The SI/DT nerf is between a 2% (1 - 106/108) and 12% (1 - 160/180) ghoul nerf; most likely around 10ish, depending on how well you are at quickly stacking it back up after DT falls. DC is, of course, a simple 15% drop. About a 4.5% dps loss overall, give or take half a percent.

I'll do new stat weights tomorrow, but strength, haste, and mastery will all be down, expertise will be up, and crit will likely be the same. We're talking very minor shifts, though, and you won't see any stats trading places. In fact, BiS lists are almost certain to be the same, and you'll probably gear/reforge/gem/etc no differently then as you would now.

The big question is, of course, whether or not Frost overtakes Unholy, to which the answer is almost certainly not. In the sim, perhaps, but highly unlikely in actual play, due to all the already well-known cons of Frost (in terms of reality verse theory) and the well-known pros of Unholy (in terms of reality verse theory).

Do we have any in game confirmation whether this nerf was 5% (15% total nerf from 4.0.3) or a straight 15% reduction on top of the previous 10% nerf (23.5% total nerf from 4.0.3 damage)?

Since it's a new patch, and it doesn't say 'down to' or 'to' I'm guessing it's a straight 15% reduction:
"Death Coil damage has been reduced by 15%."

Well, for what its worth, my death coil hit damage from twilight bastion on 2/8, averaged across V&T and twilight council, was 10777 with a ~800 damage spread. In BWD on 2/9, averaged across chimaeron, maloriak, atramedes, and nef, death coil hits averaged 10112 with a ~500 damage spread.

So, on average, a roughly 6% reduction. Taking into account RNG, I'd say a 5% further nerf is more likely than a 15% nerf. However there is the small chance that the hotfix wasn't actually in yet when I was doing BWD, making the above results purely RNG related, and the real 15% nerf is yet to come. I will need to take a look at pet damage between 2/8 and 2/9 to be more confident that the hotfix was actually in, but based on observations of my single target dps (~8% lower) I think it was.

Now, it's 5 am, so excuse me if I sound a little crazy, but in reference to our AoE priority, the OP gives this as our suggested priority:

"Diseases > Dark Transformation > Death and Decay > SS if both Unholy and/or all Death runes are up > BB + IT if both pairs of Blood and Frost runes are up >
DC if SD, 100 RP, will overcap RP with anything else or if RC isn’t up > SS > BB + IT > DC > HoW."

I'm not sure on the numbers because, seeing as I have not slept my brain just isn't working like it should and, frankly I just don't have access to raid buffs or a reliable raiding situation to test this in, but it would seem to me that our AoE rotation would be a lot less awkward and frustrating if it went something like:

Diseases > DT > D&D > FeS if blood / frost runes are up > BB if all death runes are up > SS if both unholy runes are up >
DC if SD, 100 RP, will overcap RP with anything else or if RC isn’t up > BB > SS > FeS> DC > HoW

What you lose per cycle (FeS > Death rune cycle, 2 rune refreshes in other words):
-2 icy touches.
-4 Scourge Strikes.

What you gain:
-Two Festering Strikes.
-4 Blood Boils.

In a situation where you're dropping single target for AoE, there's probably enough adds that Blood Boil is a DPS increased over Scourge Strike. Festering Strike, no questions asked hits harder than Icy Touch.

I don't see how this is possibly worse in a situation with at least 3 adds (most AOE situations) and given some quick target dummy tests I'm skeptical that it wouldn't be better in situations with just 2 adds as well, and I am genuinely shocked that it has not been brought up before now.

One thing to consider: Switching to this will make the rotation more up and down in terms of burst but at the same time, give you less snappy on demand AoE burst which is fairly important for certain fights (Maloriak, I'm looking at you).

Am I missing something here or have we all somehow missed this for months?




EDIT: It was late when I wrote this the runes you switch are not the ones I listed here, you actually end up trading:
4 IT for 2 Festering Strike.

Additionally, this rotation would be done in Unholy Presence, not FP as the rotation described in the OP is.

Wanted to mention that Alchemy also has the Volatile Alchemist Stone now in addition to flasks. With the socket + socket bonus, it's at 351 strength. With Mastery's movement up the tree preference tree, I believe that puts this a bit ahead of Darkmoon Card: Hurricane pre raid. Additionally, it's extremely easy to obtain compared to the Darkmoon Card: Hurricane, assuming you have an Alchemist :-p

Just wanted to bring it up since it wasn't listed as a benefit on the main post under Alchemy.

I was curious about the same thing. In my initial analysis I looked at one whole night vs another and the problem with that is various buffs/debuffs during diff encounters that can skew numbers. We were working on Maloriak this week and so I figured lots of wipes on the same boss would be best for analysis. Here's what i found.

