Frost DPS | Cataclysm 4.0.6, This Is My Life - Page 22

dunkelhaar · 03/04/11, 4:37 AM

I ran some simulations using the latest SimC Build (406-9).

Frost 2H Unholy Presence: Simulationcraft Results
Frost DW Frost Presence: Simulationcraft Results
Frost DW Unholy Presence: Simulationcraft Results

As you can see, Frost DW UP tops Frost 2H by 2k dps putting us next to Arcane Mages. I know that a raid dummy test is not actually something people like to see, but can someone make some tests (I will when i get home)?

Niklas Höglund · 03/04/11, 8:19 AM

Does SimulationCraft take account of the extra runic power gained from being in frost presence? I didn't see this in the runic power gains pie chart.

Zimeron · 03/04/11, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by Niklas Höglund

Does SimulationCraft take account of the extra runic power gained from being in frost presence? I didn't see this in the runic power gains pie chart.

Yes it does, it's included with rune_abilities in 406-9. As of 406-10 (SVN), the extra runic power from Frost Presence and the talent Improved Frost Presence will be reported separately in the gains report.

thebitterfig · 03/04/11, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by dunkelhaar

As you can see, Frost DW UP tops Frost 2H by 2k dps putting us next to Arcane Mages. I know that a raid dummy test is not actually something people like to see, but can someone make some tests (I will when i get home)?

Something seems strange in the runic power generation. DW UP is generating a fair deal more RP than 2h, which doesn't really make sense to me. With Might of the Frozen Wastes, 2h ought to be generating more total RP, but the Runic generated by Rune Abilities for the DW test is significantly greater, something like 60% more. However, the average RP-per-Rune Ability is the same, while the total number of Rune Abilities is nearly doubled. Going back to the damage breakdowns, the uses of Obliterate between 2h and DW are about the same. Could it be that simc is generating RP for both the MH and OH parts of all the Oblits and Blood Strikes?

Zimeron · 03/04/11, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by thebitterfig

Something seems strange in the runic power generation. DW UP is generating a fair deal more RP than 2h, which doesn't really make sense to me. With Might of the Frozen Wastes, 2h ought to be generating more total RP, but the Runic generated by Rune Abilities for the DW test is significantly greater, something like 60% more. However, the average RP-per-Rune Ability is the same, while the total number of Rune Abilities is nearly doubled. Going back to the damage breakdowns, the uses of Obliterate between 2h and DW are about the same. Could it be that simc is generating RP for both the MH and OH parts of all the Oblits and Blood Strikes?

Running a debug of the report will show you that it's not granting extra Runic Power. Obliterate gains 20 RP from using two runes, 2 extra RP from Frost Presence, and then 10 from Chill of the Grave. If you're in Unholy Presence, you gain .8 runic power instead of 2.

I did find that Frost Strike's OH attack was generating 10+ runic power though and have fixed that in the SVN. For whatever reason the game files have it as generating RP, so when we split the OH attacks, this bug was introduced. I'll see if we can get a new release pushed soon as that's a pretty big flaw. Even with the change, using Unholy Presence is still a 500 dps gain using our 372 profile.

thebitterfig · 03/04/11, 3:33 PM

Originally Posted by Zimeron

I did find that Frost Strike's OH attack was generating 10+ runic power though and have fixed that in the SVN. For whatever reason the game files have it as generating RP, so when we split the OH attacks, this bug was introduced. I'll see if we can get a new release pushed soon as that's a pretty big flaw. Even with the change, using Unholy Presence is still a 500 dps gain using our 372 profile.

That ought to do it. Going back and checking Dunkelhaar's outputs, the approximately 200 Frost Strikes used at 10 RP per use accounts for the 2000 extra RP that DW was generating over 2h.

xbit · 03/04/11, 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by Demøsthenes

But, after reading this past few post I am now hearing a shift in power of haste in stat weight due to unholy pres dw? And if the 500 dps gain is true at 372 where does this put it at avg 359 ilvl?

Haste has a significant lead now compared to mastery and crit when DW in unholy presence.

