Frost DPS | Cataclysm 4.0.6, This Is My Life - Page 11

Wardoc · 01/12/11, 2:18 PM

Is anyone else having issues with Killing machine? When it procs and you use oblit or FS they don't crit? Is this a bug and if so where can I find info on it? I have tried to Google it and been over the battle.net forums but cant find it.

Anuta · 01/12/11, 2:25 PM

Originally Posted by Wardoc

Is anyone else having issues with Killing machine? When it procs and you use oblit or FS they don't crit? Is this a bug and if so where can I find info on it? I have tried to Google it and been over the battle.net forums but cant find it.

Actually I been noticing this happen but have not had a chance to address this fully. I thought it was just screen lag but it sounds like this should be addressed on the wow bug report forum.

Wardoc · 01/12/11, 2:54 PM

Originally Posted by Anuta

Actually I been noticing this happen but have not had a chance to address this fully. I thought it was just screen lag but it sounds like this should be addressed on the wow bug report forum.

I just posted on the bug forums, lets see what happens /shrug

AtheistGod · 01/12/11, 3:55 PM

Originally Posted by Lciee

Just some quick napkin math from a top WoL parse:

2/2 IBT provides roughly 1 extra obliterate in our rotation every 30 seconds. Looking at parses for Chimaeron Frost DK's are using 10.67 Obliterates per 30 seconds.Without IBT that would drop to 9.67 Obliterates every 30 seconds netting a rough loss of 25k damage every 30 seconds. Diseases on the same log are providing 85.6k damage every 30 seconds. If that is improved by 30% that is a gain of 25.6k dmg.

Seems that 2/2 IBT is a better gain over 3/3 Virulence however it is hard to day how these both will scale with better gear and mastery on Frost Fever.

2/2 IBT provides 1 extra Obliterate every 2 minutes, not every 30 seconds. In 2 minutes Blood Tap would normally provide 1 Obliterate and improved will provide 2. However, I see no reason to drop it. Epidemic is where the points for Virulence will come from. Using a rough value of 15 seconds for Epidemic, stronger than it actually is, would mean 1 extra Unholy Rune every 3 minutes if Rime procs every 30 seconds. If You ignore Rime it comes out to 1 extra Obliterate every 3 minutes. Even with a 3 sec buff to it and ignoring Rime procs altogether, Epidemic doesn't beat or even match IBT. Using the log you mentioned, 2/2 IBT provides about 60k more damage over the course of the fight, 3/3 Virulence would provide about 90k over the course of the fight. This means point for point they are rather close, although IBT does have the wasted points as well.

shopshopshop · 01/12/11, 4:17 PM

It's important to consider side bonuses to choosing IBT over Virulence. When you get dead spots due to bad RNG with RE, Blood Tap helps fill gaps where you would otherwise be doing nothing (especially helpful in AoE situations, where an extra HB is pretty significant). Also, if PoF comes off cooldown and you have a choice between (given a lack of available Frost Runes) FS and IBT->PoF, the latter is usually better.

Basically, IBT gives flexibility while Virulence is just static damage.

Thyrial · 01/12/11, 9:27 PM

Originally Posted by shopshopshop

It's important to consider side bonuses to choosing IBT over Virulence. When you get dead spots due to bad RNG with RE, Blood Tap helps fill gaps where you would otherwise be doing nothing (especially helpful in AoE situations, where an extra HB is pretty significant). Also, if PoF comes off cooldown and you have a choice between (given a lack of available Frost Runes) FS and IBT->PoF, the latter is usually better.

Basically, IBT gives flexibility while Virulence is just static damage.

The problem there though is that you can't really use IBT reactively. The longer the ability sits off cd without being used, the less DPS the talent is worth. Most of those situations would only be helped by IBT if it happened to come off CD at the same time one of those uses was plausible. The talent basically gives you the choice of using it as a DPS boost or as additional flexibility, it very rarely can be both.

As shown earlier, if you use it pretty much perfectly (meaning only for additional Oblits), IBT is around the same dps increase as Virulence. However it can't always be used perfectly and for various reasons BT could sit off CD for awhile without being used which overall decreases it's dps value.

Really the way I see it they will both be perfectly viable options, Virulence will be the more reliable DPS boost while IBT has similar albeit less reliable DPS potential while also giving the possibility of extra flexibility.

