without Contagion and one with it. Although if you can only run with a single DPS build, I wouldn't take points from it considering all the fights in Cataclysm which include secondary targets or target switching.

Originally Posted by Murdoque

So assuming no time lost and every BT used right on CD, you only get 1 additional SS every 1 minute, not 1 every 30 seconds.

Exactly, though you don't use your BT on every cooldown like that in most cases. Sometimes you don't need it since you're already GCD capped at that moment and sometimes you don't want to use it at that moment to not mess up your runes. You also need to take into account that using BT on a half refreshed rune doesn't equal an extra SS, more like half an SS. As I mentioned before it's a very situational skill. Things like these are hard to take into account when determining the value of imp. BT.

Shinjae · 02/03/11, 9:55 AM

If you have the luxury to run with 2 DPS builds, then it goes without saying that you would want to have one without Contagion and one with it. Although if you can only run with a single DPS build, I wouldn't take points from it considering all the fights in Cataclysm which include secondary targets or target switching.

Some of us have the luxury to run with two dps builds and I have been thinking about a single target build to use other than what was posted above that would increase survivability. 9/0/32 would drop all points from Contagion and put two points into Blade Barrier giving us 4% decreased damage. There are a great deal of fights currently that do not require us to do AoE damage. 4% damage decrease doesn't seem like much but on fights such as Nef when we are on the pillars taking damage it would be beneficial to the healer mana wise and make the third phase transition a little bit smoother. The Elemental Monstrosity is another boss which this decrease in damage can be a god send. I figure that the longer we are in the fight the better and more damage we will contribute to downing the boss. As far as boss fights which include target switching and secondary targets, I can only think of a few. Those being Conclave where we down the adds before jumping to Nezir. Cho'gal in the last phase where we are on add duty but even then, those worms die so fast your dots will only tick a couple times. Halfus for the drakes. Maloriak for the aberations. So thats pretty much four bosses out of the twelve on normal. There are possibilities such as Al'Akir for the stormlings but getting too close to them is kind of dangerous which is why ranged dps usually handles them. You also have Omitron defenses where you could spread your diseases if the two of the bosses group up but it is a dangerous move and can wipe the raid so spreding diseases isn't the best idea. I could see spreading if you were not targeted by the oozes that spawn, but they drop so fast it really isn't worth it. I guess you could also do it on Nef but why would you want to break cc on adds in the first phase and possible pull aggro off the kiter in the third phase.

Lamperouqe · 02/03/11, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by Shinjae

As far as boss fights which include target switching and secondary targets, I can only think of a few.

It is fine to run only with a Contagionless build if you want to respec for the bosses which require AoE, but I wouldn't recommend anyone to run the whole content with a Contagionless build. The benefits of a Contagionless build are minuscule compared to the benefits of a build with it overall, which is what I was trying to say. Either run with Contagion, Contagionless (while respeccing for some fights) or both.

I don't understand your argument about Omnitron. I always switch by Pestilencing when a new boss activates if it is in range and even if I don't get very many ticks in I Pestilence the oozes either way for Ebon Plague. As for Al'Akir and it being dangerous to go close to the stormlings, they often spawn on melee, which is when I spread my diseases to apply Ebon Plague and help bringing them down a bit with my dots. Also on Cho'gall many guilds use a tactic to bring the big adds to melee for some cleaving before taking them to the spot they want to spawn the pool at.

Shinjae · 02/03/11, 12:22 PM

It is fine to run only with a Contagionless build if you want to respec for the bosses which require AoE, but I wouldn't recommend anyone to run the whole content with a Contagionless build. The benefits of a Contagionless build are minuscule compared to the benefits of a build with it overall, which is what I was trying to say. Either run with Contagion, Contagionless (while respeccing for some fights) or both.

Yeah I do not recommend running contagionless either throughout the whole content. I am just saying that if your guild has you labeled as a straight DPS DK then this type of switching can be possible. It is kind of like a tank running a single target type build and an AoE/add tank type build that way they can fit whatever job their GM asks them to do.

I don't understand your argument about Omnitron. I always switch by Pestilencing when a new boss activates if it is in range and even if I don't get very many ticks in I Pestilence the oozes either way for Ebon Plague. As for Al'Akir and it being dangerous to go close to the stormlings, they often spawn on melee, which is when I spread my diseases to apply Ebon Plague and help bringing them down a bit with my dots. Also on Cho'gall many guilds use a tactic to bring the big adds to melee for some cleaving before taking them to the spot they want to spawn the pool at.

I appologize for not making myself clear with Omitron. It is fine to pestilence off your existing diseases but I have seen some DK's refresh disease on the origianl target, pestilence and then switch so I was trying to eliminate that mistake that some people might possibly do. Just with my play style I tend to just stick to single target each boss till they reach 53 energy and then make the switch making sure not to refresh diseases on the original target which could lead to a wipe if not careful.