At 6.56% haste w/ chardev 8 - Cataclysm Beta

	DPS	STR	Haste	Crit	Mastery	Waiting
Frost Presence	22390	2.47	0.89	0.94	0.78	0.37%
Unholy Presence	22764	2.47	1.33	0.91	0.77	12.25%

At 12.24% haste w/ chardev 8 - Cataclysm Beta

	DPS	STR	Haste	Crit	Mastery	Waiting
Unholy Presence	23105	2.48	1.25	0.94	0.78	9.50%

I didn't sim frost for haste reforging since it's obviously going to be GCD capped and sub-optimal.

This is much closer to reality than what the sim was previously reporting, as I definately spend a lot of time doing nothing in-game in unholy presence. The only thing I haven't been able to confirm (mainly due to lack of free time to test) is whether I also notice the dps increase.

The thing that I can't seem to figure out is why simc seems to value mastery so little, when it always seemed to be a sizeable dps boost in game, in agreement with Consider's stat weights.

Zimeron · 03/05/11, 3:41 AM

Originally Posted by xbit

The thing that I can't seem to figure out is why simc seems to value mastery so little, when it always seemed to be a sizeable dps boost in game, in agreement with Consider's stat weights.

I don't understand how something that increases only ~40% of your dps, where every other stat increases all your dps, is viewed as a large increase. Mastery does increase that ~40% of your dps at a greater percentage than other stats, but in the end it's still only ~40% of your damage. Oddly enough, I have seen no math on where the current stat weights in the OP have come from, nor have I seen any math to prove that mastery should be worth more than other stats. The changes to the PTR, due to the buff to FS and HB, will more than likely change the default action list and with that increase mastery's value, but until then, it's just not that beneficial on live compared to the other options. Granted, there could be a problem in the sim that's significantly screwing something up, but with all the eyes we've had looking at it lately, there should only be some minor kinks left, if any.

I'm also curious why you didn't sim adding hit rating, since it'll increase your melee and HB damage, as well as your KM uptime. While it's doubtful it'll be worth more than haste, since you can take advantage of the faster rune refreshes, I wouldn't be surprised if it was ahead of crit for your profile, like it is for the current 372 profile.

akihex · 03/05/11, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by xbit

At 6.56% haste w/ chardev 8 - Cataclysm Beta

	DPS	STR	Haste	Crit	Mastery	Waiting
Frost Presence	22390	2.47	0.89	0.94	0.78	0.37%
Unholy Presence	22764	2.47	1.33	0.91	0.77	12.25%

Why is there a gain in dps switching from frost to unholy presence even though there aren't enough resources in frost presence (waiting > 0)? Switching increases rune regeneration by 10% (and lowers the gcd) but you loose the overall damage buff of 15% and the 10% buff to runic power generation.

And why doesn't the waiting ratio increase more? Changing the presence one can use about 10% more abilities whereas the number of available gcds increases much faster. Does the attack speed buff of unholy presence increase the rune regeneration in the sim or in the game?

Krab� t · 03/05/11, 2:10 PM

Originally Posted by dunkelhaar

I ran some simulations using the latest SimC Build (406-9).

Frost 2H Unholy Presence: Simulationcraft Results
Frost DW Frost Presence: Simulationcraft Results
Frost DW Unholy Presence: Simulationcraft Results

As you can see, Frost DW UP tops Frost 2H by 2k dps putting us next to Arcane Mages. I know that a raid dummy test is not actually something people like to see, but can someone make some tests (I will when i get home)?

I start wondering why the Damage per Execute starts to increase by 10~30% while using UP over FP for your DW-Specc.
Not only for OB where you might argue with the increased KM-Proccs. Just any Ablility dealt more Dmg while in UP with the same Setup.
This are numbers i got for myself while using Simcraft.

Silarn · 03/05/11, 2:18 PM

Key point here is execute time. Your base execute time is 33% less in UP. The actual DPE is lower, as to be expected.

But provided you have enough more of every attack to cover the 15% damage loss, the resulting DPET would be higher.

Of the SimCraft logs I have seen, this has been the case.

Which is not to say that I agree with these recent results 100%, but I am more than willing to say that they might be on to something.

I am, however, curious as to whether or not the rune bug has been modeled. 1.5s of lost cooldown time per consumption of a Rime proc.