Baphomette · 01/13/11, 6:36 PM

Originally Posted by Kahdrick

I know that not every DK is called on to interrupt on every cooldown, but I usually am in my raids, and as such 2/2 Mind Freeze is worth more dps (20 RP every 10 seconds) than 2/2 Imp Frost Presence (I dps in UH Prez, so the damage buff is zero, and the RP gain appears to be much less than 20 RP / 10 sec. Does anyone have the math on how much RP per 10 seconds the 4% increase in generation actually comes out to? My sample size is exceptionally small, so I want to make sure I'm not just completely wrong here.

4% increase is very small, but it adds up. iFP adds much less to "off-presence" than iBP and iUP, but nothing else in the tree adds anything at all so unless you need OaPH or Chilblains you may as well keep it. If there were something else in the tree worth picking up then yes, iFP would be the first points I would drop, even before EW.

I'm getting the KM non-crits as well, and I've noticed it on trash in heroics so I don't believe it's a matter of boss' crit reduction. Is it possible it's a 2H issue?

Kaejin · 01/13/11, 7:17 PM

I just sat on a training dummy for about 12 minutes using my tanking 2h weapon and using KM procs as they popped up on Oblit and FS without encountering a single non-crit that wasn't a miss (due to being under hit cap from using a 2h). How often are you seeing this happen?

ovlaM · 01/13/11, 7:20 PM

The only non-crits I've personally seen with a KM proc come from partial blocks, which can never crit as far as I know.

Tyvi · 01/13/11, 7:39 PM

Originally Posted by ovlaM

The only non-crits I've personally seen with a KM proc come from partial blocks, which can never crit afaik.

I think I have seen crits getting blocked by NPCs from players before just fine. What you are probably confusing it with is that an NPC cannot crit a player on a block roll but it is possible the way around (and in PvP scenarios).

The theory that KM adds +100% crit before crit suppression also seems a bit off considering that players should have around 5-10% crit from gear anyway to negate that.

Kahdrick · 01/13/11, 7:53 PM

Originally Posted by Kaejin

I just sat on a training dummy for about 12 minutes using my tanking 2h weapon and using KM procs as they popped up on Oblit and FS without encountering a single non-crit that wasn't a miss (due to being under hit cap from using a 2h). How often are you seeing this happen?

I usually see about one every 10 minutes of continuous fighting (so about one per boss fight). These are hits that definitely consume the KM proc but only do normal damage. Most of the ones I've seen come when I'm behind the boss, so there's no chance it's a block, partial or otherwise.

AtheistGod · 01/13/11, 8:52 PM

I've reproduced the KM hits on the training dummy. Only using FS with KM I've gotten two separate occurrences of a Frost Strike with 1 hand critting and the other only being a hit, in 100 Frost Strikes. This was done with a 0.92% base crit chance.

Did another 300 Frost Strikes with 7.15% crit chance and didn't see a KM hit.

Kaejin · 01/14/11, 2:33 PM

Death Eater (the 4 piece t11 bonus) seems to stack twice when you use Blood Strike as DW. I assume this is once for each Blood Strike (main hand and off hand), since using Pest will only generate one stack and using Blood Strike with one weapon or a 2h weapon will only generate one stack.

Netukka · 01/20/11, 3:58 PM

Are the approximate DPS numbers in the first post dated? After hitting the raid dummy known as H-Chimaeron for around 3 hours, I was averaging around 17k (+-2k) dps on each attempt on full 359 geared DW frost DK. I really cant see how the hit debuff is severe enough to warrant a 5k dps loss compared to the simmed result and still a few thousand behind once you consider bad rng.

I really cant see how much I can actually be doing wrong (except for maybe not using Golembloods each attempt), you could practically do the boss while sleeping.

sp00n · 01/20/11, 6:59 PM

DPS on Chimaeron fluctuates heavily, at least for me. On one try I had 10% misses, on another only 1.3%. Also, depending on your strat, you may eat parries during the Feud phase, which further reduces DPS.
Also, DPS on wipes tends to be lower due to missing buffs/debuffs on the target.

That being said, I have no clue how accurate the values are. On WoL, the highest frost DK is ranked with 19k DPS.