2/8/11 death coil dmg:
# of hits - 338, avg dmg per hit - 9750.3
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

2/10/11 death coil dmg:
# of hits - 432, avg dmg per hit - 9196.6
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

9196.6/9750.3 = .9432 or a 5.68% difference

This is the same encounter, same player, similar raid comp side from one player. It looks more like a 5% nerf here than 15%. I would encourage anyone else who had lots of HM attempts on the same boss to post as well so we can eliminate encounter specific variables that might skew numbers.

I'll confirm that I've been seeing this change as well. The pet's energy hasn't been reaching 80+ like it use to. I've also done the same test of allowing the pet to start attacking away at the dummy. Also tested to see if the energy was going above while he was under Dark Transformation and he still was utilizing his energy whenever available.

There's a reason why the priority comes with an explanation below. If you had read it, it basically says BB is a lot more DPS when there's multiple adds (which means you use it whenever possible), and that leaves you with a free frost rune which you spend on IT, replacing every would be FeS in a single target rotation with BB+IT. Obviously any leftover death runes from before would be used on BB and using IT+BB you are not generating any death runes.

So the right question should have been: is 2 IT worth more than a FeS? The answer is no. However you have to take into account factors such as how long the adds will live. If they are going to die before you get those 2 death runes from your FeS then you are better off with IT+BB. If they will live long enough, then sure FeS + 2x BB wins over 2xIT + 2xBB, and it also helps with GCD since we are capped in Frost Presence. However, IT+BB has uses in disease refreshing during prolonged AoE situations such as Heroic Maloriak, so it' would be worth it to use IT+BB sometime during the rotation for that purpose.

Well, I have indeed read it and I think it was pretty clear that I understand that BB is a lot more DPS on multiple adds, that doesn't necessarily mean you use it whenever possible. As I mentioned in the original post: In the span of two cycles, you'll get the same number of blood boils hence, the same blood boil damage DESPITE the fact that one rotation uses it ASAP and one does not.

In an AoE situation you will be using pestilence anyway, the disease portion of IT would then be insignificant, because you should be pestilencing diseases to secondary targets anyway, IT just doesn't hit that hard without considering the disease portion for even two of them to be more powerful than a festering strike.


I apologize in that I was unclear: This suggested rotation should be performed in Unholy Presence (and in fact uses the same number of GCDs as UP).

You should never ever use IT to refresh diseases in an aoe situation. That's what Pestilence is for. If you are using pestilence properly, you will keep the diseases up just about indefinitely. In a very quick burst situation I can see BB+IT pulling ahead only because you need it on demand and this particular rotation needs time to set up runes.

But especially in a prolonged AoE situation of the kind you cite I can not believe that an awkard FP rotation which loses FeS on a one to one basis with IT of all things will pull ahead - it's ludicrous. If you don't need to burst right freaking now, this rotation is the clear winner.

EDIT: Also in my original post I was incorrect about the trade off (you'll have to forgive me, it was five am and I was tired. The overall message of the post still stands though), the trade off is:
IT x 4 in the OPs rotation, Frost Presence.
FOR
FeS x 2, unholy presence (faster rune regeneration and all that jazz for the sustained aoe you mentioned).

If you are using FeS as I've been discussing your diseases will stay on your primary target until 1 of two things occurs:
1. Outbreak is up because FeS has extended the duration of diseases, just like in normal single target (you use the exact same number of FeS this way as the standard single target priority).
2. Your target is dead. Clever use of pestilence will ensure disease up time on secondary targets, and this would be a problem both priorities would have to deal with anyway. I really don't see what your talking about.
Making use of FeS and Pest properly you should NEVER have to IT or PS unless new adds are introduced and your diseases somehow fall off your other targets (which shouldn't happen if your using Pest right).

Now, part of what you're saying makes it seem like you aren't understanding what I'm proposing exactly:

This situation will NEVER arise in my proposed priority system. You should never have a frost rune, because every time the frost rune comes up, it's paired with a blood rune and used on FeS in order to produce death runes for BB. In my proposed aoe priority there are no unused runes, just like in our single target priority. In fact, we use the exact same number of GCDs as we would single target, which is why we would continue to run in UP as opposed to FP.

Using the priority system in the OP, yes FP is probably better than UP. Using the rotation I've suggested, I very much doubt it for the same reasons single target unholy runs in UP, so does this AoE priority. I would like to see some numbers and testing on your end regarding the tests you done.

I will run some tests at some point this weekend as well and post numbers ASAP.