Stormling wise I have only had them spawn on myself and and the other melee once in the few times that we have downed Al'Akir. Don't know if it is a bug but we keep ourselves decently distanced but within healer range during that phase. Will need a few more weeks to test that out but for that one time that it spawned on us we were only 8 yrds away. Once we went 10-12 yards away the stormlings never spawned on us.

On Cho'gall when the big add spawns all of our melee leave cho'gall and run to the side it spawns from while the off tank brings it to the back of the room. Once add is down we drop dnds in a straight line back to the boss (running with 3 dps DK's and 1 DK tank) and ranged switches to the oozes. We rinse and repeat.

Sonrisa · 02/03/11, 1:42 PM

Originally Posted by Shinjae

I appologize for not making myself clear with Omitron. It is fine to pestilence off your existing diseases but I have seen some DK's refresh disease on the origianl target, pestilence and then switch so I was trying to eliminate that mistake that some people might possibly do. Just with my play style I tend to just stick to single target each boss till they reach 53 energy and then make the switch making sure not to refresh diseases on the original target which could lead to a wipe if not careful.

How is that a mistake? The only shield that you don't want to have diseases while it's up is Magmatron's but all others you are just losing DPS by not refreshing or letting them drop early.

Shinjae · 02/03/11, 1:51 PM

How is that a mistake? The only shield that you don't want to have diseases while it's up is Magmatron's but all others you are just losing DPS by not refreshing or letting them drop early.

Because I have personally wiped the raid after dots ticked while Arcanotrons shield was up and got lit up over vent for it so I added it to my list of stuff not to do. If you aren't saved for the week try it.

Diello · 02/03/11, 2:37 PM

Originally Posted by Shinjae

Because I have personally wiped the raid after dots ticked while Arcanotrons shield was up and got lit up over vent for it so I added it to my list of stuff not to do. If you aren't saved for the week try it.

This was hotfixed back in mid December and a close look at logs shows only direct attacks stacking Converted Power.

Shinjae · 02/03/11, 2:51 PM

This was hotfixed back in mid December and a close look at logs shows only direct attacks stacking Converted Power.

I will definitely try this again next week and will post the logs because this happened to me last week and we are already saved this week. If it doesn't stack then there must be some other damage thrown in there. A thought just occured to me. Last week I switched to DW frost so it could have been Howling Blast that caused the Converted Power to stack. Promptly switched back to unholy this week because I wasn't doing well DPS wise but was still in the same mind set that diseases caused the Converted Power to stack so I didn't refresh the diseases on the original target.

Diello · 02/03/11, 3:42 PM

I was just doing this analysis for my own guild so I figured I might as well check your last WoL as well. Here's what triggered the 5 stacks in your last kill.

[18:48:52.655] Ikillyou Ice Lance Arcanotron *13159* (Which he then stole)
[18:48:56.074] Ikillyou Ice Lance Arcanotron 7162 (Again immediately stolen)

[18:51:49.880] Swashbuckler hits Arcanotron 4657
[18:51:53.460] Swashbuckler crits Arcanotron *8146*
[18:51:57.813] Swashbuckler hits Arcanotron 3814

So, you had a mage buffing himself and your bear tank attacking into the shield. Nothing to do with DoTs or pets.

Indyy · 02/05/11, 7:39 PM

Originally Posted by Shinjae

Yeah I do not recommend running contagionless either throughout the whole content. I am just saying that if your guild has you labeled as a straight DPS DK then this type of switching can be possible. It is kind of like a tank running a single target type build and an AoE/add tank type build that way they can fit whatever job their GM asks them to do.

I appologize for not making myself clear with Omitron. It is fine to pestilence off your existing diseases but I have seen some DK's refresh disease on the origianl target, pestilence and then switch so I was trying to eliminate that mistake that some people might possibly do. Just with my play style I tend to just stick to single target each boss till they reach 53 energy and then make the switch making sure not to refresh diseases on the original target which could lead to a wipe if not careful.

Stormling wise I have only had them spawn on myself and and the other melee once in the few times that we have downed Al'Akir. Don't know if it is a bug but we keep ourselves decently distanced but within healer range during that phase. Will need a few more weeks to test that out but for that one time that it spawned on us we were only 8 yrds away. Once we went 10-12 yards away the stormlings never spawned on us.

On Cho'gall when the big add spawns all of our melee leave cho'gall and run to the side it spawns from while the off tank brings it to the back of the room. Once add is down we drop dnds in a straight line back to the boss (running with 3 dps DK's and 1 DK tank) and ranged switches to the oozes. We rinse and repeat.