Emoette · 03/05/11, 2:47 PM

Originally Posted by akihex

Why is there a gain in dps switching from frost to unholy presence even though there aren't enough resources in frost presence (waiting > 0)? Switching increases rune regeneration by 10% (and lowers the gcd) but you loose the overall damage buff of 15% and the 10% buff to runic power generation.

And why doesn't the waiting ratio increase more? Changing the presence one can use about 10% more abilities whereas the number of available gcds increases much faster. Does the attack speed buff of unholy presence increase the rune regeneration in the sim or in the game?

Unholy Presence and Haste increase things much more than just being able to use more abilities from the innate rune regeneration. Since frost is so proc heavy, almost everything is increased.

You get more KM procs from the haste, you get more obliterates, which means more rime and overall faster RP generation (2rp more per second based on my simcraft runs, which over a 480second fight is 30 more frost strikes), you get much faster rune regeneration through runic empowerment procs because you're sending 30 more frost strikes, which means more obliterates.

Zimeron · 03/05/11, 5:26 PM

Originally Posted by Silarn

I am, however, curious as to whether or not the rune bug has been modeled. 1.5s of lost cooldown time per consumption of a Rime proc.

I can tell you that we do not model the Rime bug, as we're not aware of such a thing. Can you please elaborate on what it is and provide evidence. Once you do, we'll update the sim accordingly.

Krab�*t, what Silarn said is correct, the DPE for UP is lower, but the DEPT is higher, as expected. Also, sorry I didn't reply to your PM, but your name causes a bug in the forum software preventing me from replying.

Flyx · 03/05/11, 5:45 PM

Originally Posted by Zimeron

I can tell you that we do not model the Rime bug, as we're not aware of such a thing. Can you please elaborate on what it is and provide evidence. Once you do, we'll update the sim accordingly.

Krab�*t, what Silarn said is correct, the DPE for UP is lower, but the DEPT is higher, as expected. Also, sorry I didn't reply to your PM, but your name causes a bug in the forum software preventing me from replying.

Copied from my post on the eu PTR forums in a vain attempt to get it fixed. The actual problem is not with rime at all, it is the howling blast glyph and also outbreak.

The bug:

On live realms and the PTR, upon using a Howling Blast (with Glyph) or an Outbreak, all recharging runes are pushed back by around .5 seconds. (May be more than .5 seconds, I cannot tell exactly)

The observation:

I copied a premade DK as well as my own to the PTR to see if the rune bug had been fixed.

I noticed when on the pre-made DK, with just a basic spec I would have no runes jumping back at all when casting Howling Blast. I logged onto my own DK and there was the rune bug again, with them jumping back half a second all the time.

The only difference between the two was Glyphs.

As soon as I put Glyph of Howling Blast onto the pre-made DK, the bug started occuring, and every rime was pushing my rune regen back half a second every time.

On both DK's the use of Outbreak would cause the delay.

The use of Icy Touch and Plague Strike however did not cause any delay on either character.

The removal of Glyph of Howling Blast resulted in the bug no longer occuring while Howling Blasting on both DK's.

The use of any rune ability (except Howling Blast of course) would cause the runes to jump forward once again. However this is not much use when all runes are on cooldown.

The conclusion:

There must be something wrong with the coding behind the application of diseases in both Outbreak and Glyph of Howling Blast that is causing this rune bug to occur.

So you can see the bug might be very hard to model. If every single rune is on cooldown and you use a Rime proc, you will lose rune time and never get it back. If you have a frost and unholy rune ready and use rime, the frost and unholy rune recharging will be pushed back, but when you obliterate in the next GCD, the runes will jump forward again, meaning no DPS loss. If you use howling blast twice in a row, only the first will push runes back.

Silarn · 03/05/11, 7:23 PM

There is that, yes. I admit I don't know the precise amount of rune time lost - I thought I had heard 1.5 somewhere, but that is probably wrong.

One other thing I wonder about - and maybe I could look at the log and try to figure it out - but SimC is appropriately not counting Rime uses as runes spent, correct?

While you do get the 10 RP from CotG via rime procs, you do not get the other 10 + 10% from a typical HB where a rune is consumed.