You mention pestilencing off your diseases in order to switch to the next target on Omnitron. I remember reading, or hearing, that the only reason people wipe the raids through damage after the boss has reached 50 energy is through direct damage, not passive (dot damage). Would this allow death knights to simply use pestilence any time one of the other bosses is near during that fight? As far as I can tell, pestilence merely spreads the diseases on your current target and modifys it's damage through Contagion. There is no direct damage.

I'll be testing this next week. However. I was wondering if anyone has tried this and can confirm if it is valid?

bludfrost · 02/05/11, 7:46 PM

Originally Posted by Indyy

You mention pestilencing off your diseases in order to switch to the next target on Omnitron. I remember reading, or hearing, that the only reason people wipe the raids through damage after the boss has reached 50 energy is through direct damage, not passive (dot damage). Would this allow death knights to simply use pestilence any time one of the other bosses is near during that fight? As far as I can tell, pestilence merely spreads the diseases on your current target and modifys it's damage through Contagion. There is no direct damage.

I'll be testing this next week. However. I was wondering if anyone has tried this and can confirm if it is valid?

Using Pestilence causes no direct damage whatsoever and applying diseases with pestilence or outbreak cause no direct damage. Pestilence is good for fights like this because if you pestilence your diseases onto the new boss that pops, you can keep doing it for an added 50% disease damage, so you pretty much have this increase throughout the entire encounter (correct me if i'm wrong). Using pestilence simply whenever a previous boss is near may not be optimal, however, as it is only DoT damage, and that rune could probably go to better use with a SS or FeS for as short as that boss is active.

This is also why, if possible, for any encounter with adds, you can try to pestilence your diseases from the adds back onto the boss.

Wonderbrah · 02/05/11, 9:41 PM

Originally Posted by bludfrost

Using Pestilence causes no direct damage whatsoever and applying diseases with pestilence or outbreak cause no direct damage. Pestilence is good for fights like this because if you pestilence your diseases onto the new boss that pops, you can keep doing it for an added 50% disease damage, so you pretty much have this increase throughout the entire encounter (correct me if i'm wrong). Using pestilence simply whenever a previous boss is near may not be optimal, however, as it is only DoT damage, and that rune could probably go to better use with a SS or FeS for as short as that boss is active.

This is also why, if possible, for any encounter with adds, you can try to pestilence your diseases from the adds back onto the boss.

I dont think this is true, pestilence spreads our diseases at 50% of their normal potency. Contagion increases our disease damage spread via pestilence by 100%, which would make them the same damage as if we put them on manually e.g. Outbreak or IT+PS.

But I could be wrong.

bludfrost · 02/06/11, 1:26 AM

Originally Posted by Wonderbrah

I dont think this is true, pestilence spreads our diseases at 50% of their normal potency. Contagion increases our disease damage spread via pestilence by 100%, which would make them the same damage as if we put them on manually e.g. Outbreak or IT+PS.

But I could be wrong.

Ah you're right here. But using Pestilence in place of a strike still seems inferior as the boss you're spreading to is only active for so long anyway. Only real bet if you're really looking to squeeze every ounce is having Outbreak up before you switch and re-applying that way, which has already been discussed.

Kairal · 02/06/11, 2:09 PM

Originally Posted by bludfrost

Ah you're right here. But using Pestilence in place of a strike still seems inferior as the boss you're spreading to is only active for so long anyway. Only real bet if you're really looking to squeeze every ounce is having Outbreak up before you switch and re-applying that way, which has already been discussed.

I think it comes down to most effective use of runes here. Outbreak would be ideally since you wouldn't have to use any runes to reapply diseases and thus could use it on more effective strikes for damage. But in the case that OT isn't up and we want to get diseases from one boss to another on the Omnotron fight (or any fight revolving around adds), I'd assume Pestilence would be better in terms of squeezing out damage? The amount of damage via Pestilence and SS seems a little higher than IT + SS. And in keeping in mind that rune efficiency, it seems better as you'd using a blood rune and converting it to a death rune as oppose to just using a frost rune.

Damyou · 02/06/11, 4:59 PM

Originally Posted by bludfrost

Ah you're right here. But using Pestilence in place of a strike still seems inferior as the boss you're spreading to is only active for so long anyway. Only real bet if you're really looking to squeeze every ounce is having Outbreak up before you switch and re-applying that way, which has already been discussed.

This entirely depends on how many ticks you're expecting to get out of the boss before it goes inactive and therefore takes no further damage.

For the specific example of the omnitron defense system you're looking at 30 seconds of disease ticks before the shielded boss goes inactive and without even doing maths i'm pretty sure the single strike cost is massively out-weighed by that many disease ticks.

Well worth it if your guild uses a tactic where the individual mobs are tanked close enough to pesti between when the new one goes active.